Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod

One of the reasons I don't support Libertas, aside from Ganley's obvious lack of sympathy with worker representation and combining, is their enthusiasm for the EU, in particular their support for federalism. I am indeed a Eurosceptic (though of a realistic hue, I don't advocate withdrawal, I don't think we can even reverse very much of what we have acceded to without pretty severe consequences for us), and any party that advocates embracing the European project (even in its most democratic or accountable form possible) is a bit too enthusiastic for me.

And FA, I know it is becoming a closed theory at this point, my denials feeding into the conspiracy loop, but I swear on my life and on the Holy Bible (I'm a Catholic) that I am not a member of or supporter of Libertas, I really do only speak up because I don't like politically-motivated smear-jobs. And I applaud Ganley pulling himself up because I recognise, as someone who grew up the English-born child of Irish emigrants, the very struggle he had to do so, one common to an awful lot of those who left Ireland in the circumstances that they did in the 50s and 80s. It doesn't mean I know (nor, at this point, care) every choice he made after that, nor necessarily applaud it, but I see someone who didn't fall into the trap of many I knew, p1ssing their future against a pub wall. He was bright and able and determined, and he took risks. I think that is admirable. If he ended up making later profit by dealing with those who stole the resources of the Russian people after the Soviet fall, that I don't applaud (but I'm not stupid enough to think someone else wouldn't have done it anyway). All of which is irrelevant to the politics, which are singularly lacking on these pages and pages of discussion (if it can be so dignified with the term)...

cookiemonster wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

There is far too much mystery made of Ganley's politics.

Nice choice of words there "mystery made", may mystery around it certainly is made.
He's pro-maket and he's catholic. There is no mystery in what that means.

Quote :

They are very clear from the company he keeps:

That statement is a load of nonsense and more so for Ganley that for anybody else I know. I'm not religious, I'm not homophobic, I'm not a nationalist, I'm hardly any of the things you lot have accused Ganley of being (come to think of it, he is hardly any of the things you people have accused him of being) so your "you're judged by your associates" - as Dick Roach nicely put it - argument is a load of crap.

You don't think people should be judged by their associates so why make a "you people" out of the very wide variety of people who say the same things about Declan Ganley?

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/go/tag/view/blog_post/Philippe%20de%20Villiers

Quote :

I received last weekend a letter from Philippe de Villiers.
Mr de Villiers might be known to readers of this newspaper rather better as the leader of the Euro sceptic “Mouvement pour la France”

toxic avenger wrote:

One of the reasons I don't support Libertas, aside from Ganley's obvious lack of sympathy with worker representation and combining, is their enthusiasm for the EU, in particular their support for federalism. I am indeed a Eurosceptic (though of a realistic hue, I don't advocate withdrawal, I don't think we can even reverse very much of what we have acceded to without pretty severe consequences for us), and any party that advocates embracing the European project (even in its most democratic or accountable form possible) is a bit too enthusiastic for me.

And FA, I know it is becoming a closed theory at this point, my denials feeding into the conspiracy loop, but I swear on my life and on the Holy Bible (I'm a Catholic) that I am not a member of or supporter of Libertas, I really do only speak up because I don't like politically-motivated smear-jobs. And I applaud Ganley pulling himself up because I recognise, as someone who grew up the English-born child of Irish emigrants, the very struggle he had to do so, one common to an awful lot of those who left Ireland in the circumstances that they did in the 50s and 80s. It doesn't mean I know (nor, at this point, care) every choice he made after that, nor necessarily applaud it, but I see someone who didn't fall into the trap of many I knew, p1ssing their future against a pub wall. He was bright and able and determined, and he took risks. I think that is admirable. If he ended up making later profit by dealing with those who stole the resources of the Russian people after the Soviet fall, that I don't applaud (but I'm not stupid enough to think someone else wouldn't have done it anyway). All of which is irrelevant to the politics, which are singularly lacking on these pages and pages of discussion (if it can be so dignified with the term)...

Its open to you to raise the level of political discussion by actually addressing the political character of the various European groups who have affiliated to Libertas, for example.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tcWK02yLOdM&eurl=

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ojk-L6H_c5U&eurl=

Ganley in Spain this month.

This blog is more interesting:

http://www.markobucik.eu/elections-the-european-way/

It remarks on the failure of the Socialist group in the EU to stand a candidate for the Presidency against Barroso (miserable performance). A commentator queries if Ganley intends to stand as the only alternative to Barroso.
http://who-is-your-candidate.eu/index.php?lang=en

i wonder how much the Libertas wage bill is and who is paying it?

