Apologies to [enter member name here] tonys

To tonys

tonys I heartily apologise for causing you distress with my insensitive and useless comments about FF. Lenihan seems to have made a good decision and anyway the whole country should pull together now and try to get through the difficult times that will be ahead.

Machine Nation is about dealing with problems not causing them so I sullied my own guidelines by that one against FF. If mistakes have been made then seeking a solution should be the first option before witch-hunting, burning at the stake and spouting bile.

Again, apologies tonys.

Why are you apologising. Is Tonys blaming the gobshythes in FG for the budget being short 10 billion. He should be apologising to you and all the other saps who are going to pay for it. Post the remarks so that we can see what the fuss is about

youngdan wrote:

Why are you apologising. Is Tonys blaming the gobshythes in FG for the budget being short 10 billion. He should be apologising to you and all the other saps who are going to pay for it. Post the remarks so that we can see what the fuss is about

Ah there's no fuss I just said that if one of our banks go down then FF itself will go down. I don't want to rile people on purpose but I kinda did at that point. Tonys is a fine poster and deserves consideration. The country will be in shite if a bank goes down or is brought down. Fianna Fáil won't be though despite my wishes.

youngdan your predictions are coming true - it's bad bad bad

Things are bad. I refrained from jabbering too much about the gaurantee because the choices were not very appealing. As much as FF are to blame, you could say that the voters are more wrong because they can't handle the truth.

youngdan wrote:

Why are you apologising. Is Tonys blaming the gobshythes in FG for the budget being short 10 billion. He should be apologising to you and all the other saps who are going to pay for it. Post the remarks so that we can see what the fuss is about

You mind your own business and let the man apologise if he wants to.
And another thing, leave the gobshites in FG alone, it’s not their fault either.

There really is no point in blaming anyone now - it is kind of pointless. We don't know how bad it is for the long term but a change should start here however as Pax says on the other thread, the same guys who presided over the boom are now advising on the bust.

Consumer groups seem to be getting something from the banks in terms of a freeze in charges and restriction on the pay of CEOs etc. Lenihan should take advantage of the what the public mood is going to be quite soon, possibly - indignation, disbelief and outrage. There will be people who will kill themselves because of this so it's a lot of responsibility to aim at one political party. However, wouldn't it be something if people opened their eyes to the possibility of demanding something now - like the reduction of CEOs wages and the freezing of bank charges - and getting it? The public can have a voice in this I'm sure - possibly through lobby groups at least.

Auditor #9 wrote:

There really is no point in blaming anyone now - it is kind of pointless. We don't know how bad it is for the long term but a change should start here however as Pax says on the other thread, the same guys who presided over the boom are now advising on the bust.

Consumer groups seem to be getting something from the banks in terms of a freeze in charges and restriction on the pay of CEOs etc. Lenihan should take advantage of the what the public mood is going to be quite soon, possibly - indignation, disbelief and outrage. There will be people who will kill themselves because of this so it's a lot of responsibility to aim at one political party. However, wouldn't it be something if people opened their eyes to the possibility of demanding something now - like the reduction of CEOs wages and the freezing of bank charges - and getting it? The public can have a voice in this I'm sure - possibly through lobby groups at least.

It doesn’t have to be very bad, it will be tough for 2/3 years because of our own shortfall in expected taxes but I’d be reasonably confident by taking the right decisions now we can handle that without too much pain, the banks can take the major hit over time if given that time. The external situation is the major problem, but if the Americans have done enough and can turn their situation around, Europe is still quite strong and we still have 2 million plus people in work, there are worse places to start from.

He can apologise a million times for all I care but by putting it in a public thread it was open to the public. Any issues ye have that is nobodies business should be kept private.

As regards FG, they are gobshythes. They don't have the brains to be different than FF. What is the difference between these 2 parties of gobshythes anyway.

youngdan wrote:

He can apologise a million times for all I care but by putting it in a public thread it was open to the public. Any issues ye have that is nobodies business should be kept private.

As regards FG, they are gobshythes. They don't have the brains to be different than FF. What is the difference between these 2 parties of gobshythes anyway.

