A Shot Across Nato's Bows - Russian tanks enter Georgia - Georgians enter South Ossetia - all out war?

Squire wrote:

riadach wrote:

That depends. I'm not sure of the sociological understanding of Russia's situation since it is a deteriorating economic powerhouse, or an economic powerhouse that has deteriorated, but most countries birthrates decrease with economic success, not the other way around.

IMO Russia is the exception.

I did accept it could be an exception, though admittedly not for the reasons you had mentioned. Normally population decreases with wealth due to improved health, which means birthrates are low so people don't need to have more children as a backup. It also increases due to education. However, these two issues may have already been addressed in Russia, so an increase in wealth would not cause a further decline. However, I do not see that it is for certain they would prevent one either.

I am saying the Russians have the town. They also have the base. Ye are the only 2 that denies reality. http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/08/russians-occupy.html

To finish the argument ye can read it yourselves.

youngdan wrote:

In what way is Russia not the most powerfull nation on Earth. It has the biggest and most powerfull nuclear force by far. It has tons of money and tons of gold. It has Europe over a barrell.

Conventional forces mean nothing because a 50000 dollar missile can knock out a 5 million dollar tank. The entire US Navy is not worth a rats-ass against the Sunburn Missile.

The USSR supposedly have a larger number of warheads than the US by a small bit. I can't find a comparison in megatonnes.

905 wrote:

youngdan wrote:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4509692.ece

This should end the disagreement on whether the Russians nabbed the town or whether the Georgians still held it

*Sigh* That says the Georgians abandoned the town, which no one disputes. It doesn't say the Russians captured the town.

It seems that they're there now, dismantling Georgian military bases.

Agreed.

It matters not a toss who has the most megatonnes. It is the side that fires first that counts. If the Russians launch there is no US.

At last ye both admit the the Russians captured the town. The Russians are in the town. 905 what part of OCCUPY do you not understand. You were wrong wrong wrong and the fact that you do not have the backbone to admit it is giving me a great laugh. ha ha ha

youngdan wrote:

It matters not a toss who has the most megatonnes. It is the side that fires first that counts. If the Russians launch there is no US.

Whichever side started it Europe would be banjaxed.

youngdan wrote:

I am saying the Russians have the town. They also have the base. Ye are the only 2 that denies reality. http://blog.wired.com/defense/2008/08/russians-occupy.html

To finish the argument ye can read it yourselves.

That report dates from today. You were saying it on Tuesday morning when it wasn't true.

Perhaps the Georgian read this thread and scarpered.

Give it up 905, the Georgians ran away from this area days ago.

And the Russians only ran in lately.

There's not enough love in this room so.

Here is how all such disputes should be settled.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAMmncD5Apg&feature=related

Well things have moved on now, with Bush making threatening noises and threatening to send in "a humanitarian mission". The prospect of US and Russian armies facing each other in Georgia is not good.

While this is going on the Taliban seem to be overrunning Afghanistan again.

Back to reality.

The Russians have pressed ahead in the nuclear arms arena. http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=4057
These babies have a yield of 500 kilotonnes but can also be fixed with 6 warheads. The fact of the matter is that only a clown would believe that they only have 500 of them. They are mobile and difficult if not impossible to hit with a 1st strike. Then we have all the fixed, sea bases and airforce nuks as well. A force that is not recognised as being as lethal as it is.

The bigger issue is with Ukraine. It is possible that the Georgian gamble was used to get an indicationof what Russia would no if the Ukraine decided it wanted to join nato. I have heard suggestions that the Russians are going to give them a dig as well

youngdan wrote:

Back to reality.

The Russians have pressed ahead in the nuclear arms arena. http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=4057
These babies have a yield of 500 kilotonnes but can also be fixed with 6 warheads. The fact of the matter is that only a clown would believe that they only have 500 of them. They are mobile and difficult if not impossible to hit with a 1st strike. Then we have all the fixed, sea bases and airforce nuks as well. A force that is not recognised as being as lethal as it is.

The bigger issue is with Ukraine. It is possible that the Georgian gamble was used to get an indicationof what Russia would no if the Ukraine decided it wanted to join nato. I have heard suggestions that the Russians are going to give them a dig as well

I agree there is a possibility that this is a fishing operation. Its either that or Saakashvili lost the run of himself.

Also there will be 4 carrier groups plus the British carrier group and a few French subs off Iran about now. Some have suggested that this was to give the Russians something to chew on. The Georgians were not able to make it last too long though. The Russians are now more likely to join an aerial battle over Iran.

Squire wrote:

Here is how all such disputes should be settled.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAMmncD5Apg&feature=related

Yes, 'cos that's not sinister at all. It's like some sort of bizarre villageritual which ends with the puppets being set on fire and sacrificial victims eaten.

I feel we've had a chilling insight in to the goings on at Squire Hall.

Back to reality, as youngdan says. Ossetia and Ukraine are very different kettles of fish. First of all, we don't know how the Georgian adventure has panned out yet, so let's not be too quick to judge. In Ukraine the Russians haven't any clear-cut breakaway regions to liberate. They had a very good reason for going into South Ossetia remember. And the Ukraine standa a far better chance of Western assistance. They won't be on an offensive, presumable. They are more important to Europe than the peripheral Georgia.

It is a nasty kittle as well. The split here in Ukraine is close to 50/50 and a neat split would be too much to hope for. I have read a commentary that paints an American victory in Georgia. This argument goes that the Russians have suffered a propaganda disastor and all Europe has turned against them. The Russian ships have sailed out of the Ukraine ports and now the Ukrainians can mine the ports and prevent the ships returning. If this were the case then the Russians would have only Artic ports left and they would be screwed as far as the middle east was concerned.

The Russians could be smelling a rat and may not take Tbilitzi after all.

The American people are not the sharpist and what better way to prepare for an Iran attack but to protect us all from the crazy foreigners

We can all agree it wasn't the Georgians who came out on top. He might have supporters in the streets but the refugees are angry.

Now the US are flying in the good old humanitarian. As the one paying for it I am lacking in the spirit but regardless. The important thing isto get a couple of our boys in there. You don't need to be Einstein to know that the Georgians will kill a few of them. Like Startrek you know that there will be fewer beaming back up.

The Georgians?

The Georgians.

The story today is that the Chechnyans and Cossacks are also to be found there.


Just to follow on from the global GDP and the Arms expenditure pie charts, here is one for population:

Europe has been a pretty fluid entity over the last hundred years.

[img]http://images.google.ie/url?

14 new states appeared in 1991 after the fall of the USSR.