Yanks and Guns

Guest

Tony. When i was growing up the murder rate was about 6 every year. It was such a horrific crime that it was major news for a long time. Most were committed by someone that was just insane. The situation whereby a man would have a serious querrel over say land and would decide to kill another man in advance was crazy. It may have happened but it certainly was very rare.

The murder rate in Ireland this year I would guess at 75 but of more concern is the trend and that is upward. Wishing it to be back like the old days is past the point of usefullness.

The only question now is whether a man is to allowed to defend himself or must he hide like you suggest Kane should have done. You say the guards are coming down on him like a ton of bricks. To you a ton of bricks means what 15 years and he is out at 30. To me a ton of bricks means hanging him where kane fell.

Cowering from a thug and hoping for his benevolence has never been sucessfull.

I believe Kane wished for a gun because it is likely that numerous times he did cower till he could take the taunting no longer.

I saw that Ahern on TV talking about legal firearms. The fact that he does not know how stupid he looks is lamentable

Guest

youngdan wrote:: Tony. When i was growing up the murder rate was about 6 every year. It was such a horrific crime that it was major news for a long time. Most were committed by someone that was just insane. The situation whereby a man would have a serious querrel over say land and would decide to kill another man in advance was crazy. It may have happened but it certainly was very rare.

The murder rate in Ireland this year I would guess at 75 but of more concern is the trend and that is upward. Wishing it to be back like the old days is past the point of usefullness.

The only question now is whether a man is to allowed to defend himself or must he hide like you suggest Kane should have done. You say the guards are coming down on him like a ton of bricks. To you a ton of bricks means what 15 years and he is out at 30. To me a ton of bricks means hanging him where kane fell.

Cowering from a thug and hoping for his benevolence has never been sucessfull.

I believe Kane wished for a gun because it is likely that numerous times he did cower till he could take the taunting no longer.

I saw that Ahern on TV talking about legal firearms. The fact that he does not know how stupid he looks is lamentable

If you extract the firearm related deaths from the US murder rate there is very little difference in rate per 100,000 between the total for Ireland and the balance in the USA. What these figures mean for Ireland is we can continue as we are and try to improve along the law enforcement road or we could go down the free availability of guns road as is the US way and add about 200 gun related deaths per year.
What would you recommend?

Guest

That is a good response Tony but you never responded to anything I said at all so what was the point in putting my post in with yours. As you did not refer to one word I said why did you not just say, Dan this is my opinion what do you think of my opinion.

I will press on with your points. Firstly you assume that if there were few guns in the US the extra murders would not have taken place. This is not the case. If a person wants someone dead then the method is secondary in the calculations. I am sure you have seen the clips where a cop pretends to be a murderer for hire and he asks how he is to kill the victim. The method is never important, just do it and how much. A certain number of murders are spur of the moment, grab a gun and shoot.

The murder rate whether with guns or hurls has little to due with the availability of weapons and everything to do with the socio-economic conditions people are living in.

The proof of this obvious situation is proven right here in New England. Boston has a population of 650000 and extremely strict gun control laws. A few miles away the state of Vermont has a similiar population. Vermont is the most liberal state in the Union but it is the easiest place to own a gun. You don't even need a licence to carry but you can even carry concealed.Everyone has handguns and rifles. Would you like to guess which has a high murder rate and which has a low murder rate.

In actual fact Vermont has a lower murder rate than Ireland per capita even though Vermont is packed with guns.

I have faith that you won't just ignore this fact as it does not suit you because if you intend doing door to door for FF the election after next people will not want to hear the rubbish Ahern was spouting today.

I and indeed everyone else are all
ears with regards ideas
for improving law enforcement.

Now address my concern. People will be looking for the means to defend themselves.

Is it your position to deprive him of the means. In the old days it might have been a hurl but today it is a gun and denying that fact leaves you dead.

The kid has a 9mm what do you recommend

Guest

Youngdan, not that this detracts from what you are saying, but I understand that Aidan O'Kane was shot while chasing the youths, no cowering. But that is just a minor point.

Still though, the emergence of a gun culture, legal or illegal is frankly a terrifying development.