There were about 15 interns in the video at 700 per month = 10,500 per month X 6 until june = 63,000

robin Matthews pay scale in the British Army as a Lt. Cononel was between £63 and £74 K ; I asume he would expoect higher in the private sector as he would not have housing and free grub etc. = ? 120,000 eurp miun perhaps

Kevin O'Connell a former super cop and head of europolice salary ? smae or more?

how many more are theree Anita kelly, david Cochrane, The damiler guy,
is Bonde on a wage?
how many more?
then there is ganley hopping around Europe who pays and how much does it cost?
Does Simons put her cabs to RTE and Newstalk on expences?
This already could be a huge budget and that is the tip of the iceberg?
any thoughts?

Is this activity being undertaken by the Libertas Institute, the Foundation or the Party?
It certainly isn't coming cheap.

In due course all will make their Company returns.

Government seems to be changing the rules of Referedum to reduce the amounts that can be donated privately, and the amounts that any individual can contribute. This is a good thing, so far as it goes. All Parties will have to abide by the same regulations.

No matter what the rules, the funding of political parties is inevitably easier for parties that act in the interests of the wealthy and powerful. There are plenty of ways of evading the rules and the established parties know them well.

If other parties want to compete, they have to get out there and raise the cash from real live supporters.

They'd be better reducing the amount of money you can spend which is donated privately. Libertas will already have a kitty of millions so any laws about future donations won't exactly matter.

johnfás wrote:

They'd be better reducing the amount of money you can spend which is donated privately. Libertas will already have a kitty of millions so any laws about future donations won't exactly matter.

Are there not also rules about how much can be spent on a campaign?

I know that this is evaded by starting early, before a campaign is formally started - Libertas has already started getting its profile, for example. Fianna Fail is expert at it too.

At the end of the day, rich parties backed by rich people have a financial advantage. It is up to left wing parties to get small contributions from a lot of people, and to innovate - I also agree with Trade Union contributions.

people Korps is reporting from france this weekend on 2 former presidential candidates running for Libertas. de Villiers and Frédéric Nihous leader of Chasse Pêche Nature et Tradition (CPNT) the Hunting , Fishing, Nature and Tradition party . between them they scooped a whopping3.39% of the votes in the first round in 2007. however peoplekorps says that the far right fringe that supports these people will return to Le pens Front nationale rather that vote for a party headed by ganley.
here

the man himself Frédéric Nihous, Does he not looks right a right thug or is that just me?

Beauty and its opposite is in the eye of the beholder. Do you know anything about his policies?

cactus flower wrote:

Beauty and its opposite is in the eye of the beholder. Do you know anything about his policies?

he is pro hunting and fishing, anti europe, there is a bit about the EUs undemocratic nature on their site. the party is 20 years old. founded out of the Thatcherite Gaulist
Rassemblement pour la République

right wing rural he looks like a right boyo though

Is Libertas an EU party, or an institute?

snapple drinker wrote:

Is Libertas an EU party, or an institute?

wikipedia have done a good job on this and have created three pages for the various Liberti.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertas_Institute_Limited
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertas_Party_Limited
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo_Adriatic_Investment_Fund_SA

from little acorns people I note the clammer when this poster first brought up AAIF now it seems Wikipedia has determined that it actually went bankrupt. it seems that Ganley >Internationals company collected more vouchers than they were allowed by law

Quote :

Following a lengthy period of negotiation and accusation between the AAIF and the Albanian
government, the result is that the AAIF has not been able to participate, or has been prevented by the government from participating, in the mass privatisation process. Now the fund is in bankruptcy.

Would you have a date for that article FA ? or for the bankruptcy? BTW, your last link to peoplekorps site seems a bit liable to freezing.

published 2001 http://www.uni-bamberg.de/fileadmin/uni/fakultaeten/sowi_lehrstuehle/vwl_finanzwissenschaft/Forschung/Public_Economics_Series/inh_pes1.pdf

i checked the link sems ok

snapple drinker wrote:

Is Libertas an EU party, or an institute?

There was a body called the Libertas Institute, with no visible activity as a research institute, that was the Libertas of the No campaign.

Ganley founded several Libertas companies this year - The Libertas Institute, the Libertas Foundation and the Libertas Party - each a limited company.
There are also "branch" companies in some other EU countries and Libertas has attempted to register itself as an EU party. Their first attempt was unsuccessful as two of the signatories denied or withdrew their consent.

boyo will be running against Marine LE PEN the daughter. God almighty those crod will make a football out of Ganley if they are hunting votes.

The growth of the far right has been a long and steady phenomenon over the last twenty years. They were a microscopic and despised remnant in the 1950s, 60s and early 70s. Memories of facism were still fresh in Europe and it was hard to lie about its character. The Trade Union movement and democratic socialism was relatively much stronger and there were workers states of a sort in the USSR.

The ground was prepared for the growth of the far right by Thatcherite/Reaganite economic policies that went along with the protracted decay of the west as the industrial centre of the world.

