The Irish Banking Bother: /Anglo 10 /Gardaí raid Anglo offices/ AIB '08 results 2nd March

I am sure there is a procedure to try and get a grip on these places just examinership isn't it.

We could always legislate but of course that would probably end up causing more problems that it would solve.

Auditor #9 wrote:

Dermot Ahern wants the 10 named .... O'Dea says the Office of Corporate Enforcement can't release the names because it might prejudice a future case and compromise possible potential future justice for the sake of satisfying curiosity now.

FG are saying if Cowen knew these people then the country should know so Cowen and the Govt. shouldn't be trusted and FG say they do know who these Golden friends are ...


O'Dea says Enda is impugning the intergrity of Cowen and O'Dea by insinuating that Govt. members colluded with Anglo's Golden Circle ....

FG are aware that if 10 customers of Anglo were selected as being able to come up with this dosh then they are probably developers. FG are further aware that FF have been lobbied by all big developers as FF have been in power for the last 10 years and were fleecing these guys for fundraising dinners during that period.

The chances of the Taoiseach not having had some contact most of these guys is about a million to one. Kenny is trying to dramatise this to infuse it with a sense of intrigue and thereby damage the Government. This is spin at its spinniest.

Cowen and his corps must diffuse this somehow. If they cannot make people bored then they will have to scour the records for connections between these people and FG at fundraisers or otherwise.

All in all though it is a just case of spin on spin. Kenny needs to stop tuning his fiddle imho. I reckon Gilmore will take a more reasonable approach at the last minute thereby making Kenny look silly again.

Zhou_Enlai wrote:

Auditor #9 wrote:

Dermot Ahern wants the 10 named .... O'Dea says the Office of Corporate Enforcement can't release the names because it might prejudice a future case and compromise possible potential future justice for the sake of satisfying curiosity now.

FG are saying if Cowen knew these people then the country should know so Cowen and the Govt. shouldn't be trusted and FG say they do know who these Golden friends are ...


O'Dea says Enda is impugning the intergrity of Cowen and O'Dea by insinuating that Govt. members colluded with Anglo's Golden Circle ....

FG are aware that if 10 customers of Anglo were selected as being able to come up with this dosh then they are probably developers.

Surely the point is that there was no need to come up with the dosh. It was a free lottery ticket. The fact that FF are looking so shifty on this suggests to me that some or all of the 10 are too close to the centre of things to be deniable. There must be a least a back bencher or two involved. If not, they should have just released the names and nobody would've been in the least surprised to see a bunch of builders and other Galway tent hangers-on. What gives the whole mystery legs is that when Cowen stands up and says he doesn't know or care who the 10 are, most of the country suspect some of them are sitting within a few meters of him. Until the 10 are listed, this will run.

Zhou_Enlai wrote:

FG are further aware that FF have been lobbied by all big developers as FF have been in power for the last 10 years and were fleecing these guys for fundraising dinners during that period.

The chances of the Taoiseach not having had some contact most of these guys is about a million to one. Kenny is trying to dramatise this to infuse it with a sense of intrigue and thereby damage the Government. This is spin at its spinniest.

Cowen and his corps must diffuse this somehow. If they cannot make people bored then they will have to scour the records for connections between these people and FG at fundraisers or otherwise.

All in all though it is a just case of spin on spin. Kenny needs to stop tuning his fiddle imho. I reckon Gilmore will take a more reasonable approach at the last minute thereby making Kenny look silly again.

Good point - how sure are FG that none of the 10 are blueshirts?
Kenny needs to stop tuning his fiddle? What do you mean by this? That he needs to shut up or that he needs to pull the trigger?

This is what the Independent said this morning:

Quote :

Mr Cowen dined privately with Anglo Irish Bank directors at a Dublin hotel just weeks after he had been warned of a dangerous position with the bank's shares that threatened the entire Irish financial system.

Mr Cowen was Finance Minister at the time and was told only weeks before about problems at the bank with the shareholding of multi-millionaire businessman, Sean Quinn.

