A Shot Across Nato's Bows - Russian tanks enter Georgia - Georgians enter South Ossetia - all out war?

cactus flower wrote:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/pdf/RebuildingAmericasDefenses.pdf

Text of "Rebuilding America's Defenses" (PNAC) here.

Interesting, cactusflower. This is something I have suspected for a long time, which is why I despair of the idiot far-right wingnuts on P.ie who are soundbyte cheerleaders for Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz and the rest of the gruesome cabal in the White House. I don't labour under any illusion that Putin is any kind of angel but actual US policy in Europe is very threatening and we should always suspect US motives.

Europe is Greece to the US's Rome, with the Visigoths and Huns heads looming over the horizon...

cactus flower wrote:

Europe is Greece to the US's Rome, with the Visigoths and Huns heads looming over the horizon...

BTW cactusflower, this is a marvellous link for researching globalisation

http://www.project-syndicate.org/

Just thought I'd tell you

Slim Buddha wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

Europe is Greece to the US's Rome, with the Visigoths and Huns heads looming over the horizon...

BTW cactusflower, this is a marvellous link for researching globalisation

http://www.project-syndicate.org/

Just thought I'd tell you

Thanks Slim Budda - nice site. 905 would be pleased to see the writings of Chris Patten featured there.

just look at it
http://thebrainpolice.blogspot.com/
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRl3qArJO-o

A lot of very interesting comments on the Cedar Lounge Revolution on what has been happening in South Ossetia, including several who say they have been in the area or have first hand accounts.
http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2008/08/10/adventurism-in-the-21st-century-anyone-can-play-georgia-and-russia-and-wine-too/

cactus flower wrote:

just look at it
http://thebrainpolice.blogspot.com/
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRl3qArJO-o

A lot of very interesting comments on the Cedar Lounge Revolution on what has been happening in South Ossetia, including several who say they have been in the area or have first hand accounts.
http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2008/08/10/adventurism-in-the-21st-century-anyone-can-play-georgia-and-russia-and-wine-too/

thats an excellent piece by WorldbyStorm over there at Cedar Lounge - the first piece of objective,balanced and brutally honest piece of commentary I've seen on the Web about the conflict -without any of the hysterial anti US imperial conspiracy shite - and from a self confessed leftie too - nice one.

Edo wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

just look at it
http://thebrainpolice.blogspot.com/
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRl3qArJO-o

A lot of very interesting comments on the Cedar Lounge Revolution on what has been happening in South Ossetia, including several who say they have been in the area or have first hand accounts.
http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2008/08/10/adventurism-in-the-21st-century-anyone-can-play-georgia-and-russia-and-wine-too/

thats an excellent piece by World Storm over there at Cedar Lounge - the first piece of objective,balanced and brutally honest piece of commentary I've seen on the Web about the conflict -without any of the hysterial anti US imperial conspiracy shite - and from a self confessed leftie too - nice one.

It seems to me that WBS has back tracked a little during the course of the thread. Did you read any of the rest of the comments Edo? Or are they a red disinformation conspiracy?

cactus flower wrote:

Edo wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

just look at it
http://thebrainpolice.blogspot.com/
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRl3qArJO-o

A lot of very interesting comments on the Cedar Lounge Revolution on what has been happening in South Ossetia, including several who say they have been in the area or have first hand accounts.
http://cedarlounge.wordpress.com/2008/08/10/adventurism-in-the-21st-century-anyone-can-play-georgia-and-russia-and-wine-too/

thats an excellent piece by World Storm over there at Cedar Lounge - the first piece of objective,balanced and brutally honest piece of commentary I've seen on the Web about the conflict -without any of the hysterial anti US imperial conspiracy shite - and from a self confessed leftie too - nice one.

It seems to me that WBS has back tracked a little during the course of the thread. Did you read any of the rest of the comments Edo? Or are they a red disinformation conspiracy?

must have been reading a different thread than you - tho I saw your comments alright

Sorry - dont buy the US conspiracy theory here at all - then again I dont buy most conspiracy theories either - The Georgian President - for reasons known purely to him I would say - took a gamble and its has backfired bigtime - Even the Yanks know that the era of PAX Americana is over -you are quoting a lot of stuff that is 5 years out of date - This is Russia's backyard in a multipolar world - the US has no military capability here and the Russians dont do international public opinion - just hope they dont do a Chechnia on it and pulverise their country and nation back into stone age - which they are quite capable of. Im sure the US has an interest in the oil transit situation there - but egging on Georgia to go and commit suicide by invading the autonmous zones with Russia in the mood she is in, it is quite possible by the end of the week that Russia will be completely in control of all Georgia and the pipelines and there is feck all anybody in the west can do about it - the Yanks are not stupid and they dont go about military adventures without having the weighted up the odds of their objectives actually being achieved here.

And you wonder why the whole of Eastern Europe ran into Nato - and the rest of them are begging on the doors to join - its not easy having Russia for a neighbour!

Quote :

Georgian President - for reasons known purely to him I would say - took a gamble and its has backfired bigtime

Quote :

And you wonder why the whole of Eastern Europe ran into Nato - and the rest of them are begging on the doors to join - its not easy having Russia for a neighbour!

Agreed - they are both points that I have made myself. Neither of them cut across the rest of what I said. Kosova and the antiballistic missile shield, as well as the threats to Iran, all have to be taken into account, are facts, not conspiracy theory, and don't exactly suggest a passive US.