Well we've yet to see the full implications of this banking thing - we're trusting the Govt. that they have a fair idea of what's on the books of the banks. I don't know why but I've a feeling they got a nod from Europe to do/for doing this as it's happening elsewhere too and the important thing was stability at that time. So would Fine Gael have done anything differently? They'd argue/they are arguing that IF they had been in power then this wouldn't have happened because they would have been more prudent with budgets and I'm guessing they'd claim they'd have been more cautious with allowing bank lending. Where was the regulator all along after all? Once 100% mortgages came in it should have been a signal for someone to call the regulator and ask him why he was asleep.

We are arguing it elsewhere whether or not it was the fault of the consumer for not behaving as though they had a choice but the truth is there was a very limited range of choice available then and that was acute in Dublin which I blame on an infrastructural cock-up. The commuter belt was a mistake - or the extent of it at least. Youngdan Dublin has often been compared to L.A. in terms of commuting. There is very poor public transport for a city spread out over a wide area and it has been the argument of many of us that the city should have been more compact by using high-rise buildings which would have reduced the need for long commutes, thus there would be less of a need for a transport system spread-out over a vast area.

Some of us even believe there could have been efforts on the part of builders and developers to have the high-rise culture stopped because it's less lucrative than the commuter belt set up. The high-rise pattern works well in other cities on the globe and ties in with the viability of mass public transport - metro, subway, underground. How's that for a conspiracy theory?

Would Fine Gael have done anything differently? I've a feeling youngdan is right and they would have overlooked the regulation of banking as much as FF did.

Quote :

It doesn’t have to be very bad, it will be tough for 2/3 years because of our own shortfall in expected taxes but I’d be reasonably confident by taking the right decisions now we can handle that without too much pain, the banks can take the major hit over time if given that time. The external situation is the major problem, but if the Americans have done enough and can turn their situation around, Europe is still quite strong and we still have 2 million plus people in work, there are worse places to start from.

Well I hope you're right in that it'll be 2/3 years and no more - a lot will depend on the levels that unemployment might reach and the effect that will have (there's nowhere left to emigrate to) but perhaps it's time we took a good look at what has happened and see if there is anything really concrete we can do to prevent the likes of this again or at least cushion ourselves if there are external shocks.

It could be that both Europe and the U.S. will jointly agree on something like another Bretton-Woods if the actions they've taken fail to have any effect. For ourselves I believe we need to be focusing on indigenous industries more and creating conditions for local or national markets so we can consume off each other and have some degree of self-sufficiency. And of course, public systems need to be tightened-up big time and a focus must be on quality.

A bit of irony on your part Auditor #9. You issue a full mea culpa for going against the spirit of the site and your own personal standards. Commendable. In fact, very commendable. You have come out and re-set the standards with more clarity than previously implied. You have identified a problem and sought a solution.

Then on the other hand, you and others, say it's no time to blame anyone for this particular mess we're in. In fact, this is the time we need to find out why things have gone pear shaped. We need to identify the causes, the players and mechanisms and make sure we try to avoid a similar situation down the road. We are rewarding people by refusing to blame the same people for making mistakes. This does nothing to rectify the situation. One who doesn't learn from the past, yadda, yadda, yadda.

Really, Auditor#9, you need to apply your standards externally. You may find that other people don't agree with your standards. Maybe your standards are too harsh or too soft, but we don't do anyone any favours by throwing away standards just because it might hurt their feelings, etc.

The bankers, the government, the developers and the whole property bubble industry has to be reviewed. The people who created the mess should lose their jobs. Boiled down, a banker does nothing but assess risk and reward. They have done a bad job in the past and totally screwed the risk side of the equation in order to bale their sorry asses out of a mess of their own making. Now, if unforeseen circumstances unfold, it is the ordinary wage-earner who has to pay the tab. Is this just? Is this the way business should be conducted?

Peoples in democracies need to start keeping score of their reps and of those who run their economies. A little of Auditor#9\'s humility from the powers-that-be would be start.

Auditor #9 wrote:

It could be that both Europe and the U.S. will jointly agree on something like another Bretton-Woods if the actions they've taken fail to have any effect. For ourselves I believe we need to be focusing on indigenous industries more and creating conditions for local or national markets so we can consume off each other and have some degree of self-sufficiency. And of course, public systems need to be tightened-up big time and a focus must be on quality.