He met the Anglo bankers on the night of April 24 last when he was already Taoiseach-in-waiting and when his close friend, Fintan Drury, was a member of Anglo's board, chairing its risks and compliance committee.

The occasion was not an official public engagement, and no briefing note or formal speech was prepared by officials for the then Finance Minister.

A government spokesman insisted last night: "Private meetings are common between finance ministers and banks across the board."

Mr Cowen was aware at the time of a large overhang of shares held by the Quinn Group and members of the family.

The accession of Mr Cowen to the office of Taoiseach in early May was followed the next month by the retirement of his friend, Mr Drury, as a non-executive director of the bank.

In July, the Finance Minister -- by then Brian Lenihan -- was assured by the Financial Regulator that the Anglo shares issue had been successfully resolved, but learned no further details

This kind of private dinner with a Minister for Finance might be common here, but imo is not proper, and should not be common. A Minister for Finance should be aware of the potential for undue influence and should keep a distance and formality about proceedings.

This is precisely the kind of custom and practice that has people talking about "cosy cartels".

It has been going though my mind a lot that these people, or at least some of them, did not see what they were doing as wrong: in their minds they were fighting for the solvency of their company and the economy and were prepared to do what they thought was necessary, rather than what was right. Perhaps they have a confusion of thinking that makes them see their own personal well-being as essential for the well-being of the nation.

If their well-being required hiding transactions and cooking the books, so be it. And if a handy few million capital gains tax relief could be got out of it, well, that was only what they were entitled to, in their minds, after their ten hard years of property speculation or other investment. If its correct that they will get this tax relief, well, isn't that just the icing on the cake?

At the other end of the spectrum, services are closed and people sacked with half an hour's notice.

What a beautiful system.

I think really I have to disagree with you there. There is nothing wrong with the Minister for Finance having dinner with directors of one of the major banks. Obviously in the current circumstance it may appear dodgy but frankly major business interests in any given sector have a right to be heard by Government as do major non business interest groups.

I don't think we would be hearing the same complaints if it was discovered that the Minister for Justice had a private dinner with the Director of Amnesty International, though I am sure that it has happened or the Minister for Enterprise with a consumer group. The same must apply to business interests, both have a right to be heard.

That said, I do agree that a cosy consensus can occur and that when a Minister is meeting too regularly or taking too much from an interest group, be that whoever, then a conflict of interest can arise. That was perhaps the case in the current circumstance, it certainly seems to have been the case in respect of construction lobby groups. However, I don't think that this report in particular brings anything to the table in terms of establishing that as the case.

Beyond which the term private dinner which you naturally italicise is a spin put on it by the Irish Independent. I mean they are hardly going to bring the Minister for Finance for dinner in McDonalds are they.

johnfás wrote:

I think really I have to disagree with you there. There is nothing wrong with the Minister for Finance having dinner with directors of one of the major banks. Obviously in the current circumstance it may appear dodgy but frankly major business interests in any given sector have a right to be heard by Government as do major non business interest groups.

I don't think we would be hearing the same complaints if it was discovered that the Minister for Justice had a private dinner with the Director of Amnesty International, though I am sure that it has happened or the Minister for Enterprise with a consumer group. The same must apply to business interests, both have a right to be heard.

That said, I do agree that a cosy consensus can occur and that when a Minister is meeting too regularly or taking too much from an interest group, be that whoever, then a conflict of interest can arise. That was perhaps the case in the current circumstance, it certainly seems to have been the case in respect of construction lobby groups. However, I don't think that this report in particular brings anything to the table in terms of establishing that as the case.

Your not getting the point johnfas. I have no bother with an official dinner with a bit of a welcome speech, a ten minute oration from BC and some nice apres diner chat - all in the public eye.

I think you will find that this kind of private contact would not be smiled on in other jurisdictions, and when it does happen, relationships are inevitable corrupted.

Name me a jurisdiction where that would be the case. Governments in all countries meet with lobby groups of different natures. That is not in itself inherently corrupt.

What you are saying is frankly nonsense. A major business interest has a right to make its opinion known to the Minister. That does not have to be made through a ten minute speech at an official function.