Edo wrote:

This is Russia's backyard in a multipolar world - the US has no military capability here

I hate to point out the obvious that Georgia borders Turkey, a member of NATO. The Russians are driving their tanks through NATO's front yard and laughing heartily as the west stands idly by.

Edo wrote:

and the Russians dont do international public opinion

Obviously not

Edo wrote:

And you wonder why the whole of Eastern Europe ran into Nato - and the rest of them are begging on the doors to join - its not easy having Russia for a neighbour!

And this week, the former members of the Warsaw Pact might well be asking themselves why they shouldn't return to the Russian bloc. It appears that when the chips are down, NATO does a lot of hand wringing and bleating about diplomacy. But that's about it.

They can bleat away to their heart's content. Does anyone think that Sarkosy and Merkel are not laughed at by the Russians

I can't believe it's for a pipeline. What will Russia do with it?

Auditor #9 wrote:

I can't believe it's for a pipeline. What will Russia do with it?

Grab Europe by the balls and squeeze.

When they grab Merkel by the balls all they will get is a ham sandwich.

How will this grabbing go on ? Will the Russians overcharge for oil or hold ransom threats?

It was the IMF that fucked them up according to Stiglitz, not the Europeans.

The Russians will dominate them and turn them into slaves. I see where one of them paid 500 million euros for a house in France. You will see the really pathetic ones saying that you should develope better relations and engage them more. I expect such foolishness from students as they don't know any better but from adults?.

Now Putin is laughing as they have taken the town of Gori. Suckawilly has signed a ceasefire with the EU delagation. Only problem is that he is not fighting the EU. Putin says they hanged Saddam for wiping out a few Shiites but they now want to protect the Georgian for worse crimes.

I am not a pessimist but it looks like they want to kill Suckawilly.

There has been a lot of people killed for the stupidity of this Suckawilly. Who the fluck does he think he is to forse the Ossetians into Geogia when they wanted out. We are back to the Secession issue that is coming throughout Europe. Maybe some will learn the easy way.

For a nasty take on what may happen have a chew on this http://www.rense.com/general82/indt.htm

youngdan wrote:

The Russians will dominate them and turn them into slaves. I see where one of them paid 500 million euros for a house in France. You will see the really pathetic ones saying that you should develope better relations and engage them more. I expect such foolishness from students as they don't know any better but from adults?.

This is the result of introducing free market capitalism youngdan: you have plenty of lads with 500 million houses and some more - don't you think that is a great thing?

Putin showed most of them the door and threw the oil man in jail. I don't know about the guy that bought this house but the rest just bought state enterprises for peanuts. There is no free market in Russia. The mafiya will kill you. KGB and gangsters working together. In China it is the party and Army working together. Brute force is the name of the game. The bigger the country the worse it is.

Anyone here get "Russia Today"? I was just watching Kouchner, who is in North Ossetia, being beseiged by refugees begging for help. He acknowledged that as well as their homes, they have lost many family members.

youngdan wrote:

Putin showed most of them the door and threw the oil man in jail. I don't know about the guy that bought this house but the rest just bought state enterprises for peanuts. There is no free market in Russia. The mafiya will kill you. KGB and gangsters working together. In China it is the party and Army working together. Brute force is the name of the game. The bigger the country the worse it is.

Isn't every man for himself and plenty of guns the right approach ?

So is Medvedev on holidays or what ? I haven't once heard his name mentioned in all this.

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

So is Medvedev on holidays or what ? I haven't once heard his name mentioned in all this.

Oh you thought he was in charge of Russia did you? Any Russian watcher could tell you Putin wasn't going to give up power. His transition to Prime Minister was seamless and avoided the lame duck status which he could have encountered.

johnfás wrote:

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

So is Medvedev on holidays or what ? I haven't once heard his name mentioned in all this.

Oh you thought he was in charge of Russia did you? Any Russian watcher could tell you Putin wasn't going to give up power. His transition to Prime Minister was seamless and avoided the lame duck status which he could have encountered.

Saw Medvedev making speeches yesterday and the day before. Today Putin has stepped in vehemently asserting that Georgia has committed war crimes and that Russia will protect Russian citizens.

Do you get "Russia Today" EVM ? What do you make of the coverage ? They are saying 1,600 civilians were killed in the Capital. They have shown some dead civilians and a lot of devastated women with stories of tanks running over women and children. Earlier on they showed a lot of dead soldiers. They say that there are still a lot of people trapped under rubble after the Georgian shelling and bombing. There are also some very upset posters from the area commenting on the Cedar Lounge Revolution thread. Is all this being made up, or is the real picture that Saakashvili launched a major ethnic cleansing assault on South Ossetia ?
If that is the case there is an extraordinary media white wash going on, from RTE to Al Jazeera.

The Russians are also adamant that there is US involvement in terms of arming, training and now bringing the Georgian troops back from Iraq to Georgia.

Russia has definitely bombed a number of military targets and a port, outside the disputed regions, and some Georgian civilians have been killed and injured.
It is not easy to get a fix on what is going on.

Anyone that thinks Medvedev is the boss probably thinks Bush is the boss as well.

There is a few thousand dead. If every one of them had an ak47 the Georgians would not have invaded and the people would be alive. Who can deny that simple fact

The idealists are getting a wake up call. When an invader comes you had better have a gun.