I agree absolutely about the need to widen our indigenous manufacturing base. I was in Germany the other day waiting on a feeder bus, directly across the road there was a large white goods shop with a permanent banner sign listing all the brands they stocked, about ten of them, all German, all major brands, it was a sight to see when you thought about it.


I’d like to see the Government getting directly involved in setting up small scale seed manufacturing companies for anything say a 5% share of the domestic market would sustain before they looked at the export possibilities. A short term make or break period, say 5 years, for each one with a view to an employee buy out for the successful companies at an early stage.
The Government could provide the factory/office space and an experienced project manager with dare I say it, the banks providing seed capital @ zero interest for the short start up period. There would be failures of course, but over time even with a 1 in 3 success rate we could build up a manufacturing base involved in producing high quality design led goods with export possibilities.

I’m pretty sure there are very good reasons why the above wouldn’t work, I’m just not aware of them.

rockyracoon wrote:

The bankers, the government, the developers and the whole property bubble industry has to be reviewed. The people who created the mess should lose their jobs. Boiled down, a banker does nothing but assess risk and reward. They have done a bad job in the past and totally screwed the risk side of the equation in order to bale their sorry asses out of a mess of their own making. Now, if unforeseen circumstances unfold, it is the ordinary wage-earner who has to pay the tab. Is this just? Is this the way business should be conducted?

Peoples in democracies need to start keeping score of their reps and of those who run their economies. A little of Auditor#9's humility from the powers-that-be would be start.

Humility now from the powers-that-be would be very commendable from them but so far ...? The Central Bank governor has come out with something though, which is a start.

In the end it's scary that we as a nation got caught up in the bubble and somehow saw no end to it. Many who said even casually "this can't last" were told off but we needed to have some eye on caution and proportion but we lost it.

This is Finfacts on the Central Bank's assessment of it from yesterday.

Quote :

Irish Economy: Central bank forecasts recessions in 2008 and 2009; Hurley says bad debts and loan losses were not the key issues in discussions on State guarantee for Irish bank system

The bank also warned against measures designed to prop up the property market, saying there are already considerable tax supports and incentives by international standards. It also says it may be time to look at broadening the tax base.

Property-related activities accounted for almost two-thirds of outstanding private sector lending in June.

http://www.finfacts.com/irishfinancenews/article_1014895.shtml

It's either a question of Good Shepherding of the Great Washed now or somehow getting a system of listening to as many opinions as possible and assessing the different angles. I suppose the parties represent that or are supposed to in the first place. It just seems to go around in circles and nothing really changes - it was a big national debt back then and now it's a big personal debt - I really hope it's not going to be like going back to the eighties but moreso I hope that something intelligent is done about it if we're going to be on that road.

I agree with you tonys (nice to see you here) on the need to widen out indigenous manufacturing base, though I see far more potential in developing agriculture because we have the kind of natural agricultural - and renewable - resources that other countries only dream of.

Now is not the time to skimp on capital expenditure but I'd see more value in developing alternative energy (wind especially) than roads, for example.

Irish people, however, are extremely shortsighted when it comes to supporting local industry. The Germans have a strong belief in the power of their national branding but the implications are more local than that. German towns all have their own local bakeries, for example and while there are franchises of big chains - like Mueller, most towns of even a small size, can sustain and are willing to sustain a local manufacturer.

I was speaking to someone involved in a chamber of commerce in the Midlands yesterday about the ripple effects on the economy of a community when a local shop closes down - we have to be more congnisant of the need to act locally and look to our own actions to stem the tidal effects of the recession. Even since the 80s, we don't seem to have cottoned on to the fact that when one person loses their job, that affects everyone in the community.

Kate P wrote:

I agree with you tonys (nice to see you here) on the need to widen out indigenous manufacturing base, though I see far more potential in developing agriculture because we have the kind of natural agricultural - and renewable - resources that other countries only dream of.

Now is not the time to skimp on capital expenditure but I'd see more value in developing alternative energy (wind especially) than roads, for example.

Irish people, however, are extremely shortsighted when it comes to supporting local industry. The Germans have a strong belief in the power of their national branding but the implications are more local than that. German towns all have their own local bakeries, for example and while there are franchises of big chains - like Mueller, most towns of even a small size, can sustain and are willing to sustain a local manufacturer.

