- Paul R wrote:
- Papal Knight wrote:
- Some tricky questions questions:
1. Where did the House of Commons of Southern Ireland meet?
The Mansion House, wasn't it? The TDs of the Second (or First) Dail met in one room there and the MPs of House of Commons of Southern Ireland met in another room directly across the hall. As they were the same individuals (i.e. the TDs were also the MPs) that was fairly handy. There was a bit of confusion at one stage apparently and the (King's) Governor General ended up addressing the Dail by mistake - rather than the House of Commons - much to everyone's embarassment (as the Dail didn't recognise the King and the King's Government in Ireland didn't recognise the Dail). :-)
The House of Commons of Southern Ireland met in the Royal College for Science for Ireland, which is now Government Buildings. Four MPs and I think 20 senators belonging to the upper house, the Senate, attended attended the state opening of parliament. The Commons adjourned since die but the Senate met a few more times before peetering out. The House of Commons reassembled in January 1922 to approve the treaty and allow Michael Collins to form a government theoretically answerable to it.
Re your story - interesting but incorrect. The whole thing at the time is so complicated I'd better start at the beginning.
1918: UK general election.
1919. SF members of the UK parliament form themselves into the 'Assembly of Ireland' (Dáil Éireann) of the Irish Republic (Saorstát na hÉireann - not Poblacht na hÉireann, contrary to myth. Poblacht na hÉireann was the name used in 1916 but language purists hated it as a completely made up term, the equivalent of deciding that the Irish for 'Bertie' is 'Beartí'!!! So the Republic in 1919 used Saorstát na hÉireann, or occasionally Saorstát Éireann')
1920 the British parliament passes the Better Government of Ireland Act 1920 which receives the Royal assent. It creates two Irish states, Northern Ireland and Southern Ireland, each with its own House of Commons and Senate but with one chief executive, the Lord Lieutenant, over both, and a putative all-Ireland parliament, the Council of Ireland.
May 1921 - elections to both Houses of Commons. SF wins 124 of 128 seats in Southern Ireland and sets up the Second Dáil. In Britain the King, George V, Prime Minister Lloyd George and South Africa's General Smuts plot to undermine hardline Tories who wanted to wage an even tougher war on Ireland. The King had got a draft of his speech from the Irish Chief Secretary which was a 'blood and guts' rant in the King's words. He told his friend Smuts he was horrified at it. The King asked Smuts to write a better one, which Lloyd George loved. Lloyd George invites Smuts to a British cabinet meeting and reads out the 'interesting draft' someone had sent him (he didn't say) which the King thought was more suitable. He asked Smuts for his thoughts. Smuts needless to say praised the mysterious speech and a combination of the King, Lloyd George and Smuts bounce the reluctant Tories in the coalition cabinet into agreeing.
President de Valera interprets the speech as a desire for talks and talks occur, leading to a truce.
1921 Irish and British plenipotentiaries sign articles of agreement (a treaty).
December 1921 - The Dáil approves the articles. De Valera resigns and Arthur Griffith is elected President of the Republic (but calls himself President of Dáil Éireann, the old title abolished in August 1921 by the Second Dáil).
January 1922 - the House of Commons of Southern Ireland reassembles to approve the articles and chose a government. They make Michael Collins Chairman of the Provisional Government. Collins goes to Dublin Castle to meet Lord FitzAlan, the Lord Lieutenant. In British constitutional theory Collins goes to 'kiss hands' (the official name for appointment). In Irish Republican constitutional theory he goes to 'accept the surrender of Dublin Castle'. In practice it means the same as Collins takes over the reins of government in the Castle with the administration answering now to him.
Mid 1922 - an election takes place for a 'provisional parliament' to replace both the House of Commons of Southern Ireland and the Dáil. It is also known as the 'Constituent Assembly' or the 3rd Dáil.
August 1922 - President of the Republic Arthur Griffith dies. He is replaced by W.T. Cosgrave who calls himself President of Dáil Éireann.
August 1922 - Collins is assassinated. W.T. Cosgrave becomes Chairman of the Provisional Government. As a result you had a parliament that was the linear descendant of two rivals (the Dáil and the House of Commons) and a head of government who was simultaneously a President of the Republic and a prime minister of the crown.
30 August 1922 - The Provisional Parliament/Constituent Assembly/3rd Dáil meets. Laurence Ginnell demands to know if it a crown parliament or a republican parliament. The acting chairman says that under standing orders no other business can be discussed until a Ceann Comhairle is elected (the standard rule in all parliaments). A Ceann Comhairle is elected. The Ceann Comhairle then calls on TDs to sign the roll. Ginnell refuses to until he is told whether it is a crown parliament or a republican one. He is told, again correctly, that legally only members who had signed the roll and so legally have 'taken their seats' can address the house. Ginnell says he won't until he gets an answer and is told he isn't legally able to ask any questions until he has 'taken his seat' by signing the roll. Ginnell refuses and is deemed legally not to be a member of the Dáil until he signs in and escorted from the chamber.
Meanwhile on top of one parliament being two, anti-treaty republicans then set up their own own parliament and government but no-one pays any attention and it flops.
Meanwhile, back in the Provisional Parliament/Constituent Assembly/3rd Dáil the Ceann Comhairle old the assembly (whatever it was!) that he had received a message from the Lord Lieutenant and read it out, further confusing everyone. That may be the incident you are referring to.
It wasn't by the way the Governor-General. That office until came into being by letters patent in December 1922. When the Governor-General addressed the Oireachtas in December 1922, reading a message from the King and a speech from the throne written by the Governor-General's ministers (the Executive Council of the Irish Free State) the confusion had ended and the Dáil then was unambiguously was one parliament, not two, with Southern Ireland and the Irish Republic both abolished, along with their parliaments. But even then things were not straight forward, as the new Dáil was a continuation of the 3rd Dáil elected in the pact election some months earlier.
Portal 
(it's called after a lake 
)