A Shot Across Nato's Bows - Russian tanks enter Georgia - Georgians enter South Ossetia - all out war?

riadach wrote:

Quote :

Leaving aside the specifics of 1922, that is not comparable. South Ossetia was, by legal Treaty signed by Georgia, Russia and South Ossetia, a semi-autonomous State with its own legal government. It has a separate language and culture from Georgia and has consistently sought its independence.

The comparison was to suggest that in certain instances it is acceptable, even necessary, to begin war in ones own country, or within the regions nominally within ones own control. The Ossetian government has never seriously tried to come to a negotiated settlement over its status within Georgia, all too easily relying on Russia support as a bargaining chip. It has never voted in favour of independence in a clear and transparent and internationally recognised election. Would you trust any administration that undermines democracy in order to pursue its own ends?

cactus flower wrote:

Do your posts not de-humanise South Ossetians as a 'criminal cabal' ? Ordinary civilians including children and old people were deliberately subjected to shelling without warning. Why is that acceptable? Were they criminal?

It makes out that the administration of South Ossetia has been usurped by a group of officials who heed neither international nor local law. This government is not a democratic one, as can be seen from the turn out it contrived at its last elections, and how it refuses to allow ethnic Georgians to participate. It almost certainly rigged its autonomy vote given its choice of 'independent international observers' bordered on the ridiculous. It has tried to drive out opposition through burning houses and attempting to assasinate political opponents. It is famous in the region for being a route through which drugs and guns are smuggled. It was from these people, the Georgians wished to wrest control, not from South Ossetians. Indeed the Georgians have been in contact with opposition Ossetians in a view to establish an autonomous state a long the lines of Ajaria, nearly costing the leader his life. And on top of that, it seems that ethnic Georgians were under attack by this same administration, though that may be disputed. One then has a situation whether it is appropriate to allow these individuals to harm stability within ones borders and what is the price that needs to be paid to prevent this? Could they have removed this threat without the military action they employed? I doubt it. Any incursion to settle the area would have met with serious resistence.

Quote :

Dividing countries up and allocating them in the interests of big powers rarely seems successful. Self determination of nations imo is a better option, even when they are small. If they then find themselves not viable they could apply to merge according to their own choice.

Let them have a referendum then, a proper one this time, with international monitors and the full involvement of the ethnic Georgians within South Ossetia. That however, seems impossible under the current regime.

Any sources Riadach - this is the Wikipedia entry for the Referendum: http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:brWxnJHgh_YJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetian_independence_referendum,_2006+South+Ossetia+referendum&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=ie


And this from the CIA's "Radio Free Europe" - a very good report.

Quote :

Last month, U.S. Senator Richard Lugar twice stated that Washington no longer supports the presence of Russian peacekeeping forces in South Ossetia and Abkhazia, another breakaway region in Georgia. Diplomacy, he said, may lead to "more neutral" parties taking on the peacekeeping role.

(2006)

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/news/2006/09/mil-060914-rferl02.htm

Hermes wrote:

Pepe Escobar from the RealNews gave some brilliant insights into this conflict on the 12th.

I have to cross you again I'm afraid Hermes. While I could listen to Pepe all day, a lot of his 'real' news has to be questioned. First he announces that the Georgians were supported in their surprise invasion (of their own territiory?) by the US. I was under the impression myself that the Americans had argued against any such actions. However, I can't back that up.

He completely ignores the Georgian minorities in South Ossetia and their feelings on independence. When he mentions the referendum in which South Ossetia voted for independence he neglects to mention that no one, not even Russia, accepted the result.

He claims that the Americans had been teaching Georgian troops how to ethnically cleanse.

He claims that Georgians killed over 2000 civilians, hardly an undisputed figure.

He considers it an accepted fact that it was Georgia who started the war, again a much disputed claim.

Overall not much there we didn't know already, apart from the Brezinsky stuff which will keep youngdan happy.

905 wrote:

Hermes wrote:

Pepe Escobar from the RealNews gave some brilliant insights into this conflict on the 12th.

I have to cross you again I'm afraid Hermes. While I could listen to Pepe all day, a lot of his 'real' news has to be questioned. First he announces that the Georgians were supported in their surprise invasion (of their own territiory?) by the US. I was under the impression myself that the Americans had argued against any such actions. However, I can't back that up.

He completely ignores the Georgian minorities in South Ossetia and their feelings on independence. When he mentions the referendum in which South Ossetia voted for independence he neglects to mention that no one, not even Russia, accepted the result.