The danger of the far right will not be made to go away just from pointing out who and what they are (although I think it is important to do that). There is no sign that the existing main stream political parties are able to counteract the growth of the right any more than they are able to deal with the economic crisis.

cactus flower wrote:

The growth of the far right has been a long and steady phenomenon over the last twenty years. They were a microscopic and despised remnant in the 1950s, 60s and early 70s. Memories of facism were still fresh in Europe and it was hard to lie about its character. The Trade Union movement and democratic socialism was relatively much stronger and there were workers states of a sort in the USSR.

The ground was prepared for the growth of the far right by Thatcherite/Reaganite economic policies that went along with the protracted decay of the west as the industrial centre of the world.

The danger of the far right will not be made to go away just from pointing out who and what they are (although I think it is important to do that). There is no sign that the existing main stream political parties are able to counteract the growth of the right any more than they are able to deal with the economic crisis.

Libertas are not a far-right organisation. Can you point one one actual confirmed and verified Libertas candidate? Can you point out which one of them is far-right? Can you point out any actual confirmed and verified Libertas policy which would be considered by any objective person to be far-right?

cookiemonster wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

The growth of the far right has been a long and steady phenomenon over the last twenty years. They were a microscopic and despised remnant in the 1950s, 60s and early 70s. Memories of facism were still fresh in Europe and it was hard to lie about its character. The Trade Union movement and democratic socialism was relatively much stronger and there were workers states of a sort in the USSR.

The ground was prepared for the growth of the far right by Thatcherite/Reaganite economic policies that went along with the protracted decay of the west as the industrial centre of the world.

The danger of the far right will not be made to go away just from pointing out who and what they are (although I think it is important to do that). There is no sign that the existing main stream political parties are able to counteract the growth of the right any more than they are able to deal with the economic crisis.

Libertas are not a far-right organisation. Can you point one one actual confirmed and verified Libertas candidate? Can you point out which one of them is far-right? Can you point out any actual confirmed and verified Libertas policy which would be considered by any objective person to be far-right?

Speaking for yourself, Cookiemonster, how would you define the far right ?

The likes of The british and French National Front, BNP, SA's Afrikaner Resistance Movement, Israel's Yisrael Beiteinu and Bulgaria's National Union Attack are examples of Far-right parties in that they are extreme in their promotion of the positions most common to political parties on the right of the political divide.

I don't accept that Libertas'politics can't be judged except by their candidates, when they have not yet declared them. Their politics can be judged by all kinds of means, but certainly the formal affiliations that Libertas has made are extremely informative.

Quote :

In order to set up the (Libertas) party what is required is 7 elected members at Euro, national or regional levels. One of these signatories was Igor Grazin an Estonian Liberal. Now he had voted against the Lisbon Treaty, but was a member of the Liberal allied Estonian Reform Party. When the ALDE discovered that one of their own had joined a different European Political Party they went, dare I say ballistic.

The net result is that Grazin has denied any involvement,

The other signatories are
Philippe de Villiers: French MEP and leader of the Eurosceptic party, Movement for France (MPF).
Paul-Marie Coûteaux: Also a MPF MEP.
Georgios Georgiou: A Greek MEP and member of the Popular Orthodox Rally, a party that previously held anti-Semitic views.
David Alton: A non-affiliated member of the UK House of Lords, known for his Catholic and anti-abortion views
Timo Juhani Soini: a member of the Finnish parliament and leader of the anti-EU party, True Finns.The British ‘anti-fascist’ magazine Searchlight terms True Finns ‘unashamedly far right’ with ‘racist elements.’
Hristov Kouminev: A member of the Bulgarian Parliament and nationalist party Attack.
Cyprian Gutkowski: A member of a Polish regional assembly and the League of Polish Families party, noted for its right-wing and anti-homosexual views.

Looking at Mr Ganley's friends... Paint me gobsmacked that David Alton is having anything to do with Attaka, the Bulgarian party that, when I asked what they thought about the gypsies said,

"Well... We don't advocate killing them"

The True Finns are pretty interesting as well
Posted by Gawain Towler at 5:08 PM

http://englandexpects.blogspot.com/2009/02/whoops-ganley-balls-up.html


There are no socialists or centrists on that list.

David Alton is known for "Satanic ritual abuse hunting" with racist overtones. http://www.alancraig.org/christianpeoplesalliance.html

Attack is a party whose members are known to chant about "turning gypsies into soap". They have affiliations with the BNP.

The Polish Party is known for street attacks on homosexuals, and for its antisemitism.

The MFP in France is a far right xenophobic anti-Moslem, anti-Trade Union party.

The True Finns are a right wing anti-immigrant party.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/1539195/Right-wing-activist-becomes-youngest-MEP.html

That's not an exhaustive list of people involved in Libertas, it does not indicate what, if any, role those memtioned may have in the organisation, nor is it a list of candidates and nor does it show any Libertas policy.

This weak "guilty by association" nonsense doesn't wash. You can trot it out all you wish but you may as well be basing your comments on reading tea leaves unless and untill you can point to a list of official and confirmed libertas candidates and official and conformed Libertas policy.