A Shot Across Nato's Bows - Russian tanks enter Georgia - Georgians enter South Ossetia - all out war?

youngdan wrote:

Anyone that thinks Medvedev is the boss probably thinks Bush is the boss as well.

There is a few thousand dead. If every one of them had an ak47 the Georgians would not have invaded and the people would be alive. Who can deny that simple fact

The idealists are getting a wake up call. When an invader comes you had better have a gun.

It seems to have been bombs and shells that killed people. A good basement was the best defence. Even better was getting the hell out of there as it is claimed that grenades were thrown into the basements.

http://www.un.org/webcast/sc.html

Yesterdays security council broadcast is on that list. Go to around 11.26 to the actions of the abkhaz, and how they've bombarded georgian villages within ossetia, which has been witnessed first hand by the UNOMEG force. Also how this was 'co-ordinated' with the CIS peace-keeping force.

youngdan wrote:

There is a few thousand dead. If every one of them had an ak47 the Georgians would not have invaded and the people would be alive. Who can deny that simple fact

The idealists are getting a wake up call. When an invader comes you had better have a gun.

Having guns didn't help the situation in the Balkans. It did help with it came to genocide.

It seems that youngdan was a bit premature when he asserted that Russia had taken Gori. It is best to wait for independent confirmation on this. This is what the BBC say:

Quote :

The conflict over South Ossetia also appeared to have widened when Georgia accused Russia of capturing the town of Gori, just 76km (47 miles) from Tbilisi.

"This is a total onslaught," Georgia's National Security Council secretary Alexander Lomaia told the AFP news agency, adding that Georgian troops were pulling back to defend Tbilisi.

Russia's defence ministry quickly issued a statement rejecting the claim, saying there were none of its troops in Gori.

Later, a spokesman for the Georgian interior ministry told the BBC that there had never been Russian troops in Gori.

He said the Russian army had taken up a position just outside the town after destroying a military base and admitted Georgian troops had fled the area without putting up a fight.

BBC - Russian troops in Georgia advance Overall the advance of Russian troops into Georgia proper is a worrying development, though I would stop short of drawing wild conclusions. Let us hope that they will be content with a little intimidation and draw back. In my opinion it is most likely that the move was an attempt to gain as much advantage as possible before negotiation, it happens often enough.

It's still unclear to me just how this all started, though the consensus on this site seems to be that the Georgians stared it. If so then it was indeed a foolish move my Saakashvili. But this isn't really NATO business yet, Georgia is not a member.

My advice is that if you see an invader throwing a grenade into your neighbours basement you should shoot him. Likewise if you see him firing an artillary piece. If you can't hit him with 30 rounds from an automatic rifle then you should have your eyes tested. If you don't have a gun you should get your head tested.

Same tape, but at 25 minutes. U.S. ambassador outwardly condemning the actions of the Russians.

riadach wrote:

Same tape, but at 25 minutes. U.S. ambassador outwardly condemning the actions of the Russians.

ANd at 30 mins, Russian Federation ambassador accuses head of UNOMEG of a lack of objectivity.

Every home should have a machine gun then when the truck pulls up to bring you and your kids to the mass grave you could at least get a few of them. 6 Million Jews were cooked. All they had to fire when the Gestapo came was their peckers.

youngdan wrote:

Every home should have a machine gun then when the truck pulls up to bring you and your kids to the mass grave you could at least get a few of them. 6 Million Jews were cooked. All they had to fire when the Gestapo came was their peckers.

I think you may be surprised about how many civilians bear arms in the Caucasus.

41.14, America's past in Iraq Afghanistan and Serbia is being used against them. I think one main result of this is the realisation of how much america's status and diplomatic influence has been reduced in the world because of those actions.

I apologise if I'm repeating stuff here we already know, but I find the source very interesting, and am amazed how the details of the security council sessions are sanitised in the media.

riadach wrote:

http://www.un.org/webcast/sc.html

Yesterdays security council broadcast is on that list. Go to around 11.26 to the actions of the abkhaz, and how they've bombarded georgian villages within ossetia, which has been witnessed first hand by the UNOMEG force. Also how this was 'co-ordinated' with the CIS peace-keeping force.

I've listened to this carefully. It says that there is no UN presence in South Ossetia and they are reliant on the media.
The bombing of Georgian Villages was 'yesterday' in Abkhazia, not in South Ossetia. There is No UNOMEG force in South Ossetia. In South Ossetia the Russians are part of the peace-keeping force.

The main things going on in Abkhavia seem to be massing of troops along the previous cease fire line and bombing of bases.

Both sides say the other side is committing genocide. It is very hard to know what is going on, but there is no independent report that I have read that disputes that this was started by a large scale attack on the South Ossetian capital by the Georgian army.
Even television is hard to be sure about - some are saying that pictures being shown are not of the areas claimed by the tv stations - they say look for clues like the written languages on signs and so on.


The Georgian internet is down.

riadach wrote:

41.14, America's past in Iraq Afghanistan and Serbia is being used against them. I think one main result of this is the realisation of how much america's status and diplomatic influence has been reduced in the world because of those actions.

I apologise if I'm repeating stuff here we already know, but I find the source very interesting, and am amazed how the details of the security council sessions are sanitised in the media.

America's actions in Serbia are being used against their allies now, but that would have happened regardless of America's reputation. I have a nasty feeling that Chechnya might think the timing is right and we'll have another little bloodbath on our hands. WE were all playing with fire when we started this seccessionist talk but Russia stands to lose as much as anyone.