He claims that the Americans had been teaching Georgian troops how to ethnically cleanse.

He claims that Georgians killed over 2000 civilians, hardly an undisputed figure.

He considers it an accepted fact that it was Georgia who started the war, again a much disputed claim.

Overall not much there we didn't know already, apart from the Brezinsky stuff which will keep youngdan happy.

I recommend the "Radio Free Europe" link 905 - much more detailed stuff.

Can I also add that the bottom line here is that if one puts faith in international law then what we've seen weighs much more heavily against the Russians than the Georgians (despite their stupid actions at the start - although also bearing in mind that those actions weren't in isolation). I think this is dismal because the Russians, despite their pretty awful track record in Chechnya, were broadly speaking a voice for stability and caution in international affairs over the past seven years or so. I think they'll in the long run be sorry about this little bit of adventurism.

cactus flower wrote:

Any sources Riadach - this is the Wikipedia entry for the Referendum: http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:brWxnJHgh_YJ:en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Ossetian_independence_referendum,_2006+South+Ossetia+referendum&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=ie

I based my view of the international observers on footnote number 5 in the above report.

As for the opposition to the Government, they are called the People of South Ossetia for Peace, and you'll find information on them here. It mentions the attacks on the opposition, however it does not list a source. This article mentiones the assasination attempt on its leader Dmitri Sanokoyev, who is an ethnic ossetian but relies on many ethnic Georgians for support. Their opposition regime, which is based in the south of South Ossetia, is given latent support by the Georgian authorities, but they do no support it officially and have outlawed their elections. According to this article, 50,000 people voted in a referendum under Koikoity's regime to remain an independent state, whereas 40,000 (a disputed figure) voted in under Sanokoyev's regime in a referendum to remain part of Georgia.

The two questions were:

'“Should South Ossetia engage in discussions with Tbilisi concerning a federal State uniting it with Georgia?” in the separatist separatists' regime and “Should the republic of South Ossetia retain its current status as an independent State, and be recognized by the international community?” in the separatists' regime.

Riadach said: This article mentiones the assasination attempt on its leader Dmitri Sanokoyev, who is an ethnic ossetian but relies on many ethnic Georgians for support

Quote :

On November 11, 2006, the South Ossetian State Security Committee exposed an alleged Georgian attempt to assassinate the South Ossetian rebel leader Eduard Kokoity and organize a "coup d'état" in the region. Alan Parastayev, the former South Ossetian Interior Minister and Supreme Court chairman, has reportedly turned himself in to the State Security Committee and confessed to being a party to the plot. The South Ossetian rebels claimed Amiran Meskheli, the deputy head of the Georgian Interior Ministry’s Counterintelligence Department, was in charge of the operation[8]. The Georgian Interior Ministry denied South Ossetia's assertions.

Is this the assassination attempt you mean ?

I don't study South Ossetia I just suppose we should leave the Russians alone and not send spies in their area.

Quote :

We have taken the first step towards the reunification of North and South Ossetia,” declared Eduard Kokoity, president of the unrecognized republic of South Ossetia, the day after two simultaneous elections in Tskhinvali. Officially, 52,030 people – 94.6% of voters – turned out, a record level of voter participation according to President Kokoity. 99% voted for the separatist republic of South Ossetia’s independence at the time of the referendum. 98% voted to re-elect the incumbent president. According to the Electoral Commission of Alternative Elections, 42,000 voters turned out for the elections held in the region’s territories under Georgian control. According to authorities in Tskhinvali, the voters numbered only 14,000. In the alternative presidential election, Dimitri Sanakoev, the favorite candidate from Tbilisi, took 88% of the votes. More than 90% of voters voted for a return by South Ossetia to Georgia by way of a federation.

Neither of the elections were recognised by NATO, the UN or the EU.

arnaudherve wrote:

I don't study South Ossetia I just suppose we should leave the Russians alone and not send spies in their area.

Would you like them to join the EU ?

Russians? I don't know. It looks like a good idea and a bad idea.

It would be a major strategic shift.

arnaudherve wrote:

Russians? I don't know. It looks like a good idea and a bad idea.

It would be a major strategic shift.

