Apologies to [enter member name here] tonys

Slim Buddha wrote:

youngdan wrote:

The best of luck Slim with your venture. Dealing with government officials is a torture unknown to most. They are a huge cost, a huge delayer of plans and just a huge pain in the whole.

The worst thing is their mindset when they think you owe them something. I sold up shop and they can get their extortion somewhere else.

My mindset gaurantees that small businesses will not be started up

I am in Switzerland, youngdan, and things are different here. I will explain in more detail later when I have another round of meetings behind me. Thank you for your good wishes.

I would like to add mine

cactus flower wrote:

Slim Buddha wrote:

youngdan wrote:

The best of luck Slim with your venture. Dealing with government officials is a torture unknown to most. They are a huge cost, a huge delayer of plans and just a huge pain in the whole.

The worst thing is their mindset when they think you owe them something. I sold up shop and they can get their extortion somewhere else.

My mindset gaurantees that small businesses will not be started up

I am in Switzerland, youngdan, and things are different here. I will explain in more detail later when I have another round of meetings behind me. Thank you for your good wishes.

I would like to add mine

Thank you cactus flower. Going about this in Switzerland is a real eye-opener. Because my colleagues and I have not yet decided which Kanton we will locate the company, the cantonal authorities in 5 cantons are effectively selling us their cantons advantages (for example 8.5% corporation tax in Kanton Schwyz) and so on. It is so very very different to anything I have ever experienced in dealing with local government.

Look for Guarantees !

Slim Buddha wrote:

Going about this in Switzerland is a real eye-opener. Because my colleagues and I have not yet decided which Kanton we will locate the company, the cantonal authorities in 5 cantons are effectively selling us their cantons advantages (for example 8.5% corporation tax in Kanton Schwyz) and so on. It is so very very different to anything I have ever experienced in dealing with local government.

Very best of luck Slim. Knock'em bandy. Does Switzerland offer a better start-up environment for business than the EU, or specific EU countries? Or do yeese just like the Swiss?

rockyracoon wrote:

Slim Buddha wrote:

. . .I would like to add mine

Thank you cactus flower. Going about this in Switzerland is a real eye-opener. Because my colleagues and I have not yet decided which Kanton we will locate the company, the cantonal authorities in 5 cantons are effectively selling us their cantons advantages (for example 8.5% corporation tax in Kanton Schwyz) and so on. It is so very very different to anything I have ever experienced in dealing with local government.

Very best of luck Slim. Knock'em bandy. Does Switzerland offer a better start-up environment for business than the EU, or specific EU countries? Or do yeese just like the Swiss?[/quote]

Rocky, there are 26 cantons in Switzerland all in fierce competition to attract companies in, domestic and foreign. Ours will be a start-up. I have been, for example, to Kanton Zug to explain what we want to do. I was assigned a "partner" from the Kanton's economic development unit. He puts me in touch with planning department officials, tax officials, the canton's labour department etc. where he designates a contact person in each department. He also liaises with central government on my behalf. Through him, I get straight to the person dealing with my application in every single department of local government. If I have a problem, he fixes it. He is my liaison in the 3 way relationship between me, Kanton Zug and the Chamber of Commerce. Any legislative measure affecting my business, he knows about it and advises me on how best to deal with the legal authorities in the Kanton to ensure my business is compliant.

He is my "Partner" in the Kanton. It is working amazingly well so far. Other Kantons have a similar system in place. I am flabbergasted at how efficient it is. Early days yet however, but I hope this approach is maintained. I am looking for the "catch" as it were but have seen none yet. This below is interesting.

http://www.zug.ch/behoerden/volkswirtschaftsdirektion/economic-promotion

Nice. There may be a few hiccups here and there but that is to be expected. Anything this well organised and funded is meant to work - ie it's not a gimmick. From what I understand, the Swiss don't do gimmicks.

A start-up in a recessionary period will be a wee bit more difficult, I imagine, but when yeese come out the other end, you'll be all the stronger for it.

Again, the very best. Forget luck - just knock'em bandy!

anmajornarthainig wrote:

Any evidence of any great imagination in the government parties? or in any of the other parties? A couple of talented people in a Dáil of 166 the rest of them disrupting the work of civil servants with queries that the punters calling into their clinics should have the gumption to try and find the answers to themselves. Recessions do provide opportunities but the political courage and imagination have to be in attendance as well. They aren`t.

We haven’t been in this situation for twenty years, we have a different bunch at the helm now so we’ll just have to wait and see on that. I know it’s not quite the same as making up your mind before the fact and jumping in with your two feet, but it’s the best I can do in the circumstances.

anmajornarthainig wrote:

By the way, tonys, you`d be one of the posters off politics.ie i`d have least time for. The reason being is that you`re not crazy and you`re not fanatical and you`re not stupid. You`re just an opportunist who has decided that Fianna Fáil is the best opportunity to scramble up the greasy pole. On politics.ie you devoted your time to trying to defend the indefensible and the incompetent simply because they had the virtue to be in Fianna Fáil. Worst of all is the fact that you are intelligent and that`s what would make it so sad if it wasn`t so serious. Your mob has treated the politics of this country as being like a sport where it doesn`t matter what happens during the course of the game as long as you`re on the winning side.

It never ceases to amaze me the variety of reasons (apologies to the word) some people use to explain to themselves an opinion opposite to their own, the one constant is that this opposite view cannot be sincerely held because otherwise questions would have to be asked and that would never do.

BTW, On the greasy pole thing, been there done that a long time ago, the only scrambling I do now is with eggs (a little butter & low heat is my secret).
I had a last line but I won’t bother, I don’t think the site would stand for it.