The indo story is a perfect example of propaganda. They are reporting a normal event from a different time now to distort its meaning. All it means is they have changed editorial tack again. It's hard to know the motive but it is apparent that some motive exists.

The "tuning his fiddle" comment is a reference to Nero. Kenny needs to focus on the problems as Bruton does and to stop focussing on the politicial point scoring.

Kenny is entitled to ask who the 10 people were and to call for the full rigour of the law to be applied. However when he starts focussing on whether the Taoiseach has met these people his comments take on the appearance of self-interest rather than national interest. That is not good for Kenny.

20th January in the Dail - on Appointing an Inspector before Anglo is nationalised

Michael D. Higgins

Ruairi Quinn

Michael Noonan

Ciaran Lynch

Alan Shatter

Richard Bruton

I wouldn't dispute that the Indo story is propaganda. It is well done propaganda though, feeding as it does off the public perception that the authorities have at best been asleep at the wheel but more likely been up to their oxters in the whole heist.

Your Nero reference isn't quite apt. Enda isn't the Emporer (yet). It's the Brians running the show now and it is they who need to change the tune.

Open Window on the Pin:


This is a grotesque outrage.

The state is now firmly in the grip of unelected agents of sinister influence.

The Anglo nationalization is a massive cover up bursting at the seems. The orgy of incest looks soon to break itself loose but the price to our collective well being is much too massive to ignore.

The politicians have been for some time now abdicating their democratic mandate to govern but more recently in a terrifyingly wreckless manner for all the world to see. Marking themselves as irrelevant as they choose to hide behind the flimsy cover of the subterfuge of "process & protocol".

In the face of this unique power vacum people of Ireland must first assuage the doubts of any Local Fianna Fail or Green Party Councillors and TD's alike by pleding solid assurances that they will never see the halls of power in this country again by ballot or by force.

Be it by phone call, letter, email or a simple clinic call in. Most of us live within a few kilometres of elected representatives. Ireland is a small community. People acting locally across the country make the loudest noise of all.

The State is essentially collapsed. Its time to pledge you guarantee that all currently in power will never ever be allowed do it again.

PM Open Window if you know anything of the Golden circles.

http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=18918






Mary Couglan announced it in the Dáil that the 10 would not be revealed in the annual report out tomorrow.....
http://www.rte.ie/business/2009/0219/anglo.html

I would have thought these guys still have a right to privacy like everyone else who has a bank account or owns shares.

Until such time as a crime has been proven in a court at least ..

So I don't quite understand all the calls for them to be named - yet.

Have to say I am with EVM on this. We do have a process of law. What we should be calling for is the vigorous enforcement of it, rather than witchunts seeking to usurp the law... these tends to bring less fruitful conclusions in the long run anyway.

Johnfás, I think you posted somewhere that the Data Protection Act entitles people to privacy in their affairs, financial or otherwise. This particular scenario included.

I saw Senator Joe O' Toole saying in the Senate that he could not think of any legislation which prevented them from being named.

Why would our legislators not be aware of this. Or are they ignoring the existing laws for the sake of politics ?

Auditor #9 wrote:

Open Window on the Pin:


This is a grotesque outrage.

The state is now firmly in the grip of unelected agents of sinister influence.

The Anglo nationalization is a massive cover up bursting at the seems. The orgy of incest looks soon to break itself loose but the price to our collective well being is much too massive to ignore.

The politicians have been for some time now abdicating their democratic mandate to govern but more recently in a terrifyingly wreckless manner for all the world to see. Marking themselves as irrelevant as they choose to hide behind the flimsy cover of the subterfuge of "process & protocol".

In the face of this unique power vacum people of Ireland must first assuage the doubts of any Local Fianna Fail or Green Party Councillors and TD's alike by pleding solid assurances that they will never see the halls of power in this country again by ballot or by force.

Be it by phone call, letter, email or a simple clinic call in. Most of us live within a few kilometres of elected representatives. Ireland is a small community. People acting locally across the country make the loudest noise of all.

The State is essentially collapsed. Its time to pledge you guarantee that all currently in power will never ever be allowed do it again.

