BUDGET 2008 - 2009

It is ridiculous not charging for smaller jets. If anything such a levy should be decreased per capita the larger the aircraft and increased accordingly for smaller planes.

Where it has not been collected by an airline it could be paid in cash on departure. I have been to many airports around the world where you have to pay a tax on departure if it has not been included in your ticket. Then all you would have to do is pay it to the security man on your way through the private aerodrome.

I presume I am correct in presuming we have now installed security in such locations... or are we still permitting them to be used for the importation of illegal drugs?

tonys wrote:

johnfás wrote:

It is ridiculous not charging for smaller jets. If anything such a levy should be decreased per capita the larger the aircraft and increased accordingly for smaller planes.

Maybe the cost of collecting the tax where there is no ticketing or price per person makes it uneconomical to go after.

How are the software systems of the Revenue ? Maybe it's time for an upgrade which would make their tax-collecting functions very flexible and tunable to all sorts of situations, climates, recessions. Programmers are two a penny now these days.

johnfás wrote:

It is ridiculous not charging for smaller jets. If anything such a levy should be decreased per capita the larger the aircraft and increased accordingly for smaller planes.

I think the question here is - would it be worth it? - would the cost of enforcing and collecting the duty from smaller aircraft flying from smaller airfields all over the country at irregular intervals be - how would they pay this?

Im saying this given the way the civil service works - they would demand at least 4 officers for each airport + plus 5 bureaucrats in the back office to surpervise this levy - on top of Shannon.Dublin,Cork,Galway,Waterford,Sligo,Kerry,Donegal,Knock - they would also demand that Westin and at least 10 other small airfields that private aircraft depart from be included in this too. This would have to happen as there will be no carrier built in ticket system which allows the gov take the duty off the larger carriers with the minimum of cost.

So you are looking at 20 airports x 9 personnel - 180 people at conservatively 40,000 euros = 7.2 million euros

To even break even on this you would need to have 720,000 passengers departing on private aircraft each fiscal year on the higher 10 euro category - is there really that much volume in the private flight market for this - particularly in an era of recession when private jets are the first luxury to go?

If you want to make an ideological point of getting the rich - well tear on - for a purely economic and efficiency point of view it is absolute bollox.

johnfás wrote:

I presume I am correct in presuming we have now installed security in such locations.

Perhaps for international flights, but hardly possible for internal.

As I have stated Edo, do we not already have security personnel at these airfields? I was under the impression that such security has been put in following a situation where drugs were being transported through Weston Airport in 2006 (reported here). Why can't the guys who we are paying to be there collect these monies? We don't need to employ new people to implement this at small airports - these people already exist.

My point regarding smaller aircraft paying more is clearly there is greater damage done to the environment per capita the smaller the aircraft.

johnfás wrote:

As I have stated Edo, do we not already have security personnel at these airfields? I was under the impression that such security has been put in following a situation where drugs were being transported through Weston Airport in 2006 (reported here). Why can't the guys who we are paying to be there collect these monies? We don't need to employ new people to implement this at small airports - these people already exist.

No we dont actually - aviation customs and excise personnel are located permanently only at the main gateway airports - they will do random spotchecks and check tipoffs at the private airfields when they get the details of what flight plans have been registered with Air Traffic Control and they deem it suspicious - but they are not stationed there permanently and our customs personnel are stretched as it is - only 10-15 % of all arriving passengers are checked by Customs and less than 20% of all ariving cargo as it is -they cant be everywhere and have to hope deterrent and threat is enough - to start wasting their time traipsing around rural airfields after mickey mouse money is laughable.

My point was premised on whether or not such security existed at these airports. It took you several posts to come round to answering that particular question, given your knowledge on the subject.

Presumably you have to pay these airfields to take off, you could easy charge the levy there. Force the airports to add it as a surcharge on top of their departure fees.

johnfás wrote:

My point was premised on whether or not such security existed at these airports. It took you several posts to come round to answering that particular question, given your knowledge on the subject.

apologies for that oversight - but security personnel collecting statelevies and taxes would bring the entire civil service out on Strike!

johnfás wrote:

My point was premised on whether or not such security existed at these airports. It took you several posts to come round to answering that particular question, given your knowledge on the subject.

Presumably you have to pay these airfields to take off, you could easy charge the levy there. Force the airports to add it as a surcharge on top of their departure fees.

You possibly have a point there - but I think if it was considered a financially viable prospect they would have gone with it - again I question if the fees that would be redeemed would be worth the bureaucracy, paperwork and union-wrangling required to set it up?

Dunno, ill conceived notions seem to be the currency of choice of our soldiers of destiny.

It would be much more economic just to slap a little extra tax on private plane licences, in lieu.

johnfás wrote:

Dunno, ill conceived notions seem to be the currency of choice of our soldiers of destiny.

quite!

