A Shot Across Nato's Bows - Russian tanks enter Georgia - Georgians enter South Ossetia - all out war?

Checkoslovakia maybe but I did not follow it too closely. The Soviet Union itself was smooth considering what was involved. California seceding will be a good test. Canada is close as well. Scotland will hardly be bombed if it decides to break.

Any sane person is less willing to get themselves killed for foolishness than they were

How about this scenario. Say Obama is president and the confederate states decide to secede again. Do you think anyone up here would give a bollix

cactus flower wrote:

youngdan wrote:

I would say quite a few but if you have figures post them. Had the Georgians known that they would be pumped full of lead they would not be so worried about whether Ossetia was free or not. They thought they could just go in and kick ass but now they are running. This could escalate to nuclear war easily and if you listen to the talk out of Washington you would start praying. Now Obama is a warmonger

What does Obama say about this ?

From the Russian Federation's representative -

Quote :

127 US military advisers working in Georgia. 7th August a joint military exercise between Georgia and US "Immediate Response" - that night Georgia attacked.
Russian Federation not surprised. Georgia world record holder in increase in military budget that has increased by 30 times in recent years.
Close cooperation between US and Georgia but did not want to believe that the US gave the green light to Georgia. Georgia used GRAD weapons against South Ossetia - these are not accurate target weapons - large number of civilian dead. 12 Russian Fed peacekeepers died in the early days.

What legal terms can be used - "ethnic cleansing?" 100,000 refugees - is this ethnic cleansing - 2,000 out of 100,000 civilians in the capital died.
Peace keepers there in accordance with agreement signed by Georgia in 1992. "We will not run away like the peace keepers in Srebrenica".

I think the first thing he should say, is how, when there are maximum 120,000 civilians in South Ossetia, both ethnic Georgians and ethnic Ossetians, are there 100,00 refugees? Why are there 100,000 refugess, when the UNHCR has only documented 3,000 on the russian side of the border? Why has its peacekeepers, who wish to prevent a massacre like what happened in srebrenica, permitted abkhazian forces to bomb georgian villages within its own borders?

youngdan wrote:

Checkoslovakia maybe but I did not follow it too closely. The Soviet Union itself was smooth considering what was involved. California seceding will be a good test. Canada is close as well. Scotland will hardly be bombed if it decides to break.

Perhaps protest doesn't automatically mean bombing.

Let's suggest that a pseudo-state sets itself up in America, with a particular ethnic make up run by formers members of a state which wishes to exert an unnatural influence over the U.S.. Let us also suggest that this pseudo-state is criminal in nature, it is involved in drug smuggling and gun smuggling in the area. It is also fairly democratic, as it denies ethnic georgians a voice in its vote, has made attacks on a rival movement which seeks autonomy within the United States, and attempted to assasinate its leader. Lets say there are reports that it has been attacking pro-American civilians within the area. That it has been armed by the above external power. Could you imagine a smooth resolution?

riadach wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

youngdan wrote:

I would say quite a few but if you have figures post them. Had the Georgians known that they would be pumped full of lead they would not be so worried about whether Ossetia was free or not. They thought they could just go in and kick ass but now they are running. This could escalate to nuclear war easily and if you listen to the talk out of Washington you would start praying. Now Obama is a warmonger

What does Obama say about this ?

From the Russian Federation's representative -

Quote :

127 US military advisers working in Georgia. 7th August a joint military exercise between Georgia and US "Immediate Response" - that night Georgia attacked.
Russian Federation not surprised. Georgia world record holder in increase in military budget that has increased by 30 times in recent years.
Close cooperation between US and Georgia but did not want to believe that the US gave the green light to Georgia. Georgia used GRAD weapons against South Ossetia - these are not accurate target weapons - large number of civilian dead. 12 Russian Fed peacekeepers died in the early days.

What legal terms can be used - "ethnic cleansing?" 100,000 refugees - is this ethnic cleansing - 2,000 out of 100,000 civilians in the capital died.
Peace keepers there in accordance with agreement signed by Georgia in 1992. "We will not run away like the peace keepers in Srebrenica".

I think the first thing he should say, is how, when there are maximum 120,000 civilians in South Ossetia, both ethnic Georgians and ethnic Ossetians, are there 100,00 refugees? Why are there 100,000 refugess, when the UNHCR has only documented 3,000 on the russian side of the border? Why has its peacekeepers, who wish to prevent a massacre like what happened in srebrenica, permitted abkhazian forces to bomb georgian villages within its own borders?

Was he counting the 60,000 who left in 1992? Isn't UNOMID the peace keeping force in Abhkazia, not the Russian force? I'm not sure of this.

cactus flower wrote:

riadach wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

youngdan wrote:

I would say quite a few but if you have figures post them. Had the Georgians known that they would be pumped full of lead they would not be so worried about whether Ossetia was free or not. They thought they could just go in and kick ass but now they are running. This could escalate to nuclear war easily and if you listen to the talk out of Washington you would start praying. Now Obama is a warmonger

What does Obama say about this ?