Easy access to caviar and an instant boost to EU nuclear capabilties ?

cactus flower wrote:

Riadach said: This article mentiones the assasination attempt on its leader Dmitri Sanokoyev, who is an ethnic ossetian but relies on many ethnic Georgians for support

Quote :

On November 11, 2006, the South Ossetian State Security Committee exposed an alleged Georgian attempt to assassinate the South Ossetian rebel leader Eduard Kokoity and organize a "coup d'état" in the region. Alan Parastayev, the former South Ossetian Interior Minister and Supreme Court chairman, has reportedly turned himself in to the State Security Committee and confessed to being a party to the plot. The South Ossetian rebels claimed Amiran Meskheli, the deputy head of the Georgian Interior Ministry’s Counterintelligence Department, was in charge of the operation[8]. The Georgian Interior Ministry denied South Ossetia's assertions.

Is this the assassination attempt you mean ?

Obviously not, but it is indeed an interesting turn of events. Now, what we have to decide is, is there truth in the allegations in either instance?

Since we're playing a bit of my daddy is better than yours, I should show you what they did to his namesake.
http://eng.kavkaz.memo.ru/newstext/engnews/id/757504.html

riadach wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

Riadach said: This article mentiones the assasination attempt on its leader Dmitri Sanokoyev, who is an ethnic ossetian but relies on many ethnic Georgians for support

Quote :

On November 11, 2006, the South Ossetian State Security Committee exposed an alleged Georgian attempt to assassinate the South Ossetian rebel leader Eduard Kokoity and organize a "coup d'état" in the region. Alan Parastayev, the former South Ossetian Interior Minister and Supreme Court chairman, has reportedly turned himself in to the State Security Committee and confessed to being a party to the plot. The South Ossetian rebels claimed Amiran Meskheli, the deputy head of the Georgian Interior Ministry’s Counterintelligence Department, was in charge of the operation[8]. The Georgian Interior Ministry denied South Ossetia's assertions.

Is this the assassination attempt you mean ?

Obviously not, but it is indeed an interesting turn of events. Now, what we have to decide is, is there truth in the allegations in either instance?

Since we're playing a bit of my daddy is better than yours, I should show you what they did to his namesake.
http://eng.kavkaz.memo.ru/newstext/engnews/id/757504.html

It is most unlikely that even if we could agree on the best available facts on this, that we would agree what should happen, as the political outlooks are not the same. But given that new information is being brought into the thread by both of us I feel it is a worthwhile discussion.

Here is another bit of my big daddy: Neo Conservative Democracy's poster boy Saakashvili's secret police and army in action:

http://eldib.wordpress.com/2007/11/08/us-democracy-applied-at-full-in-georgia-riot-police-tear-gas-water-cannons-tv-station-closed/

Quote :

Riot police used tear gas and water cannons to break up demonstrations against Georgia’s pro-Western government Wednesday before bursting into the offices of a pro-opposition television station that went off the air moments later. The Georgian Health Ministry said that around 360 people have so far been injured in the clashes, and 109 remain in hospital. Imedi TV said protests have now spilled over into other Georgian cities. The largest provincial rally is taking place in Batumi on the Black Sea coast. Opposition arrests and police beatings have angered the crowds, now gathering for a sixth day in central Tbilisi.

The Georgian Health Ministry said that around 360 people have so far been injured in the clashes, and 109 remain in hospital. Health Minister David Tkeshelashvili said the state would pay for the medical treatment of those injured.Georgian Interior Ministry troops and army units have been deployed on the streets to prevent the protesters from breaking through to the parliament’s building. All 23 metro stations in the capital have been closed.

Aside from President Saakashvili’s resignation, the Georgian opposition is demanding early elections in April 2008, electoral reform, and the freeing of “political prisoners”. Saakashvili has so far refused to negotiate with the protesters.

At the peak of the protests, between 50,000 and 100,000 people, according to different estimates, rallied on Friday, the first day of Georgia’s worst unrest since the 2003 “rose revolution” that brought Saakashvili to power. Protesters accuse the president of corruption, authoritarianism, and failed economic reforms. Many continue to support former defense minister Irakly Okruashvili, previously a key ally of the president, who in late September publicly accused Saakashvili of ordering the murders of political opponents and of plotting the forceful seizure of breakaway South Ossetia. Days after the comments he was arrested and charged with blackmail, money laundering, and abuse of office, but was later released.

Imedi TV channel reported that Giorgy Khaindrava, a Georgian opposition leader detained earlier today, had launched a hunger strike. Khaindrava announced the measure after being taken to a Tbilisi court to face charges of inciting public disorder and resisting police. He was later released by the court after paying a fine of around $250.