I think you are on to something alright - there should be a centralised database/server thingamajijjy that all of there private airfields have to plug into - I compeletly agree with you in regard to carbon and environmental taxes in regard to the use of private aircraft- tho given the states wretched record in rolling out software and computerised systems that actually work and come in under budget - I wouldn't be holidng my breath here. The only reason it works for the main airports is that IATA - the private worldwide airline regulatory authority supervises it and the airlines pay for it collectively and all the government does is pass go and send in a private auditor to check the books every year or so.

Anyone got statistics for how many private jets we have in Ireland?

Another thing that could have been done is a higher VAT rate on luxury goods - as in perfume etc. VAT is by its very nature a regressive tax so if you increase the number of VAT tax bands you can make it as progressive as possible. Currently you pay 4.8% VAT on the sale of greyhounds or horses but 21% (rising to 21.5% next year) for groceries. Our highest VAT rate is on groceries. I never understand why perfume, Jimmy Choo's, cars above a certain value etc are not subject to a higher rate of VAT. This would surely bring in a fair bit.

That is of course a broader budgetary point rather than one aimed at aviation .

johnfás wrote:

Anyone got statistics for how many private jets we have in Ireland?

Another thing that could have been done is a higher VAT rate on luxury goods - as in perfume etc.

Contact the Aviation Authority in regard to how many are registered in Ireland - I would suspect - no that many - they may be operating in /to/from Ireland - but I suspect that Jersey, the Isle of Man, the Caymans and Monaco offer much more attractive rates

Black day for the Greens ?

Paul Gogarty this morning on Morning Ireland gave me the impression that this could be a showstopper issue for the Greens - he said he has identified €192 million where the Govt. can make savings instead of cutting book budgets for children, where a real impact will be felt. He said if they walk they will walk together. Actually I think he said 'jump'. Will there be furious discussions today and a jump later on if those cuts go ahead and the Greens not heeded ?

Meanwhile the Labour Party are organising a march on the Dáil today in protest at the cuts in Education. It's a bad weather day in the West to be marching if the Dáil was in the West.

Quote :

Govt facing new battle over budget cuts in education

After a week of withering criticism over the medical cards controversy, the Government now appears to be facing into another major fight over Budget cutbacks in education.

The Labour Party is planning to table a Dail motion next week calling for the reversal of the decision to increase the pupil-teacher ratio in Irish schools.

Another march on the Dáil is also being planned to coincide with the debate on the motion.

Yesterday, around 10,000 students protested at Leinster House over the budget decision to increase annual college registration fees from €900 to €1,500.

The Irish National Teachers Organisation, meanwhile, has warned that children could be sent home and schools may have to close because of Budget cuts in substitute cover.

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhidmhaugbcw/

Edo wrote:

johnfás wrote:

Anyone got statistics for how many private jets we have in Ireland?

Another thing that could have been done is a higher VAT rate on luxury goods - as in perfume etc.

Contact the Aviation Authority in regard to how many are registered in Ireland - I would suspect - no that many - they may be operating in /to/from Ireland - but I suspect that Jersey, the Isle of Man, the Caymans and Monaco offer much more attractive rates

Simplest thing would be to have the airfields collect. If they are not keeping records of who flies in and out, they should start now. We might end up collecting more from "non-residents" too.

This list of Education cuts was on the FG website - some of them strike me as particularly stupid, scrooge-like and horrific, in the context of the vast untouched wastage remaining in the Estimates.

List of 32 Education Cutbacks in Budget 2009

1. Reduce school building programme
2. 200 fewer primary school teachers
3. 200 fewer secondary school teachers
4. Reduction in English language support teachers
5. Reduction in staffing levels for previous non DEIS schools
6. Abolition of sub teachers from Jan '09
7. Early retirement scheme for teachers to be suspended
8. Cookery grant abolished
9. Equipment grant for resource teachers abolished
10. Reduction in traveller education budget
11. Grants for school choirs and orchestras abolished
12. Grants for home economics abolished
13. Grants for physics and chemistry abolished
14. reductions in Leaving Cert Applied, LCVP and transition year funding
15. Capital reduction for travelers and withdrawal of certain capital for schools that are not in DEIS programme
16. Saving of 7.5 million for school books in DEIS schools
17. Reduction in funding for local libraries who support school libraries
18. Subvention for summer courses conducted in Irish colleges in Gaeltacht areas withdrawn
19. Funding for Centre for Talented Youth withdrawn
20. College Registration Fees hiked to €1,500 from €900
21. Abolition of Early Childcare Centre
22. No increase in Student Maintenance Grants for '09
23. Reduction in provision of 500 places on BTEA initiative
24. Youth services grant reduced by 8%
25. Reduce teacher secondments to in-service training
26. Radical increase in school transport costs to €300
27. Increase State Examination costs
28. Reduction in Department's Regional Office Service
29. Non-implementation of EPSOM Act
30. Deferral of planned increase in medical education places
31. Restrictions in awards made to research councils
32. Failure to spend NDP commitment on ICT funding in schools

Cuts in supports for the most vulnerable groups, and failure to improve schools ICT, cuts in research.

Cuts in books and orchestras.