Guest

Yes he was. I assume no one here knows the poor man. Now assuming is of course assuming but in this case I am assuming that he was a target of bullying by these thugs many times and he eventually chased. I am further assuming that it never entered his mind that he would face a knife not to mind a 9mm. If he had he would have cowered one more time. I did see a bit of the news and the report said that the police would look into the possibility that the egg throwing was to lure Kane out.

I do not know the backgrounds of some of the posters here and it seems that they never enjoyed a kick to a tender spot.

Speaking as a one time bully and a one time target of a bully, I can attest that a bully only respects force. End of story and the greater the better.

It is not just a gun culture, it is a savagery culture. How many lads have been kicked to death in the recent past

Let's say we were back in the days where swords were the weapon. A law depriving a man a sword would be an outrage. It would probably be called a Penal Law.

Guest

youngdan wrote:: That is a good response Tony but you never responded to anything I said at all so what was the point in putting my post in with yours. As you did not refer to one word I said why did you not just say, Dan this is my opinion what do you think of my opinion.

For two reasons;
1. I did address the point you raised about the murder rate in Ireland and suggested two ways we might go about dealing with that.
2. I post the way I post and not the way you post.

youngdan wrote:: I will press on with your points. Firstly you assume that if there were few guns in the US the extra murders would not have taken place. This is not the case. If a person wants someone dead then the method is secondary in the calculations. I am sure you have seen the clips where a cop pretends to be a murderer for hire and he asks how he is to kill the victim. The method is never important, just do it and how much. A certain number of murders are spur of the moment, grab a gun and shoot.

The murder rate whether with guns or hurls has little to due with the availability of weapons and everything to do with the socio-economic conditions people are living in.

The proof of this obvious situation is proven right here in New England. Boston has a population of 650000 and extremely strict gun control laws. A few miles away the state of Vermont has a similiar population. Vermont is the most liberal state in the Union but it is the easiest place to own a gun. You don't even need a licence to carry but you can even carry concealed.Everyone has handguns and rifles. Would you like to guess which has a high murder rate and which has a low murder rate.

In actual fact Vermont has a lower murder rate than Ireland per capita even though Vermont is packed with guns.

Why does Boston have a higher murder rate than close by Vermont? I don’t know is the straight answer, maybe the villainous Bostonians go to the good state of Vermont to buy the tools of their trade, I really can’t say.
I cannot argue on a place by place basis, I can only go on the overall figures and the conclusion there is inescapable, the easy availability of fire arms leads to an increased murder rate.

The fact is that once a society or group accepts the use of a gun as a legitimate means of self defence, very quickly the gun becomes the first means of self defence and equally quickly, as with our own brand of lubeen thug, the best means of defence becomes attack.

youngdan wrote:: I have faith that you won't just ignore this fact as it does not suit you because if you intend doing door to door for FF the election after next people will not want to hear the rubbish Ahern was spouting today.

I don’t do door to door for anyone, the horror of meeting the great unwashed would be more than could be tolerated, probably by both parties.
I might very well end up face to face with someone who had phoned in to J. Duffy and there I’d be, looking for a gun, with all my fine words gone for nought.
I pontificate on the internet only, along with the rest of the brave souls.

youngdan wrote:: I and indeed everyone else are all
ears with regards ideas
for improving law enforcement.

Now address my concern. People will be looking for the means to defend themselves.

Is it your position to deprive him of the means. In the old days it might have been a hurl but today it is a gun and denying that fact leaves you dead.

The kid has a 9mm what do you recommend

The majority grow stronger, more vocal, more active until & beyond when the message gets through that this sort of incident is not acceptable in our society and will be punished in the harshest way possible within the bounds of a civilised society.

Guest

So if Kane was relying on you to toss him a gun he would be out of luck and dead. Can nobody here answer a simple question. Would you have given Kane a gun or not.

If you are like the rest you will come back with waffle,

Guest

youngdan wrote:: So if Kane was relying on you to toss him a gun he would be out of luck and dead. Can nobody here answer a simple question. Would you have given Kane a gun or not.

If you are like the rest you will come back with waffle,

Thanks Dan, I’m glad I took the time.
We’ll talk again sometime.