I was speaking to someone involved in a chamber of commerce in the Midlands yesterday about the ripple effects on the economy of a community when a local shop closes down - we have to be more congnisant of the need to act locally and look to our own actions to stem the tidal effects of the recession. Even since the 80s, we don't seem to have cottoned on to the fact that when one person loses their job, that affects everyone in the community.

I think there’s a lot in what you say, if people look to themselves, to something small scale they can do for themselves that all helps to keep the wheel turning at a local level.

As you say, agriculture, the environment, there are opportunities in every situation, we just need the imagination to see them. The coming budget will tell us a lot about the creative abilities of the current Government. Cometh the hour, cometh the man or woman? I’m hopeful, but let’s wait and see.

I'm glad that you're hopeful, tonys - I'm despairing. I'm impressed that Brian Lenihan has shown some leadership in dealing with the banks - though I'm a little anxious about what the long term effects of that will be. I'm also very disappointed that while supporting the banks, the government didn't oblige the participating banks to put in place a corresponding support structure for those many, many people who are going to find it very difficult to sustain a two-person mortgage with one person working. It will be interesting to see how strained the quality of mercy is when they are the ones calling in their bonds...

The Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise has really, really disappointed me - I think she's miles out of her depth and should ask to go back to Agriculture, where Brendan Smith is floundering. She was in her element there. I'm not happy with that Enterprise's obsequious slavering over foreign investors at the expense of local companies. We need more Elans and Iralcos, not more Wyeth and Boston Scientific.

Kate P wrote:

I'm glad that you're hopeful, tonys - I'm despairing. I'm impressed that Brian Lenihan has shown some leadership in dealing with the banks - though I'm a little anxious about what the long term effects of that will be. I'm also very disappointed that while supporting the banks, the government didn't oblige the participating banks to put in place a corresponding support structure for those many, many people who are going to find it very difficult to sustain a two-person mortgage with one person working. It will be interesting to see how strained the quality of mercy is when they are the ones calling in their bonds...

The Tánaiste and Minister for Enterprise has really, really disappointed me - I think she's miles out of her depth and should ask to go back to Agriculture, where Brendan Smith is floundering. She was in her element there. I'm not happy with that Enterprise's obsequious slavering over foreign investors at the expense of local companies. We need more Elans and Iralcos, not more Wyeth and Boston Scientific.

I’m always hopeful, for the life of me I can’t see the point of being otherwise. Where you are is not nearly as important as the direction you’re headed.

Funnily enough, I'm neither hopeful nor despairing. There is a sentiment out there that we should forget everything and believe in some bright and shiny future which will be revealed in the coming weeks. If someone sucker's me once, I can blame them. If they sucker me twice, I've only myself to blame.

Unless, you're a banker, it's everyone for themselves. I didn't buy the patriotic tripe last year about borrowing to get in on the property game and I don't buy it now. (I also didn't take the advice to "top" myself either.)

Imo, every individual has to look at their own financial situation and make a solid plan for the future. One has to control costs; use debt wisely if at all; and think of alternative income sources in case their primary source is affected. Given the potential national liabilities that have been incurred on the nation balance sheet, an exit strategy has to be contemplated - either physically or financially.

It maybe an unintented or an intended aspect of the bail-out legislation that the individual is somewhat cast adrift. The consequences will be dealt with individually anyway. If one was an agency worker, I suspect that all the palaver in the media would be met with a wry grin. This social aspect is the basis of their existence.

While others may wholely disagree with my analysis, as is their inalienable right, it can only be prudent, imo, to take responsibility for one's own situation. There will be some social safety nets available but they are only short term and no solution in the long term. We have to do what bankers have failed miserably to do - manage our risk reward factors to a successful conclusion. While the bankers (too big too fail) can rely on the tax-payer, as the amount of national wealth shrinks in Western economies, the individual will have to rely on their own financial management skills to make the best of the situation.

There's two ways to deal with the future, imo. Go into it with eyes wide open and with a plan (any sort of plan) or to rely on the system to come up with a quick fix every time a crisis occurs and hope for the best; hope that you can pay for an expensive mortgage, etc.