PM Open Window if you know anything of the Golden circles.

Twat.

tonys, I feel your pain, but would you not express it more elegantly?

cactus flower wrote:

tonys, I feel your pain, but would you not express it more elegantly?

I'm feeling no pain, I am naturally irritable and a display of mouth minus functioning brain upsets me so.

BTW, you should have seen my initial response.

tonys wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

tonys, I feel your pain, but would you not express it more elegantly?

I'm feeling no pain, I am naturally irritable and a display of mouth minus functioning brain upsets me so.

BTW, you should have seen my initial response.

If I had, I would have modded it.

What age is "Open Window"? 14? His post should be circulated to every school in the country as an example of flowery writing at its worst. Some people shouldn't be let near a thesaurus.

Zhou_Enlai wrote:

What age is "Open Window"? 14? His post should be circulated to every school in the country as an example of flowery writing at its worst. Some people shouldn't be let near a thesaurus.

I thought they were all wiped out in the last ice age, no?

I don't think so, but I have never seen a woolly thesaurus. Perhas that is where the confusion lies.

tonys wrote:

Auditor #9 wrote:

Open Window on the Pin:


This is a grotesque outrage.

The state is now firmly in the grip of unelected agents of sinister influence.

The Anglo nationalization is a massive cover up bursting at the seems. The orgy of incest looks soon to break itself loose but the price to our collective well being is much too massive to ignore.

The politicians have been for some time now abdicating their democratic mandate to govern but more recently in a terrifyingly wreckless manner for all the world to see. Marking themselves as irrelevant as they choose to hide behind the flimsy cover of the subterfuge of "process & protocol".

In the face of this unique power vacum people of Ireland must first assuage the doubts of any Local Fianna Fail or Green Party Councillors and TD's alike by pleding solid assurances that they will never see the halls of power in this country again by ballot or by force.

Be it by phone call, letter, email or a simple clinic call in. Most of us live within a few kilometres of elected representatives. Ireland is a small community. People acting locally across the country make the loudest noise of all.

The State is essentially collapsed. Its time to pledge you guarantee that all currently in power will never ever be allowed do it again.

PM Open Window if you know anything of the Golden circles.

Twat.

To keep CF happy I shall expand my reply.
I am not a member of the pin, so if someone who is could oblige me by pm'ing "open window" with the following message;

I know nothing of "golden circles" but the toe of my boot would dearly love to meet yours.

Kindest regards

Tonys

Zhou_Enlai wrote:

I don't think so, but I have never seen a woolly thesaurus. Perhas that is where the confusion lies.

You could well be right, for me confusion often reigns and me without an umbrella.

Zhou_Enlai wrote:

What age is "Open Window"? 14? His post should be circulated to every school in the country as an example of flowery writing at its worst. Some people shouldn't be let near a thesaurus.

Where is Audi's Pyramid of poxy responses when I need it? You've nicely dismissed the form of Open Window's post but ignored the substance. I will summarise in non-flowery prose.

1) The Government have destroyed our financial system in how they dealt with Anglo.
2) Soon they will have destroyed the whole economy.
3) As a result we should contact our elected reps from Government parties and remind them they will be made pay for their corruption and/or ineptitude.

Is that clear enough for the media monitoring unit?

coc wrote:

Zhou_Enlai wrote:

What age is "Open Window"? 14? His post should be circulated to every school in the country as an example of flowery writing at its worst. Some people shouldn't be let near a thesaurus.

Where is Audi's Pyramid of poxy responses when I need it? You've nicely dismissed the form of Open Window's post but ignored the substance. I will summarise in non-flowery prose.

1) The Government have destroyed our financial system in how they dealt with Anglo.
2) Soon they will have destroyed the whole economy.
3) As a result we should contact our elected reps from Government parties and remind them they will be made pay for their corruption and/or ineptitude.

Is that clear enough for the media monitoring unit?

As clear as all of your responses and as wrong as most of them.
I strongly suspect that you wouldn't know a destroyed financial system if it jumped up and bit you on the arse to draw attention to itself and that would be after the fact much less before.