I would say quite a few but if you have figures post them. Had the Georgians known that they would be pumped full of lead they would not be so worried about whether Ossetia was free or not. They thought they could just go in and kick ass but now they are running. This could escalate to nuclear war easily and if you listen to the talk out of Washington you would start praying. Now Obama is a warmonger

Had they been allowed to secede there would have been no problem

riadach wrote:

41.14, America's past in Iraq Afghanistan and Serbia is being used against them. I think one main result of this is the realisation of how much america's status and diplomatic influence has been reduced in the world because of those actions.

I apologise if I'm repeating stuff here we already know, but I find the source very interesting, and am amazed how the details of the security council sessions are sanitised in the media.

Not at all, thanks Riadach, that was fascinating. All those men is suits telling convenient lies. I'm enlightened, but none the wiser.

cactus flower wrote:

riadach wrote:

http://www.un.org/webcast/sc.html

Yesterdays security council broadcast is on that list. Go to around 11.26 to the actions of the abkhaz, and how they've bombarded georgian villages within ossetia, which has been witnessed first hand by the UNOMEG force. Also how this was 'co-ordinated' with the CIS peace-keeping force.

I've listened to this carefully. It says that there is no UN presence in South Ossetia and they are reliant on the media.
The bombing of Georgian Villages was 'yesterday' in Abkhazia, not in South Ossetia. There is No UNOMEG force in South Ossetia. In South Ossetia the Russians are part of the peace-keeping force.

I apologise, I'm not well up on my georgian geography. However, it is clear from the report, that within abkhazia at least, that Georgian villages have been targeted. The Unomig representative said as much in the broadcast.

Quote :

The main things going on in Abkhavia seem to be massing of troops along the previous cease fire line and bombing of bases.

It has massed heavy artillery and troops along the border, and has targeted, with the acquiesance of the CIS, Georgian villages inside Abhkhazia. One wonders why? Why does that make me less reluctant to believe that cis peacekeepers were involved in attacks on Georgian villages inside South Ossetia?

Quote :

Both sides say the other side is committing genocide. It is very hard to know what is going on, but there is no independent report that I have read that disputes that this was started by a large scale attack on the South Ossetian capital by the Georgian army.
Even television is hard to be sure about - some are saying that pictures being shown are not of the areas claimed by the tv stations - they say look for clues like the written languages on signs and so on.

Perhaps not, but you have been given an independant report that CIS peacekeepers have allowed the bombardment of civilians inside the borders of abkhazia. They made an application for the evacuation of Georgian civilians in the upper Khodori valley within Abkhazia itself, which is nothing short of ethnic cleansing.

youngdan wrote:

I would say quite a few but if you have figures post them. Had the Georgians known that they would be pumped full of lead they would not be so worried about whether Ossetia was free or not. They thought they could just go in and kick ass but now they are running. This could escalate to nuclear war easily and if you listen to the talk out of Washington you would start praying. Now Obama is a warmonger

I think, given that South Ossetia is a gun/drug-smuggling hub within the Caucasus, that they were well aware of the locals gun-wielding capabilities.

However, for an indication... http://www.saferworld.org.uk/publications.php/64/the_caucasus_armed_and_divided

youngdan wrote:

Had they been allowed to secede there would have been no problem

Name one country that has allowed the secession of a part of its country without protest?

For some reason google maps' image of Georgia is blank. There's no cities marked.

AfricanDave wrote:

For some reason google maps' image of Georgia is blank. There's no cities marked.

The same is true for Armenia and Azerbaijan though.

It is, but I thought it strange that it just happens to be in that region that the map is blank.

I don't think it is a coincidence.

Nor do I

youngdan wrote:

I would say quite a few but if you have figures post them. Had the Georgians known that they would be pumped full of lead they would not be so worried about whether Ossetia was free or not. They thought they could just go in and kick ass but now they are running. This could escalate to nuclear war easily and if you listen to the talk out of Washington you would start praying. Now Obama is a warmonger

What does Obama say about this ?

From the Russian Federation's representative -

Quote :

127 US military advisers working in Georgia. 7th August a joint military exercise between Georgia and US "Immediate Response" - that night Georgia attacked.
Russian Federation not surprised. Georgia world record holder in increase in military budget that has increased by 30 times in recent years.
Close cooperation between US and Georgia but did not want to believe that the US gave the green light to Georgia. Georgia used GRAD weapons against South Ossetia - these are not accurate target weapons - large number of civilian dead. 12 Russian Fed peacekeepers died in the early days.

What legal terms can be used - "ethnic cleansing?" 100,000 refugees - is this ethnic cleansing - 2,000 out of 100,000 civilians in the capital died.
Peace keepers there in accordance with agreement signed by Georgia in 1992. "We will not run away like the peace keepers in Srebrenica".

AfricanDave wrote:

Nor do I

Georgia's internet is down.

youngdan wrote:

Had they been allowed to secede there would have been no problem

Life's never so simple, but the Georgians should hve accepted the South Ossetians' wish on this one. It is unlikely that South Ossetia would remain autonomous though, de facto they would have been swallowed by Russia.

I suspect that the West's backing of the Georgian stance was based more on politics than any regard for the Georgian minority in South Ossetia. Let's just hope there was no genocide perpetrated by the Georgians because that will be blood on our hands.