From the Russian Federation's representative -

Quote :

127 US military advisers working in Georgia. 7th August a joint military exercise between Georgia and US "Immediate Response" - that night Georgia attacked.
Russian Federation not surprised. Georgia world record holder in increase in military budget that has increased by 30 times in recent years.
Close cooperation between US and Georgia but did not want to believe that the US gave the green light to Georgia. Georgia used GRAD weapons against South Ossetia - these are not accurate target weapons - large number of civilian dead. 12 Russian Fed peacekeepers died in the early days.

What legal terms can be used - "ethnic cleansing?" 100,000 refugees - is this ethnic cleansing - 2,000 out of 100,000 civilians in the capital died.
Peace keepers there in accordance with agreement signed by Georgia in 1992. "We will not run away like the peace keepers in Srebrenica".

I think the first thing he should say, is how, when there are maximum 120,000 civilians in South Ossetia, both ethnic Georgians and ethnic Ossetians, are there 100,00 refugees? Why are there 100,000 refugess, when the UNHCR has only documented 3,000 on the russian side of the border? Why has its peacekeepers, who wish to prevent a massacre like what happened in srebrenica, permitted abkhazian forces to bomb georgian villages within its own borders?

Was he counting the 60,000 who left in 1992? Isn't UNOMID the peace keeping force in Abhkazia, not the Russian force? I'm not sure of this.

UNOMIG is, but there are CIS peacekeepers there too. Listen to the announcement at 11 minutes again.

If there is one thing for sure nobody cares about the Georgians in Ossetia. Weren they being badly treated? Obama says nothing as he knows nothing. However after being instructed by Brezinsky who is his handler he has plenty to say. I said a few weeks ago that Brezinsky never would die and he is trouble http://www.rense.com/general82/indt.htm

youngdan wrote:

If there is one thing for sure nobody cares about the Georgians in Ossetia. Weren they being badly treated?

Well you certainly don't as you said there would be no problems if South Ossetia seceded. The reason given for ignoring the 2006 referendum on independence internationally was the lack of ethnic Georgian participation. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_ossetia#Political_status

If you are saying that California decides to secede and they are hassling Americans then it is simple. They had better get the flock out of there because if they think I am coming to help them they are crazy. Why did they vote the democrats in and they wouldn't be in the predicament. As regards drug running, they can run all they like as they should be legal. None of my business if a lad wants to do drugs why should I think I should live his life. I would like every state to secede and go back to the way the Founders wanted it. After the Revolution there were plenty of Tories. Some went to Canada and the rest were fine and not molested.

I saw where 99% of the Ossetians wanted freedom and most have Russian passports. If Suckawilley gets killed that is his own fault but he might get millions killed in the meantime.

905 Can you come into the real world long enough to tell us what you would do to help the Georgians in Ossetia. Just one moment of reality out of you would be a Godsend

youngdan wrote:

If you are saying that California decides to secede and they are hassling Americans then it is simple. They had better get the flock out of there because if they think I am coming to help them they are crazy. Why did they vote the democrats in and they wouldn't be in the predicament. As regards drug running, they can run all they like as they should be legal. None of my business if a lad wants to do drugs why should I think I should live his life. I would like every state to secede and go back to the way the Founders wanted it. After the Revolution there were plenty of Tories. Some went to Canada and the rest were fine and not molested.

Last time I'm going to try to hypothetical situation to construe an argument with you, youngdan.

Quote :

I saw where 99% of the Ossetians wanted freedom and most have Russian passports. If Suckawilley gets killed that is his own fault but he might get millions killed in the meantime.

30% are ethnic Georgians, and there is large support of an ethnic Ossetian who wants strong autonomy within Georgia (there was an attempted assasination upon him and various party members' homes were attacked). I can thus severly doubt that 99% figure. I do not believe it was an internationally observed referendum either.

The first part of your post makes no sense to me.

The second part notes that 99% of South Ossetia voted in favour of independence. Riadach, it was internationally observed, or dare you question the truth of Wiki?

Quote :

According to the Tskhinvali election authorities, the referendum turned out a majority for independence from Georgia where 99% of South Ossetian voters supported independence and the turnout for the vote was 95%[8] and the referendum was monitored by a team of 34 international observers from Germany, Austria, Poland, Sweden and other countries at 78 polling stations[9].

To which I reply: well it was you who raised their maltreatment. 70-80% of South Ossetians hold Russian passports, which leaves plenty of room for the 20-30% of the population that's thought to be Georgian.

I saw the 99% figure on another thread so who knows how accurate it is. That was the election result. So Riadach how are you going to protect the Geogians in Ossetia.

905 wrote:

The first part of your post makes no sense to me.

The second part notes that 99% of South Ossetia voted in favour of independence. Riadach, it was internationally observed, or dare you question the truth of Wiki?

Quote :

According to the Tskhinvali election authorities, the referendum turned out a majority for independence from Georgia where 99% of South Ossetian voters supported independence and the turnout for the vote was 95%[8] and the referendum was monitored by a team of 34 international observers from Germany, Austria, Poland, Sweden and other countries at 78 polling stations[9].