Guest

In discussions like these it's probably best not to speculate as to the other party's background YD. I don't know if your point about background was addressed to me but as it happens I grew up in Tallaght and suffered more than a few kickings growing up. I also witnessed a few incidents where knives were brandished, and could well have been used had things turned out slightly differently. Keep in mind that I moved out of Tallaght when I was 12, so most of the parties to these disputes would have been about that age (some were older).

I'm not pretending that I had a particularly hard or eventful childhood, but I experienced enough to teach me one thing which I carry with me to this day; that when you're up against scum like that, you can't win. You might be walking down the street and they will for no reason decide to hurl abuse at you, or stones. Even so much as look at them and they're right in front of you getting in your face. At that point there's no getting away unscathed; you're in for a dig. Usually if you shut up and take it they'll give you a few and take off. Stand up to them, act tough to them and suddenly there's a knife involved. Pull your own knife and, these days, you may well find yourself looking at a gun.

And then, let's say we're in your ideal society where everybody is loaded to the teeth. So you pull your own gun and stick it right back in his face. What happens next? He and his friends apologize and promise not to bother you in the future? Maybe you all make up over a pint? You really think tense situations like the one I described will fizzle out by introducing more force into the equation? No. In a situation like that, chances are at least one person is going to get shot, and it'll probably be you. But let's take the most optimum best case scenario, you shoot the scumbag and the rest of them clear off. You think it ends there? You've just killed someone's brother, someone's son, someone's friend, maybe someone's drug runner and someone's fellow gang member. And chances are the dead kid's not the only one with a gun.

My point is that force cannot be combatted by force because those initiating the force in the first place, like the thugs throwing eggs at O'Kane's house, always have the greater force. What you are suggesting might seem like a good idea on the surface, but effectively it risks turning every isolated incident into a full-blown street war and dragging perfectly decent people into the cycle of violence. That is the summary of my argument.

It sounds depressing, but once these scumbags have you in their sites you are already a victim, a statistic. What kind of a victim you are and how much you lose depends on how much you are willing to fight your human urge to stand up to yourself. The individual has no power against a widespread culture of savagery and violence; the State does. And that is why more and better armed Gardai is the only viable solution.

Guest

As I expected Tony would not answer the simple question. Well
Tony if you can not understand why Vermont has a lower murder rate then you should take a holiday in Moyross and think about.

That fact does not suit your dream world

Guest

Ever. Of course one young lad walking down Tallaght is going to get a dig. The situation is gone so far now that the time for happy talk is over. Kids ruling the street and terrifying the populous is outlandish. That is a third world banana republic.

Half the problem is some do not admit that even a problem exists but talk about education or work programmes or more dole and free corporation houses. This army of Mother Theresas ain't gonna do Jack Squat. Now we have people afraid to testify or they will get killed.

I am sorry I ever saw that
donkey Ahern on TV. The fool is talking about legal firearms while kids are packing black market weapons left right and centre. Illegal glocks are more common and cheaper than playstations and this stupid fool is in Cloud Cuckoo Land. Why does he not resign. The lug can not protect citizens from being butchered on the street even.

It appears to me as if the entire government are just complete and utter fools. The can not even piss straight.

I had entended to check out Smith but he is likely another gombeen man.

I will be back later or maybe tomorrow with solutions but this Ahern Oaf is just too much at the moment

Guest

Auditor #9 wrote:: Why do you think I'm thinking about converting replica guns into live ones ?

Sorry were you talking to me? If so I don't, I asked a question if those type of replicas were legal in ireland for a personal reason - namely I knew a bloke in college who bought one. I always wondered if this was legal or not....

Dan seems to me to be half right. that bloke would have taken a gun in his last seconds if he was offered one. That doesn't prove his point though. But he was spot on in identifying socio-economic casues as the driver of gun crime - at least in my opinion. For the record I think the way to solve gun crime would be decriminisation of drugs. Gun crime everywhere has risen with the decriminalisation of drugs, a phenomenon that has only occured as recnetly as the 1960's in some cases - notably the UK. Switzerland's decrim. policy seems more likely to have lead to less gun crime that any other factor. Or so it seems to me.