National media also reported that authorities are searching the office of businessman Badri Patarkatsishvili, who earlier pledged to finance political opposition in the country and said he was ready to spend his entire fortune to overthrow “Saakashvili’s Nazi regime”. Georgian lawmaker Levan Gachechiladze, who had been taking part in a hunger strike outside parliament, said he had been attacked by police, but warned that “the people will soon beat Saakashvili in the same manner”.

The opposition People’s Party said that their leader, Koba Davitashvili, was abducted by unknown individuals and forced into a car at a market where he had arrived to buy a sound amplification system for the anti-president rally.

Imedi TV said protests have now spilled over into other Georgian cities...Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said the ongoing unrest is an internal affair for Georgia but stressed that Russia is concerned by the events. “What is happening in Georgia is its internal affair, and I would not like to comment in detail on the situation. But it is of concern to us,” he said.

The minister said that in addition to the crisis in Tbilisi, Georgia’s leadership is attempting to scupper talks on regulating the country’s conflicts with its breakaway territories of Abkhazia and South Ossetia. The European Union and NATO said they were closely watching the situation in Georgia and urged the country’s authorities and opposition to refrain from confrontation.

http://en.rian.ru/world/20071107/87002706.html

After the suppression of the demonstrations, a highly dubious election process took place.

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/dd735478-bb2f-11dc-9fbc-0000779fd2ac.html?nclick_check=1


BBC report - alleged stealing of ballot boxes

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7174343.stm

Mr. Saakashvili's supporters:

An interesting account, although there certainly is grounds for bias given that the same website also posted this picture in sincerity.



This leaves me to wonder have elements of this riot being left out in order to paint Mr Saakashvili in a bad light.

However, the allegations of Irakly Okruashvilli are also worrying, but are they true? Firstly, according to wikipedia, he was a very close ally of Mr Saakashvilli, but, despite the article implying, he was opposed to a hostile takeover of South Ossetia, its continual existence as an indepedent entity caused him to resign. One can indeed wonder if it was for political capital that he claimed Mr Saakashvilli was involved in the political murders of rivals, especially as he later withdrew the claims listing that as his reason (this was done in prison however, and could have been done under duress). He was however, indicted on massive corruptions and bribery charges, as mentioned in the article, which he later admitted to (again possibly under duress).

The Georgians excuse for its actions however, seem to be a fear of a Russian backed coup d'etat. Given that most of the protestors were on Rustaveli Avenue, the territory adjacent to the Parliament, one could perhaps wonder whether there was truth in the rumour, although I myself am not completely buying the story.

There is also the role of Betri Patarkatsishvilli to consider in this too. He has made no effort to conceal his desire for Saakashvili to be overthrown, and he owns Imedi TV from whom that article garners a lot of information. He also organised the opposition protests, contested the presidential election, and claimed to have helped Vladimir Putin to power. Not only that, but there are accusations that he was involved in fraud, massive corruption, he was impeached from Georgia's Olympic council, and he has been accused of being involved in various political murders, and tapes showing he tried to engineer a coup d'etat by bribing a Georgian minister in January of this year. He was very closely linked to Okruashvilli too.

However, he has died of a heart attack in the meantime .

Georgia sounds like such a fun country to live in. Every day must feel like an episode from Dallas or at least very Bismarckian.

riadach wrote:

An interesting account, although there certainly is grounds for bias given that the same website also posted this picture in sincerity.



This leaves me to wonder have elements of this riot being left out in order to paint Mr Saakashvili in a bad light.

However, the allegations of Irakly Okruashvilli are also worrying, but are they true? Firstly, according to wikipedia, he was a very close ally of Mr Saakashvilli, but, despite the article implying, he was opposed to a hostile takeover of South Ossetia, its continual existence as an indepedent entity caused it to resign. One can indeed wonder if it was for political capital that he claimed Mr Saakashvilli was involved in the political murders of rivals, especially as he later withdrew the claims (this was done in prison however, and could have been done under duress). He was however, indicted on massive corruptions and bribery charges, as mentioned in the article, which he later admitted to (again possibly under duress).

The Georgians excuse for its actions however, seem to be a fear of a Russian backed coup d'etat. Given that most of the protestors were on Rustaveli Avenue, the territory adjacent to the Parliament, one could perhaps wonder whether there was truth in the rumour, although I myself am not completely buying the story.