Cuts in resources for science teaching, one of our weakest areas in educational attainment.

cactus flower wrote:

This list of Education cuts was on the FG website - some of them strike me as particularly stupid, scrooge-like and horrific, in the context of the vast untouched wastage remaining in the Estimates.

List of 32 Education Cutbacks in Budget 2009

1. Reduce school building programme
2. 200 fewer primary school teachers
3. 200 fewer secondary school teachers
4. Reduction in English language support teachers
5. Reduction in staffing levels for previous non DEIS schools
6. Abolition of sub teachers from Jan '09
7. Early retirement scheme for teachers to be suspended
8. Cookery grant abolished
9. Equipment grant for resource teachers abolished
10. Reduction in traveller education budget
11. Grants for school choirs and orchestras abolished
12. Grants for home economics abolished
13. Grants for physics and chemistry abolished
14. reductions in Leaving Cert Applied, LCVP and transition year funding
15. Capital reduction for travelers and withdrawal of certain capital for schools that are not in DEIS programme
16. Saving of 7.5 million for school books in DEIS schools
17. Reduction in funding for local libraries who support school libraries
18. Subvention for summer courses conducted in Irish colleges in Gaeltacht areas withdrawn
19. Funding for Centre for Talented Youth withdrawn
20. College Registration Fees hiked to €1,500 from €900
21. Abolition of Early Childcare Centre
22. No increase in Student Maintenance Grants for '09
23. Reduction in provision of 500 places on BTEA initiative
24. Youth services grant reduced by 8%
25. Reduce teacher secondments to in-service training
26. Radical increase in school transport costs to €300
27. Increase State Examination costs
28. Reduction in Department's Regional Office Service
29. Non-implementation of EPSOM Act
30. Deferral of planned increase in medical education places
31. Restrictions in awards made to research councils
32. Failure to spend NDP commitment on ICT funding in schools

Cuts in supports for the most vulnerable groups, and failure to improve schools ICT, cuts in research.

Cuts in books and orchestras.

Cuts in resources for science teaching, one of our weakest areas in educational attainment.

It's interesting that there is noise going round now that this country is run by teachers and in their stranglehold - spin I suppose. That list makes my skin crawl considering the waste we know to exist in our management of finances. This is a kind of suicide of future personal capital or something - what are teachers and schools going to do without subs ? These cuts are just wrong.

Well done cactus for digging that up. Is there a vote on it tonight in the Dáil ?

Next week - I think Labour have table a motion. I think there will be a demonstration again.

Perhaps we should find all the TD's emails so people can email them?

Here they are - could we link them in the Politics section of Latest Discussions ?

http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/members_emails/30_Dail.doc

Some more budget analysis from the Indo this morning

Quote :

Nightmare Budget may send Ireland's standalone bookies straight to the wall

In the aftermath of the Budget, much public discussion has focused on some modest cutbacks in areas of public spending. Much less attention has been given to the businesses which were clobbered with tax hikes, so that free State goodies like medical cards can continue to be funded.

Generally, business got away lightly in the Budget, with payroll taxes and corporation tax left alone. But some sectors were singled out for attention. Life companies were hit with a three-point tax increase on managed funds, and travel agencies and airlines will suffer from the €10 travel tax next April.

For one sector in particular, the Budget was a nightmare come true. There are around 450 independent bookmakers around the country and next year they will be faced with a penal tax regime that will drive many of them to the wall.

Quote :

Budget u-turn over €200m capital gains tax blunder

FINANCE Minister Brian Lenihan is set for yet another Budget U-turn to prevent his plans to raise €200m in capital gains tax (CGT) next year from being scuppered.

As well as increasing the rate of CGT from 20 to 22 per cent in this year's Budget, Lenihan planned to get more money into the State coffers by bringing forward the date people would have to pay CGT. Traditionally people who sold assets between January and September paid CGT in October of that year, while people who sold between September and December paid CGT the following January.
..
Tax experts believe the Government would lose money in 2009 -- rather than raise €200m -- under this new rule. Although the Department of Finance declined to comment, Lenihan appears to have realised his mistake and is set to backtrack on the proposed move when he publishes the Finance Bill later this month.

More Budget u-turns expected today according to the Irish Independent.

* 3% levy to be introduced on earnings over 250,000. We knew this one but a change of policy nonetheless.

* Significant adjustment to the €10 airport departure tax.

* Adjustment to the employee car park levy.

* Adjustment to the employee bike scheme.


Should we just start again afresh and pretend the last budget didn't happen?

johnfás

Reading down that list and my initial reaction is pathetic. Banks imploding and the government is adjusting the employee bike scheme! Time they were out.

Be interesting to see how Ryanair share values react to whatever the significant adjustment is to departure tax?

johnfás wrote:

* Adjustment to the employee bike scheme.

There was no adjustment that I can see to this scheme. It is exactly as announced.
Bicycles are to be exempt from BIK. But under the scheme only one bicycle may be provided by the employer every 5 years (per employee).