Guest

shutuplaura wrote:: Dan seems to me to be half right. that bloke would have taken a gun in his last seconds if he was offered one. That doesn't prove his point though. But he was spot on in identifying socio-economic casues as the driver of gun crime - at least in my opinion.

His solution to this socio-economic problem leading to gun crime? Shoot the fuckers.
This just shows what he’s really at, arguing for the sake of it.

Guest

What is happening in the working class communities is happening because there was no work and no facilties for young people for twenty years and because there there were literally no Gardai on the street - they were all pulled back into cars years ago, and have no impact.

In the nearest town to me they have got two Gardai on mountain bikes now- that has made some change as the little so and sos don't see or here them coming.

The other thing is that there is a vast amount of coke coming into the country. Where is that coming from?

Guest

shutuplaura wrote:

Auditor #9 wrote:: Why do you think I'm thinking about converting replica guns into live ones ?

Sorry were you talking to me? If so I don't, I asked a question if those type of replicas were legal in ireland for a personal reason - namely I knew a bloke in college who bought one. I always wondered if this was legal or not....

Dan seems to me to be half right. that bloke would have taken a gun in his last seconds if he was offered one. That doesn't prove his point though. But he was spot on in identifying socio-economic casues as the driver of gun crime - at least in my opinion. For the record I think the way to solve gun crime would be decriminisation of drugs. Gun crime everywhere has risen with the decriminalisation of drugs, a phenomenon that has only occured as recnetly as the 1960's in some cases - notably the UK. Switzerland's decrim. policy seems more likely to have lead to less gun crime that any other factor. Or so it seems to me.

No I waa addressing youngdan there. He is asking in general if guns need to be introduced as means of self defence and as a knee-jerk I'd agree with him - it levels the playing field.

There's no way it's the solution though as the scenario which evercloserunion above illustrates with a confrontation event that quickly and dangerously escalates. This kind of thing I have seen first hand when telling someone who asked me for a fag "sorry I don't smoke", getting an earful of abuse for that from them and then foolishly responding that I didn't deserve the abuse so the next thing is I'm looking at a knife. I said no more and went straight to the law as I was shocked that this kind of thing could happen so casually on the street. In a gun culture I may not have had the chance to take the better part of valour option. It's not an option to just shut your mouth and take abuse.

It's a big enough issue here now. There seems to be way too much aggression around but there's no way a gun culture would solve it but would only make it worse as there would be casual slayings that would escalate into tribal warfare as it appears to have done already in Limerick.

The teacher last night on Prime Time made the point that it's the responsibility of society or our country as a whole or our culture which needs to fix this and it will not be overnight. Gun licences are not the answer in my own view - that's a quick fix that will not deal with the problem. The only 'study' I know is the Michael Moore film 'Bowling for Columbine' and he comes to the conclusion that between Canada and the U.S. the biggest difference besides the disparity in gun crime is the culture of fear that exists in the U.S. but doesn't in Canada. However right or wrong he is guns will not fix this and there are deep cultural and social questions to be asked.

(I'm not sure what you need to play these pieces - Windows Media Player I think. If you have problems let us know and we'll try to get you set up)

Aidan O'Kane
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1209/primetime_av.html?2460987,null,230

The meat crisis
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1209/primetime_av.html?2460984,null,230

http://www.rte.ie/news/primetime/

Guest

Audi

Arming everyone to the teeth does not solve crime. All it does is enable, no require, the criminals to be more violent. Yes you can be killed with a kitchen knife, and a gun would up stage such a threat, but would it if the criminals were packing serious hardware. I very much doubt it. Also people fantasise about how they would behave if threatened. I wonder just how many could calmly take out a gun and deliberately shoot several people dead? In reality under such an attack that is what you would have to do for if you hesitated or botched it that is what they would do to you.

When it comes to resisting a brutal state, arms in that situation would help but to be effective you would really need to be organised FAST and be prepared for a long and brutal struggle.

We should also not forget that there are vested interests involved.

Yanks and Guns - Page 5 Plaxico-glock

Guest

youngdan wrote:: As I expected Tony would not answer the simple question. Well
Tony if you can not understand why Vermont has a lower murder rate then you should take a holiday in Moyross and think about.