There is also the role of Betri Patarkatsishvilli to consider in this too. He has made no effort to conceal his desire for Saakashvili to be overthrown, and he owns Imedi TV from whom that article garners a lot of information. He also organised the opposition protests, contested the presidential election, and claimed to have helped Vladimir Putin to power. Not only that, but there are accusations that he was involved in fraud, massive corruption, he was impeached from Georgia's Olympic council, and he has been accused of being involved in various political murders.

Georgia sounds like such a fun country to live in. Every day must feel like an episode from Dallas.

I have given you several western links, the BBC, 2 X CIA sites, I have quoted from the wiki site that you quoted from yourself, and video so you can look and judge for yourself, but you still are working overtime to prove them all wrong.

Riadach, the account of the weeks of mass opposition demonstrations against Saakashvili and the dubious election is given across the media of all shades of political opinion. I've provided a variety of sources. There is an objective reality that is reflected in these reports. No amount of thinking and re-arranging words and ideas can make it go away.

cactus flower wrote:

I have given you several western links, the BBC, 2 X CIA sites, I have quoted from the wiki site that you quoted from yourself, and video so you can look and judge for yourself, but you still are working overtime to prove them all wrong.


Riadach, the account of the weeks of mass opposition demonstrations against Saakashvili and the dubious election is given across the media of all shades of political opinion. I've provided a variety of sources. There is an objective reality that is reflected in these reports. No amount of thinking and re-arranging words and ideas can make it go away.

You had not posted the BBC site when I had responded to it and I do not have a suscription to FT so I cannot read it. However, it is irrelevant to my response, as I was referring mainly to the account of the riots as opposed to allegations of ballot rigging. All I wished to show is that there is much more to each story than the sources you are providing indicate, there are plenty of grounds for believing the Georgian government when they say that a Russian backedcoup d'etat was organised for that day, something your article does not even mention. It was funded by a well known Putin sympathiser after all, who subsequently tried to organise a coup the following January. What you call re-arranging words, I would consider delving deeper, to the point of considering biases and alternate accounts.


On looking at the BBC report however, I am surprised by one thing. You chose to focus on the allegation, made by protestors against his regime that there was ballot-box stealing. I'm not willing to say whether or not they were stating the truth, it is very possible in many embryonic democracies that supporters commit crimes that are unacceptable in efforts to help their party achieve power. Even in this country, people vote twice. It does not necessarily reflect higher orders. However, the OECD did state the elections were 'largely free and fair'. Obviously this isn't completely satisfactory, but shouldn't we be judging Georgian Democracy on that basis, rather than anecdotal allegations from individuals who are far from impartial? It's hardly an objective analysis if you focus on such things.

riadach wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

I have given you several western links, the BBC, 2 X CIA sites, I have quoted from the wiki site that you quoted from yourself, and video so you can look and judge for yourself, but you still are working overtime to prove them all wrong.


Riadach, the account of the weeks of mass opposition demonstrations against Saakashvili and the dubious election is given across the media of all shades of political opinion. I've provided a variety of sources. There is an objective reality that is reflected in these reports. No amount of thinking and re-arranging words and ideas can make it go away.

You had not posted the BBC site when I had responded to it. However, it is irrelevant to my response, as I was referring mainly to the account of the riots as opposed to allegations of ballot rigging. All I wished to show is that there is much more to each story than the sources you are providing indicate, there are plenty of grounds for believing the Georgian government when they say that a Russian backedcoup d'etat was organised for that day. It was funded by a well known Putin sympathiser after all, who subsequently tried to organise a coup the following January. What you call re-arranging words, I would consider delving deeper, to the point of considering biases and alternate accounts.

Is there proof of this? Are you saying this man paid tens of thousands of people to demonstrate?

Still, if you're interested in considering alternatives, I'm sure you will consider the ones presented in the Financial Times and BBC reports.
Saakashvili is not a good man. They were demonstrating because he is corrupt and is selling off their resources for his own benefit. At least the Georgians have the sense to see it. We let our politicians give our gas away and thanked them for taking the trouble.

btw, would you be able to link the map you posted, to provide some context for it ?

Here is the FT article:

Georgia election process labelled 'rigged'
By Roman Olearchyk in Tbilisi

Published: January 5 2008 02:00 | Last updated: January 5 2008 02:00

On the eve of a hard-fought presidential election, opposition leaders in the former Soviet republic of Georgia yesterday denounced the process as unfair, and called on international observers not to endorse the result.

