Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod

cookiemonster wrote:

That's not an exhaustive list of people involved in Libertas, it does not indicate what, if any, role those memtioned may have in the organisation, nor is it a list of candidates and nor does it show any Libertas policy.

This weak "guilty by association" nonsense doesn't wash. You can trot it out all you wish but you may as well be basing your comments on reading tea leaves unless and untill you can point to a list of official and confirmed libertas candidates and official and conformed Libertas policy.

The day when we all have to abide by Libertas's rules has not arrived yet, and I sincerely hope that it never will. However the list is a list of members/representatives of the Libertas Party. The clear requirements of the Regulations are that signatories must be representatives of the europarty:

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Regulations
As of 1 November 2008, the regulation governing Europarties is Regulation (EC) No 2004/2003 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 4 November 2003,[8] as later amended[9] under codecision (see above). According to that regulation's European Commission factsheet, for a party to become a Europarty it must meet the following criteria:

it must have legal personality in the Member State in which its seat is located.
it must observe the founding principles of the European Union, namely the principles of liberty, democracy, respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms, and the rule of law.
it must have participated, or intend to participate, in elections to the European Parliament.
it must have in at least one quarter of the Member States, one or both of the following:
either it must have received at least 3% of the votes cast in each of those Member States at the most recent European Parliament elections.
or it must already be represented by Members, whether Members of the European Parliament for those states, or Members of the national Parliaments of those states, or Members of the regional Parliaments of those states, or Members of the regional Assemblies of those states.
it must publish its revenue and expenditure annually.
it must publish a statement of its assets and liabilities annually.
it must provide a list of its donors and their donations exceeding €500.
it must not accept anonymous donations.
it must not accept donations exceeding €12000 per year and per donor.
it must not accept donations from the budgets of political groups of the European Parliament.
it must not accept more than 40% of a national political party's annual budget.
it must not accept donations from any company over which the public authorities may exercise a dominant influence, either by virtue of their ownership of it, or by their financial participation therein.
it must get at least 25% of its budget from sources other than its European Union funding.
it must submit its application by the 15 November before the financial year that it wants funding for.

They were presented by Libertas to be representatives of Libertas the Pan European Party.
http://europa.eu/scadplus/leg/en/lvb/l33315.htm

cookiemonster wrote:

That's not an exhaustive list of people involved in Libertas, it does not indicate what, if any, role those memtioned may have in the organisation, nor is it a list of candidates and nor does it show any Libertas policy.

This weak "guilty by association" nonsense doesn't wash. You can trot it out all you wish but you may as well be basing your comments on reading tea leaves unless and untill you can point to a list of official and confirmed libertas candidates and official and conformed Libertas policy.

are you really sincere or are you (self modded(?
of course your Libertas associations with the above list is indicitive of your party. They are its supporters, used to get money for the party and some are certainly running for Libertas.

they are your sponsers and Euopean founders

cactus flower wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

That's not an exhaustive list of people involved in Libertas, it does not indicate what, if any, role those memtioned may have in the organisation, nor is it a list of candidates and nor does it show any Libertas policy.

This weak "guilty by association" nonsense doesn't wash. You can trot it out all you wish but you may as well be basing your comments on reading tea leaves unless and untill you can point to a list of official and confirmed libertas candidates and official and conformed Libertas policy.

The day when we all have to abide by Libertas's rules has not arrived yet, and I sincerely hope that it never will. However the list is a list of members/representatives of the Libertas Party. The clear requirements of the Regulations are that signatories must be representatives of the europarty:

Quote :

Regulations
As of 1 November 2008, the regulation governing Europarties is Regulation (EC) No 2004/2003 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 4 November 2003,[8] as later amended[9] under codecision (see above). According to that regulation's European Commission factsheet, for a party to become a Europarty it must meet the following criteria:
it must already be represented by Members, whether Members of the European Parliament for those states, or Members of the national Parliaments of those states, or Members of the regional Parliaments of those states, or Members of the regional Assemblies of those states.

They were presented by Libertas to be representatives of Libertas the Pan European Party.
http://europa.eu/scadplus/leg/en/lvb/l33315.htm

They are members (or not)! of the party. They are not candidates or at least have not yet been confirmed to be candidates. You're fighting a battle you've construced yourself.

So be clear, I said:

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That's not an exhaustive list of people involved in Libertas, it does not indicate what, if any, role those memtioned may have in the organisation, nor is it a list of candidates and nor does it show any Libertas policy.