Of course, there is a third way, and that's to scramble and claw your way to the top of the heap in corporate Ireland. Top jobs, in my estimation, are TD, lawyer, banker, insurance and executive in a top multi-national. gl all

The mindset will have to change. The idea of the government doing this or that to start business's is removed from reality. Why should I start a business. I don't need the government as a partner, sucking off 40%. They are an unwelcome luxury I can no longer afford. Until they shag off nobody except a kamikazi pilot will risk their necks. Get ready for plenty of unemployment

youngdan wrote:

The mindset will have to change. The idea of the government doing this or that to start business's is removed from reality. Why should I start a business. I don't need the government as a partner, sucking off 40%. They are an unwelcome luxury I can no longer afford. Until they shag off nobody except a kamikazi pilot will risk their necks. Get ready for plenty of unemployment

Are you against any form of government involvement in business start-ups? Or do you think, youngdan, there is a role for local government in new business start-ups? Is it a financial objection? Or something else? I am curious to know because I am in the process of doing something by way of a company establishment here and it is a real eye-opener.

tonys wrote:

Kate P wrote:

I agree with you tonys (nice to see you here) on the need to widen out indigenous manufacturing base, though I see far more potential in developing agriculture because we have the kind of natural agricultural - and renewable - resources that other countries only dream of.

Now is not the time to skimp on capital expenditure but I'd see more value in developing alternative energy (wind especially) than roads, for example.

Irish people, however, are extremely shortsighted when it comes to supporting local industry. The Germans have a strong belief in the power of their national branding but the implications are more local than that. German towns all have their own local bakeries, for example and while there are franchises of big chains - like Mueller, most towns of even a small size, can sustain and are willing to sustain a local manufacturer.

I was speaking to someone involved in a chamber of commerce in the Midlands yesterday about the ripple effects on the economy of a community when a local shop closes down - we have to be more congnisant of the need to act locally and look to our own actions to stem the tidal effects of the recession. Even since the 80s, we don't seem to have cottoned on to the fact that when one person loses their job, that affects everyone in the community.

I think there’s a lot in what you say, if people look to themselves, to something small scale they can do for themselves that all helps to keep the wheel turning at a local level.

As you say, agriculture, the environment, there are opportunities in every situation, we just need the imagination to see them. The coming budget will tell us a lot about the creative abilities of the current Government. Cometh the hour, cometh the man or woman? I’m hopeful, but let’s wait and see.

The first thing we need is a bit of realism and honesty. At this stage all talk of keeping all the NDP capital projects has got be forgotten. The only capital works that make sense to me are large scale renewable energy projects.

Any evidence of any great imagination in the government parties? or in any of the other parties? A couple of talented people in a Dáil of 166 the rest of them disrupting the work of civil servants with queries that the punters calling into their clinics should have the gumption to try and find the answers to themselves. Recessions do provide opportunities but the political courage and imagination have to be in attendance as well. They aren`t.

By the way, tonys, you`d be one of the posters off politics.ie i`d have least time for. The reason being is that you`re not crazy and you`re not fanatical and you`re not stupid. You`re just an opportunist who has decided that Fianna Fáil is the best opportunity to scramble up the greasy pole. On politics.ie you devoted your time to trying to defend the indefensible and the incompetent simply because they had the virtue to be in Fianna Fáil. Worst of all is the fact that you are intelligent and that`s what would make it so sad if it wasn`t so serious. Your mob has treated the politics of this country as being like a sport where it doesn`t matter what happens during the course of the game as long as you`re on the winning side. Does the "S" in your name stand for Squealer out of "Animal Farm."?

The best of luck Slim with your venture. Dealing with government officials is a torture unknown to most. They are a huge cost, a huge delayer of plans and just a huge pain in the whole.

The worst thing is their mindset when they think you owe them something. I sold up shop and they can get their extortion somewhere else.

My mindset gaurantees that small businesses will not be started up

youngdan wrote:

The best of luck Slim with your venture. Dealing with government officials is a torture unknown to most. They are a huge cost, a huge delayer of plans and just a huge pain in the whole.

The worst thing is their mindset when they think you owe them something. I sold up shop and they can get their extortion somewhere else.

My mindset gaurantees that small businesses will not be started up

I am in Switzerland, youngdan, and things are different here. I will explain in more detail later when I have another round of meetings behind me. Thank you for your good wishes.