Opposition groups say they will not recognise exit polls, insisting that they and the vote will be "rigged" in favour of Mikheil Saakashvili, Georgia's pro-western president, who is seeking re-election.

Pressure is mounting on more than 1,000 international observers who will play the key role in deciding the legitimacy of votes cast at some 3,400 ballot stations.

In an interview with the Financial Times, Levan Gachechiladze, leader of a nine-party opposition coalition, and the man most likely to come second to Mr Saakashvili, said: "The election process has not been democratic, and cannot be considered fair or legitimate."

Most opinion polls have shown Mr Saakashvili with a lead over all the other candidates, but do not clearly give him the 50 per cent plus one vote needed to avoid a second-round run-off. Mr Gachechiladze cast doubt on these and exit polls, saying they had been rigged in Mr Saakashvili's favour. He said businesses, television channels and billboard companies had refused to run opposition advertisements.

"It's impossible that the vote will be fair. It will likely be rigged in Mr Saakashvili's favour," Mr Gachechiladze said, and urged foreign election observers not to recognise the outcome.

A report issued by an election monitoring mission from the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe described the election campaign as being conducted in a "highly polarised political environment".

The mission claimed to have received "information and first-hand accounts" backing some claims of "unequal campaign conditions". It said initial media monitoring efforts "indicate a lack of balance in the news coverage of most monitored TV stations, with Mr Saakashvili generally receiving the most coverage".

Other leading observer teams include the US-based International Republican Institute and National Democratic Institute, plus a team from the Parliamentary Assembly of the Council of Europe.

One observer predicted that the vote might not be handled in "ideal fashion but it is unlikely that observer teams would not recognise them as being legitimate overall. Some might be more critical than others".

Mr Gachechiladze agreed, saying: "Nobody wants instability in Georgia. This is the priority of many western states involved in the observer missions. But I think stability will come after free elections."

Mr Saakashvili, who predicts a comfortable victory for himself in the first round, admits that a second round would be harder, if all opposition votes were to go against him. Mr Gachechiladze supports a pro-western policy and Nato membership, but wants to change Georgia from a presidential to parliamentary system.
Copyright The Financial Times Limited 2008

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cactus flower wrote:

Is there proof of this? Are you saying this man paid tens of thousands of people to demonstrate?

It's here in his wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badri_Patarkatsishvili#Involvement_in_politics

And no, I'm not stating that he paid tens of thousands of people to demonstrate, merely that he stated himself that he would fund the 10 party opposition coalitions campaign to get new elections on October 29. He also stated he would further support the mass opposition rallies on November the 2nd which later resulted in the riots and protests 5 days later. He was also caught and videoed trying to bribe an interior ministry official, which the Georgian government has concluded was part of an attempted coup. He claims he was trying to bribe him to announce how the Georgian government planned to rig the election.

Quote :

Still, if you're interested in considering alternatives, I'm sure you will consider the ones presented in the Financial Times and BBC reports.
Saakashvili is not a good man. They were demonstrating because he is corrupt and is selling off their resources for his own benefit. At least the Georgians have the sense to see it. We let our politicians give our gas away and thanked them for taking the trouble.

btw, would you be able to link the map you posted, to provide some context for it ?

Indeed, but both the Financial Times and BBC accounts are claims made by the opposition in relation to the election. The independent sources, the OECD et . al, later stated that the elections were by and large fair. It's their view that I'm going to accept over those who clearly have a vested interest in undermining the legality of the election. And I'm not for an instance saying that Saakashvilli is a great man, indeed, I worry about his sanity, and that he seems to be using the charge of corruption to root out opposition. (In fact he has quite a lot in common with Mr Chavez in that regard, and in the fact he tried to close down an opposition tv station that was inciting against him, as well as dispersing protests which he feared would produce a coup, and having a superpower rival that is constantly trying to undermine and overthrow him).

riadach wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

Is there proof of this? Are you saying this man paid tens of thousands of people to demonstrate?

It's here in his wikipedia article http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badri_Patarkatsishvili#Involvement_in_politics

And no, I'm not stating that he paid tens of thousands of people to demonstrate, merely that he stated himself that he would fund the 10 party opposition coalitions campaign to get new elections on October 29. He also stated he would further support the mass opposition rallies on November the 2nd which later resulted in the riots and protests 5 days later. He was also caught and videoed trying to bribe an interior ministry official, which the Georgian government has concluded was part of an attempted coup. He claims he was trying to bribe him to announce how the Georgian government planned to rig the election.