Again, the list you quited is:
1. NOT an exhaustive list of people involved in Libertas
2. It does not indicate what, if any, role those memtioned may have in the organisation. Membership does not indicate anything more than membership.
3. It is not a list on candidates
4. It does not indicate any Libertas policy


And I never said you had to abide by Libertas's rules (infact I never said there were any rules) and I actually said "You can trot it out all you wish..." I'm not imposing any rules on anybody. I am simply saying it's a bit stupid to start saying as though a point of fact, as you lot have done, that Libertas is a far-right organisation when you don't know who their canidates are yet and you don't know what their policies are yet.

It is not a far-right organisation and that will be proven when candidates and policy are announced and it is not a eurocerptic organisation as will be proven when candidates and policy is announced.

Again, you can trot this nonsense out all you want but unless and until you base it on actual lists of candidates from Libertas and on actual policy from libertas it's all but meaningless and will be provem to be total and abolsute nonsense in the months ahead.

no it is nonsense to expect alduts to accept your rationale.
You are in bed with these people (those who have not scappered already)
Why would they join in with Libertas if there was no ideologoical link with themselves and their hard right wing agenda? Are you saying they are all charletans who will run to an offer of free cash and a publicity machine?

cookiemonster wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

That's not an exhaustive list of people involved in Libertas, it does not indicate what, if any, role those memtioned may have in the organisation, nor is it a list of candidates and nor does it show any Libertas policy.

This weak "guilty by association" nonsense doesn't wash. You can trot it out all you wish but you may as well be basing your comments on reading tea leaves unless and untill you can point to a list of official and confirmed libertas candidates and official and conformed Libertas policy.

The day when we all have to abide by Libertas's rules has not arrived yet, and I sincerely hope that it never will. However the list is a list of members/representatives of the Libertas Party. The clear requirements of the Regulations are that signatories must be representatives of the europarty:

Quote :

Regulations
As of 1 November 2008, the regulation governing Europarties is Regulation (EC) No 2004/2003 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 4 November 2003,[8] as later amended[9] under codecision (see above). According to that regulation's European Commission factsheet, for a party to become a Europarty it must meet the following criteria:
it must already be represented by Members, whether Members of the European Parliament for those states, or Members of the national Parliaments of those states, or Members of the regional Parliaments of those states, or Members of the regional Assemblies of those states.

They were presented by Libertas to be representatives of Libertas the Pan European Party.
http://europa.eu/scadplus/leg/en/lvb/l33315.htm

They are members (or not)! of the party. They are not candidates or at least have not yet been confirmed to be candidates. You're fighting a battle you've construced yourself.

Under EU funding rules they must be representatives of the Party. That means they represent you, as a member, Cookiemonster and represent the party as a whole.

So be clear, I said:

Quote :

That's not an exhaustive list of people involved in Libertas, it does not indicate what, if any, role those memtioned may have in the organisation, nor is it a list of candidates and nor does it show any Libertas policy.

Not exhaustive, but representative of Libertas's membership across the EU.
Again, the list you quited is:
1. NOT an exhaustive list of people involved in Libertas You would not need to know about every Labour Party member to know what they stand for.

2. It does not indicate what, if any, role those memtioned may have in the organisation. Membership does not indicate anything more than membership. These people are representatives, They were chosen by Declan Ganley to initiate and confirm Libertas as a Party.

3. It is not a list on candidates No, it is a list of Libertas representatives.

4. It does not indicate any Libertas policy You and Libertas has confirmed that each candidate will have his or her own policies. We know what the policies of these individuals are. In selecting them as the Party's representatives, Declan Ganley/Libertas has accepted their politics. The fact they all share a similar political orientation is conclusive.

And I never said you had to abide by Libertas's rules (infact I never said there were any rules) and I actually said "You can trot it out all you wish..." I'm not imposing any rules on anybody. I am simply saying it's a bit stupid to start saying as though a point of fact, as you lot have done, that Libertas is a far-right organisation when you don't know who their canidates are yet and you don't know what their policies are yet. It is established as a point of fact to my satisfaction. You disagree, but you have not presented any evidence that Libertas is anything other than what it appears to be.

It is not a far-right organisation and that will be proven when candidates and policy are announced and it is not a eurocerptic organisation as will be proven when candidates and policy is announced. If Libertas produces an array of left wing candidates, i will eat my best straw hat.

Again, you can trot this nonsense out all you want but unless and until you base it on actual lists of candidates from Libertas and on actual policy from libertas it's all but meaningless and will be provem to be total and abolsute nonsense in the months ahead.

Saying black is white doesn't make it so.