That fact does not suit your dream world

Canada has a much lower murder rate too. There is a massive cultural difference between rural Vermont, rural Canada, and the towns and cities where gun crime is prevalent. Arm a rural Canadian to the teeth and he'll come back with dead birds and animals. Arm some young men in Compton or the Bronx to the teeth and they'll end up on death row. Same goes here, Dublin, Limerick, and Cork cities are very different to rural Co. Donegal. The 'right' to bear arms is fine as far as responsible, self-disciplined owners are concerned, but you can't have it both ways, once they have that right to bear arms, the others do too. And nobody here wants a country where kids have to walk through metal detectors going in to school.

And yes, IF I had a gun, I'd have thrown it to him, but a) that's a big 'if'; b) extreme cases do not make good law; and c) the use of that man's murder as ammunition (excuse unintended pun) for your own argument is tasteless in the extreme.

Guest

cactus flower wrote:: What is happening in the working class communities is happening because there was no work and no facilties for young people for twenty years and because there there were literally no Gardai on the street - they were all pulled back into cars years ago, and have no impact.

In the nearest town to me they have got two Gardai on mountain bikes now- that has made some change as the little so and sos don't see or here them coming.

The other thing is that there is a vast amount of coke coming into the country. Where is that coming from?

Afghanisatan. The Taliban had wiped poppy production out. Within a year of the US invasion poppy production was in full swing. John Pilger:

Quote :: Return of opium

The British military have played an important part in this violence, having stepped up high- altitude bombing by up to 30 per cent since they took over command of Nato forces in Afghan istan in May 2006. This translated to more than 6,200 Afghan deaths last year. In December, a contrived news event was the "fall" of a "Taliban stronghold", Musa Qala, in southern Afghan istan. Puppet government forces were allowed to "liberate" rubble left by American B-52s.
What justifies this? Various fables have been spun - "building democracy" is one. "The war on drugs" is the most perverse. When the Americans invaded Afghanistan in 2001 they had one striking success. They brought to an abrupt end a historic ban on opium production that the Taliban regime had achieved. A UN official in Kabul described the ban to me as "a modern miracle". The miracle was quickly rescinded. As a reward for supporting the Karzai "democracy", the Americans allowed Northern Alliance warlords to replant the country's entire opium crop in 2002. Twenty-eight out of the 32 provinces instantly went under cultivation. Today, 90 per cent of world trade in opium originates in Afghan istan. In 2005, a British government report estima ted that 35,000 children in this country were using heroin. While the British taxpayer pays for a £1bn military super-base in Helmand Province and the second-biggest British embassy in the world, in Kabul, peanuts are spent on drug rehabilitation at home.

Full article: http://www.oilempire.us/afghanistan.html

'Whiteout' by Alexander Cockburn and Jeffrey St Clair is essential reading for anyone who wants to understand the role of the US government/CIA in drug trafficing:

Link

Moe information: http://www.france24.com/france24Public/en/archives/news/world/20070827-afghanistan-drugs-increase-opium-un-estimates-poppy.php

Guest

cactus flower wrote:: What is happening in the working class communities is happening because there was no work and no facilties for young people for twenty years and because there there were literally no Gardai on the street -

But surely there are other reasons. Not all working class or poor areas are trouble hot spots. I would happily walk through the shanty towns of India (apart from the odour), but I would think long and hard before any such excursion through one of Brazil's favela.

Strikes me that much has to do with parental responsibility, values of society, and cohesion within the community. There is also an abuse of liberal values. Say I was attacked by some ne're do well and by chance injured said person, I could end up the one charged. Or if someone entered Squire Hall uninvited late at night and went through an incomplete floor, then guess who would be on the defensive. Indeed it is worse than that for in such circumstances the ordinary citizen has to pay for their defense and the poor deprived fellow does not. This is utter decadence. You have to have zero tolerance for crime and that includes public representatives who find themselves with strange amounts in their suitcase, bankers etc etc. None of it is acceptable yet in Ireland we re elect such people and venerate them when they depart this earth. It is utter hypocrisy and debased standards. A few more cops won't solve it. More effective cops, and a real respect and support for for law and order might.