Quote :

Still, if you're interested in considering alternatives, I'm sure you will consider the ones presented in the Financial Times and BBC reports.
Saakashvili is not a good man. They were demonstrating because he is corrupt and is selling off their resources for his own benefit. At least the Georgians have the sense to see it. We let our politicians give our gas away and thanked them for taking the trouble.

btw, would you be able to link the map you posted, to provide some context for it ?

Indeed, but both the Financial Times and BBC accounts are claims made by the opposition in relation to the election. The independent sources, the OECD et . al, later stated that the elections were by and large fair. It's their view that I'm going to accept over those who clearly have a vested interest in undermining the legality of the election. And I'm not for an instance saying that Saakashvilli is a great man, indeed, I worry about his sanity, and that he seems to be using the charge of corruption to root out opposition. (In fact he has quite a lot in common with Mr Chavez in that regard, and in the fact he tried to close down an opposition tv station that was inciting against him, as well as dispersing protests which he feared would produce a coup, and having a superpower rival that is constantly trying to undermine and overthrow him).

The monitors I would say, damned the election with faint praise. How did Saakashvili fund his campaign I wonder? By that account he had all the TV stations working for him.

If the wiki link does one thing, it establishes the obscenity of the oligarchs, out of nowhere, swapping newsmedia chains for railway systems at the drop of a hat. I was just watching an interesting programme following Solzhenitsin around Russia in recent times: the documentary showed the fury of people in Russia who have nothing and see these multimillionaires who grabbed their assets and resources overnight. "They got it so quickly, they must be thieves"

Poor S. defended himself from people's accusations by saying that "he never told them (the Russian Government) to do it" ( the corruption and neocon robbing ). I got a very different, more complex and favourable impression of Solzhenistin than was given in the press in recent years.

A bit of a rumpus there sure enough. Why are not all of those cops at The Front Line, see how tough they are then old boy. All these cops look the same the world over nowadays. Beat the piss out of the citizens but run like hell when it is put up to them. The wonder is why was there only 70000 demonstrators. Sparse considering the scale of the disastor.

I am still waiting for someone to answer why Shagawillie mentioned the New World Order in that CNN interview. No mystery to me why he started it.

I have copied this link off Politics.ie. Mark Almond is an excellent lecturer with the necessary cynicism for history and politics. Some interesting observations. A lot of good points and well worth taking the time to listen.

http://unrepentantcommunist.blogspot.com/

Squire wrote:

I have copied this link off Politics.ie. Mark Almond is an excellent lecturer with the necessary cynicism for history and politics. Some interesting observations. A lot of good points and well worth taking the time to listen.

http://unrepentantcommunist.blogspot.com/

I was going to post that up here. It's hilarious in parts and the Enron prize quote was a hoot. I hope those on the frontlines could laugh as heartily but sometimes gallows humour can deliver the message better

SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:

Squire wrote:

I have copied this link off Politics.ie. Mark Almond is an excellent lecturer with the necessary cynicism for history and politics. Some interesting observations. A lot of good points and well worth taking the time to listen.

http://unrepentantcommunist.blogspot.com/

I was going to post that up here. It's hilarious in parts and the Enron prize quote was a hoot. I hope those on the frontlines could laugh as heartily but sometimes gallows humour can deliver the message better

I'll have to listen to that later when I won't disturb anyone.

One of the most disturbing things about this whole George/South Ossetia business is the extent to which the media bought in to a Big Lie about what was going on. A casual viewer would have assumed that Russia had invaded Georgia out of the blue, and would have had no notion that Georgia had bombed a town without warning and killed peace keepers who they had a Treaty with. We were shown the same damaged building in Gori over and over again, and nothing of the demolished streets in Tskhinvali.

Even Lara Marlowe who is sometimes off main message took the low road to Gori. I used to work in newsrooms and information flows in from all kinds of sources including PA and Associated Press wire services. They would have been watching Russia Today and reading Novosti and so on. They must have known they were lying. That takes complicity or fear in the news team and production team that I find it hard to imagine.

They were helped by Russia's failure to get photos and film of South Ossetia out until about four days after it was bombed. They don't have a tradition of free press I suppose. But that is no excuse.

Does anyone here have any insight into what went on in the newsrooms when this massive disinformation campaign was going on, in lieu of news?