Auditor 9, I had to pinch myself when I read your original post on this thread. I don't know exactly what transipired between you and Tonys but I'm astounded by the apparent suggestion that the tough criticism due to Fianna Fail because of the economic crisis ought to be tempered in case personal feelings might be affected. Maybe I've misunderstood you. Fianna Fail's handling of the economy is a thorough disgrace and, in the interests of the 4 million people in this country, the majority of whom did not in fact vote for them, they ought to be held accountable for every irresponsible decision they have made. They ought to be embarrassed and ashamed. They should apologise and make ammends in every way possible. The incompetence, greed and complacency that have led to this situation should be fully understood if it is to be avoided in future. For sure, there are many individuals who are responsible in their own way and a substantial minority of the electorate fall into that category. But governments are supposed to manage the needs of the many and not pander to the greed of the selfish. We can't eliminate the latter but we can make it hard for them to do their worst, as they have done here. Fiana Fail have in fact elevated and adored the selfish and the greedy - encouraged and subsidised them at every possible turn with no thought for the consequences.

I agree with Tonys that individuals need to take responsibility for themselves as much as possible. Although I would never vote for them I think it is arguable the FG are a marginally less reckless political party who would have avoided some of the most vulgar excesses of the last 15 years or so. But of course there's many a Fine Gaeler who has been happy to reap personal benefit from policies that he or she have opposed in public debate. At local level, Fine Gael is also involved in some of the dirtiest politics I've ever seen. They hav a virulent dislike of Sinn Fein and an inexplicable superiority complex about what in fact are equally violent and bloody histories. Fianna Fail have been the primary beneficiaries of this tribalism - and many is the decent SF initiative that has been scuppered out sheer peevishness by local FF and FG politicians acting in concert.

Aragon I simply do not want to see a repeat here of the going around in circles that occurs on p.ie with regards FF or FG or whoever. I found myself slipping into it but it's not constructive nor is it destructive of FF (rather the opposite) nor does it address the mindset you describe above - greed, incompetence, short-sightedness, shorttermism and opportunism, adherence to no plan, lack of respect for planning professionals unless imposed upon by the EU and even then there's squirming out from under - Oh no the rant begins again.

There are plenty in FF who deserve respect and these people must be appealed to but I believe it's a general process of recognition, acceptance and education that we must go through first, almost at an individual level. I believe one of the keys is information - good, proper information delivered in an accessible way. Anger and rage prevent this from getting delivered (ever try to change your car wheel/oil or brakes with a desperate hatred and anger on you ) but delivered it must, this good information. The truth must out about these goings on.

I just don't want to sully the sparkling forum with spit, bile and bad temper.

Listen folks, Auditor 9 didn’t need to apologise, I’ve already said that.

I am not FF, I do not represent FF, I’m not even a member of FF. I am a supporter of FF and you can take it I won’t be apologising for that any time soon.
FF are a party who are prepared to take risks where others wouldn’t, I know that and am prepared to take the bad with the good, they are a party who are probably better suited to dealing with hard times that running with the good.

I have no problem with criticism of FF, just as well given the Irish propensity for whinging & moaning about everything, but and here’s my but so to speak, try to keep expressions of outrage at the lack of perfection, hindsight dressed up as prior knowledge and woe is me to an acceptable level.

Thank you.

tonys wrote:

Listen folks, Auditor 9 didn’t need to apologise, I’ve already said that.

I am not FF, I do not represent FF, I’m not even a member of FF. I am a supporter of FF and you can take it I won’t be apologising for that any time soon.
FF are a party who are prepared to take risks where others wouldn’t, I know that and am prepared to take the bad with the good, they are a party who are probably better suited to dealing with hard times that running with the good.

I have no problem with criticism of FF, just as well given the Irish propensity for whinging & moaning about everything, but and here’s my but so to speak, try to keep expressions of outrage at the lack of perfection, hindsight dressed up as prior knowledge and woe is me to an acceptable level.

Thank you.

The outrage at this situation is being expressed precisely because of the clear warnings that were made even as long as a decade ago that this outcome was inevitable. It may have been a suprise to you Tonys, but it was indeed predicted by many. That said, I can remember you poo-pooing the very notion of a severe crash on p.ie and ridiculing those who were insisting that it was imminent. Fianna Fail weren't taking any risks for themselves or their sponsors, clearly.

Auditor #9 wrote:

Aragon I simply do not want to see a repeat here of the going around in circles that occurs on p.ie with regards FF or FG or whoever. I found myself slipping into it but it's not constructive nor is it destructive of FF (rather the opposite) nor does it address the mindset you describe above - greed, incompetence, short-sightedness, shorttermism and opportunism, adherence to no plan, lack of respect for planning professionals unless imposed upon by the EU and even then there's squirming out from under - Oh no the rant begins again.

There are plenty in FF who deserve respect and these people must be appealed to but I believe it's a general process of recognition, acceptance and education that we must go through first, almost at an individual level. I believe one of the keys is information - good, proper information delivered in an accessible way. Anger and rage prevent this from getting delivered (ever try to change your car wheel/oil or brakes with a desperate hatred and anger on you ) but delivered it must, this good information. The truth must out about these goings on.

I just don't want to sully the sparkling forum with spit, bile and bad temper.

I wholeheartedly agree with all this - especially about the need for solid, objective information -hence the thread I started about the media who I think have spectacularly failed to stay objective - not least because of their huge dependence on property based advertising. On the other hand, there is a need for articulately expressed anger and impatience at what has happened. It was enitrely predictable and avoidable.

[quote="tonys.[/quote]It never ceases to amaze me the variety of reasons (apologies to the word) some people use to explain to themselves an opinion opposite to their own, the one constant is that this opposite view cannot be sincerely held because otherwise questions would have to be asked and that would never do.

It never ceases to amaze me how people choose to mistake criticism of them as being bigotry and narrow-mindedness on the part of the critic.