[b]

[quote="cactus flower"][quote="cookiemonster"]

cactus flower wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

That's not an exhaustive list of people involved in Libertas, it does not indicate what, if any, role those memtioned may have in the organisation, nor is it a list of candidates and nor does it show any Libertas policy.

This weak "guilty by association" nonsense doesn't wash. You can trot it out all you wish but you may as well be basing your comments on reading tea leaves unless and untill you can point to a list of official and confirmed libertas candidates and official and conformed Libertas policy.

The day when we all have to abide by Libertas's rules has not arrived yet, and I sincerely hope that it never will. However the list is a list of members/representatives of the Libertas Party. The clear requirements of the Regulations are that signatories must be representatives of the europarty:

Quote :

Regulations
As of 1 November 2008, the regulation governing Europarties is Regulation (EC) No 2004/2003 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 4 November 2003,[8] as later amended[9] under codecision (see above). According to that regulation's European Commission factsheet, for a party to become a Europarty it must meet the following criteria:
it must already be represented by Members, whether Members of the European Parliament for those states, or Members of the national Parliaments of those states, or Members of the regional Parliaments of those states, or Members of the regional Assemblies of those states.

They were presented by Libertas to be representatives of Libertas the Pan European Party.
http://europa.eu/scadplus/leg/en/lvb/l33315.htm

They are members (or not)! of the party. They are not candidates or at least have not yet been confirmed to be candidates. You're fighting a battle you've construced yourself.

Under EU funding rules they must be representatives of the Party. That means they represent you, as a member, Cookiemonster and represent the party as a whole.

No, under EU rules they must be members of the party. They are members (or at least were...)

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So be clear, I said:

Quote :

That's not an exhaustive list of people involved in Libertas, it does not indicate what, if any, role those memtioned may have in the organisation, nor is it a list of candidates and nor does it show any Libertas policy.

Not exhaustive, but representative of Libertas's membership across the EU.

Do you know every member? Can you point to stated Libertas policy which they represent?

Quote :

Again, the list you quited is:

1. NOT an exhaustive list of people involved in Libertas You would not need to know about every Labour Party member to know what they stand for.

Nor can you base Labour party policy on the beliefs of a few members.

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2. It does not indicate what, if any, role those memtioned may have in the organisation. Membership does not indicate anything more than membership. These people are representatives, They were chosen by Declan Ganley to initiate and confirm Libertas as a Party.

They are people who fitted the criteria necessary and were willing to lend their support Libertas to allow the party to register with the EU.

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3. It is not a list on candidates No, it is a list of Libertas representatives.

It's a list of Libertas members who had the necessary credentials to sign a membership request.

Quote :

4. It does not indicate any Libertas policy You and Libertas has confirmed that each candidate will have his or her own policies. We know what the policies of these individuals are. In selecting them as the Party's representatives, Declan Ganley/Libertas has accepted their politics. The fact they all share a similar political orientation is conclusive.

I'm not a Libertas spokesperson. Ganley has stated that candidates come froma broad base are moderate and that Libertas is not centrist organisation and is not Eurosceptic. Again, we're talking about candidates and I'm sure he knows more about the candidates than you do.

And I never said you had to abide by Libertas's rules (infact I never said there were any rules) and I actually said "You can trot it out all you wish..." I'm not imposing any rules on anybody. I am simply saying it's a bit stupid to start saying as though a point of fact, as you lot have done, that Libertas is a far-right organisation when you don't know who their canidates are yet and you don't know what their policies are yet. It is established as a point of fact to my satisfaction. You disagree, but you have not presented any evidence that Libertas is anything other than what it appears to be.

Quote :

It is not a far-right organisation and that will be proven when candidates and policy are announced and it is not a eurocerptic organisation as will be proven when candidates and policy is announced. If Libertas produces an array of left wing candidates, i will eat my best straw hat.

I look forward to you eating your hat and your words.

Quote :

Again, you can trot this nonsense out all you want but unless and until you base it on actual lists of candidates from Libertas and on actual policy from libertas it's all but meaningless and will be provem to be total and abolsute nonsense in the months ahead.
Saying black is white doesn't make it so.

Until and unless you can provide some reference to Libertas candidates and policy saying black is white doesn't make it so.

You are talking about candidates. I am talking about the political character of Libertas and Mr. Ganley's politics.

He has chosen to have his party represented - the EU Regulations, linked above, say the signatories are representatives of the party - by people from parties that are racist, anti-Trade Union and that indulge in thuggery. Your posts are an attempt at a white wash job and fly in the face of the facts.

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They are people who fitted the criteria necessary and were willing to lend their support Libertas to allow the party to register with the EU.