To which I reply: well it was you who raised their maltreatment. 70-80% of South Ossetians hold Russian passports, which leaves plenty of room for the 20-30% of the population that's thought to be Georgian.

Oh, I had just presumed.

So 99% of 95% of the population voted for secession? That does not leave a lot of room for the ethnic georgians either.

I'm not sure them sums add up myself, hence my raising the question of wiki's reliabililty. If they do add up then it really shows the international community's (including Russia) concerns about the ethnic Georgians in a funny light.

The source they use to assert that these peacekeepers came is actually georgian, so it probably can't be trusted. It indicates, however, that neither can these international observers.

http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=14058

Some points.

The 'unrecognized republic’s Press and Information Committee said' that these had arrived, it was not confirmed by any other source.

The 'observation team [is] led by Aleksey Martinov will monitor the elections at 78 polling stations.' however the bould Aleksey is 'is acting secretary of the Community for Democracy and Human Rights – an organization that was set up by secessionist leaders of South Ossetia, Abkhazia and Transdnestria'.

Also leading this illustrious group was 'Natalia Vitrenko' who is head of the 'Ukrainian Progressive Socialist Party who is known for her anti-western rhetoric and who advocates the international recognition of breakaway Transdnestria in Moldova.'

Hmmm.

This source only proves one thing, either the South Ossetians are masters of propaganda, or they share that ability with the Georgians.

There is no indication that these are independant international observers.

Neither of you two want to deal with reality so after some sleep you can say how you would help the Georgians

youngdan wrote:

I saw the 99% figure on another thread so who knows how accurate it is. That was the election result. So Riadach how are you going to protect the Geogians in Ossetia.

With my ak47 I imagine. Perhaps I'll threaten to teach fourteen year old Russians about fisting until due regard is paid to them

I'm not sure what answer you're expecting me to give on this one. Can I state that I am worried for the civilians on both sides, but until it has been indepently confirmed, I shall not put much weight in claims by the South Ossetian official, especially given how farcical their election observers seem to be.

Would you like to see the results of their presidential elections and referendum in 2006?

http://www.regnum.ru/english/737823.html

Quote :

99% of South Ossetian voters approve independence
Read it in Russian

Chair of the CEC of South Ossetia Bella Pliyeva announced Nov 13 at the International Press Center in Tskhinval tentative results of the referendum on national independence and presidential election held yesterday in South Ossetia, REGNUM correspondent reports. According to Pliyeva, 99% of registered voters gave their votes for the independence. 96% voted for the candidacy of the acting president Eduard Kokoity. Voter turnout in ballot stations made Nov 12 95.2% of South Ossetian voters.

What a glorious man he must be. To mobilise both a 95% turn out, and attain 96% of votes for himself. Saddam himself would have been envious. I think we can safely assume from this how democratic, truthful and trustworthy the republic of Ossetia actually is.

http://www.regnum.ru/english/georgia/1039494.html

This is getting more and more like Chechnya by the day.

Let's see, youngdan's reality. Russians have captured Gori, Georgia's US supplied army could have been easily beaten off with a few trusty AKs, Georgia is led by a man named Suckawilley.

To help Georgia I would say everyone should grab an ak47 and secede like fuck. That should sort out all their problems.

There is no protecting them now. Their only hope is to head south and pray the Russians don't follow. No sign of the Russians stopping yet though.
How would life have been for them in a free Ossetia or even one that joined with Russia. Were it intolerable they could have sold out and moved.

905. This is everyones reality but yours. The Georgian army supplied by the US are running like hell. You are the only one on Earth that thinks Gori is not captured and finally Ossetia did secede. You are even more clueless to reality than usual

The more I read about the government of South Ossetia, the more it seems to me to be like a criminal cabal, with involvement with the KGB and Russian, who usurped a government and who are willing to lie their way to achieve their aims for their statelet.

youngdan wrote:

There is no protecting them now. Their only hope is to head south and pray the Russians don't follow. No sign of the Russians stopping yet though.
How would life have been for them in a free Ossetia or even one that joined with Russia. Were it intolerable they could have sold out and moved.

I would agree with the first part. The second part is generally known as ethnic cleansing and is frowned upon.

Can you confirm that Gori was captured? I can confirm that Georgia said it was captrured and later took that back.

youngdan wrote:

905. This is everyones reality but yours. The Georgian army supplied by the US are running like hell. You are the only one on Earth that thinks Gori is not captured and finally Ossetia did secede. You are even more clueless to reality than usual

Considering how mountainous the south Caucasus are, perhaps the old ficht and fliend philosophy would actually be more successful than a stand and fight approach. If this war becomes irregular, the Russian army may find itself in an inextricable position. Indeed, it was for the relative safety of these mountains from Mongol cavalry, that drove the Ossetians into the crading arms of the Caucuses from their home by the open steppes near the river Don in the firstplace. Russia faced a less difficult terrain in Chechnya and see how it suffered.

It depends on what the Russians want. I think they only want to gain advantage for negotiations, I can't see them conquering the area.