Guest

Squire
I agree with what you say - the answer is not self defence. I don't know what the answer is to the savagery we're saeeing more and more but some figures suggest that guns aren't that integral to either the problem or the solution.

Guest

youngdan wrote:: Ever. Of course one young lad walking down Tallaght is going to get a dig. The situation is gone so far now that the time for happy talk is over. Kids ruling the street and terrifying the populous is outlandish. That is a third world banana republic.

Half the problem is some do not admit that even a problem exists but talk about education or work programmes or more dole and free corporation houses. This army of Mother Theresas ain't gonna do Jack Squat. Now we have people afraid to testify or they will get killed.

I am sorry I ever saw that
donkey Ahern on TV. The fool is talking about legal firearms while kids are packing black market weapons left right and centre. Illegal glocks are more common and cheaper than playstations and this stupid fool is in Cloud Cuckoo Land. Why does he not resign. The lug can not protect citizens from being butchered on the street even.

It appears to me as if the entire government are just complete and utter fools. The can not even piss straight.

I had entended to check out Smith but he is likely another gombeen man.

I will be back later or maybe tomorrow with solutions but this Ahern Oaf is just too much at the moment

What do you mean it's outlandish YD? Are you saying that it's an unrealistic view of the situation, ie that it's not happening? Because I can tell you it is, and recent events confirm that. Or are you saying that it shouldn't be happening? Well I don't know why you'd say that, it's hardly a contentious point. I think we both agree that working class communities shouldn't live in fear of young thugs with guns. What I'm saying is that your idea of just shooting back is only going to make things worse. I demonstrated why I think that in the above post, which you largely failed to address.

Guest

"The answer is not self defence".

Well then it is acceptance is it not.

I don't need to use Kane's murder as ammunition for my argument as there will be another murder next week and being tasteless is immaterial because the time fore tastefull solutions is past

I would have thought that everyone would toss Kane a gun in his time of need but I guess that is not the case

The people are killing because they are knackers.

Guest

Squire wrote:

cactus flower wrote:: What is happening in the working class communities is happening because there was no work and no facilties for young people for twenty years and because there there were literally no Gardai on the street -

But surely there are other reasons. Not all working class or poor areas are trouble hot spots. I would happily walk through the shanty towns of India (apart from the odour), but I would think long and hard before any such excursion through one of Brazil's favela.

Strikes me that much has to do with parental responsibility, values of society, and cohesion within the community. There is also an abuse of liberal values. Say I was attacked by some ne're do well and by chance injured said person, I could end up the one charged. Or if someone entered Squire Hall uninvited late at night and went through an incomplete floor, then guess who would be on the defensive. Indeed it is worse than that for in such circumstances the ordinary citizen has to pay for their defense and the poor deprived fellow does not. This is utter decadence. You have to have zero tolerance for crime and that includes public representatives who find themselves with strange amounts in their suitcase, bankers etc etc. None of it is acceptable yet in Ireland we re elect such people and venerate them when they depart this earth. It is utter hypocrisy and debased standards. A few more cops won't solve it. More effective cops, and a real respect and support for for law and order might.

There was a lot more that a lack of policing that led to the state of some of our communities, but lack of policing contributed to it, and still does. The house purchase grants in the 1980s enabled everyone in work to get a private house for a few thousand - estates were left with empty houses everywhere and in many cases not a single person in employment left.
In one mindless blow, the most vulnerable were ghettoised and left to be terrorised by a handful of bullies.

Guest

I am saying it is outlandish that it is happening, that it is allowed to happen, that people accept it and that people are forced to accept it as they can not defend themselves.

There is a saying that an armed society is a polite society.

If the thug knew that the victim was armed and his life was over if he bullied to you think he would try the bully tactics.

All I hear is talk of money being spent to help them. That is just fancy talk for a kid giving up his lunch money. It has not worked.

It is a question of crime and punishment. except the punishment is not great enough to counter the crime.

Your point about every punch-up turning into a shoot- out is not what happens in real life, up to now anyway.

However some segments of society have become so dumb that not even this can hold.

I await the next killing

Guest

youngdan wrote:: If the thug knew that the victim was armed and his life was over if he bullied to you think he would try the bully tactics.

In America they generally do, and they are, and they do.