Is that what Ganley told them? It is clear from the Regulations that the signatories must be representatives of the Europarty.

cactus flower wrote:

You are talking about candidates. I am talking about the political character of Libertas and Mr. Ganley's politics.

In order to have chracter it must have candidates and policy. The details of which you do not know.

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He has chosen to have his party represented - the EU Regulations, linked above, say the signatories are representatives of the party -

No, they say it must be represented by members. Which those people are.

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by people from parties that are racist, anti-Trade Union and that indulge in thuggery. Your posts are an attempt at a white wash job and fly in the face of the facts.

No, my post is an attempt to establish fact. You are making claims about Libertas which don't stack up because you cannot yet reference Libertas candidates or Libertas policy. Once you can do that then what you are saying may be a little more relevant.

Quote :

Quote :

They are people who fitted the criteria necessary and were willing to lend their support Libertas to allow the party to register with the EU.

Is that what Ganley told them? It is clear from the Regulations that the signatories must be representatives of the Europarty.

No, it is clear from the rules that they must be members of the party, which most of them seemed to remember that they were. I'm sure Ganley told they the same thing he's been telling averybody, that Libertas is a pro-Europe party that it is commiteed to promoting more Accountability, Transparency and Democracy in Europe and is against the Lisbon treaty. Maybe one or maybe all of those things struck a chord with those people enough for them to lend their signatures to have the party established at a European level.

Libertas lodged an applicatioin for EU funding under these Regulations

ACT
Regulation (EC) No 2004/2003 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 4 November 2003 on the regulations governing political parties at European level and the rules regarding their funding [See amending acts].


SUMMARY
This Regulation lays down the regulations governing political parties at European level and rules regarding their funding.

Application for funding

A political party at European level may file an application for funding with the European Parliament each year. The Regulation defines "political party" as an association of citizens, which pursues political objectives, and is established and recognised in accordance with the national rules of at least one Member State.

In order to be qualified as a "political party at European level", a party must:

have legal personality in the Member State in which its seat is located;
be represented, in at least one quarter of the Member States, by Members of the European Parliament (or in the national or regional Parliaments or regional assemblies),or it must have received, also in at least one quarter of the Member States , at least 3% of the votes cast in each of those Member States at the most recent European Parliament elections;
observe, in particular in its programme and in its activities, the founding principles of the European Union, namely the principles of liberty, democracy, respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms, and the rule of law; have participated in elections to the European Parliament, or have expressed the intention to do so.
The European Parliament ensures that the political parties at European level continue to meet these criteria. If any of these conditions is no longer satisfied, the relevant party forfeits its status of "political party at European level" and consequently is excluded from funding under this Regulation.

Political foundations affiliated to a political party at European level may also submit an application for funding via this party. The Regulation defines "political foundation at European level" as an entity (or network of entities) which has legal personality in an EU Member State and is affiliated with a political party at European level. Political foundations at European level have the task of observing, analysing, communicating, and contributing to the debate, in particular with a view to European elections. The financial rules applicable to foundations are identical to those regarding parties.

The application for funding must be accompanied by documents proving that it is a political party at European level. It must also give evidence of the party's political programme and a statute defining in particular the bodies responsible for political and financial management as well as the natural persons holding, in each of the Member States concerned, the power of legal representation. Any subsequent amendment to the above-mentioned documents, must be notified to the European Parliament within two months. In the absence of such notification, funding is suspended. The European Parliament takes a decision within three months following receipt of an application for funding.

Provenance of funding, distribution and obligations

Political parties at European level are funded from the general budget of the European Union.

.

The signatories are Libertas's legal representatives. Libertas has stated on its website that individual candidates will set their own policies. By some amazing and unaccountable cooincidence, all of Libertas's legal representatives are from the far right.

cactus flower wrote:

The signatories are Libertas's legal representatives. Libertas has stated on its website that individual candidates will set their own policies. By some amazing and unaccountable cooincidence, all of Libertas's legal representatives are from the far right.

There you go again with the far right rubbish.

I don't know how many times I have to say this, Libertas is NOT nor will be be a far-right organisation. It's candidates will come from a broad political spectrum. It is pro-EU, for greater democracy, accountability and transparency and is against the Lisbon Treaty.

You can harp on all you like but Libertas is about more than a few names. Later this month and in the run up to the European Elections you will see that this is the case. You cannot yet point to any Libertas EP election candidate or any Libertas policy and call it right wing. When you can reference Libertas candidates and policy then you may have a point. There is no point basing your entire argument of a few members, it's not the full picture and as such it's not accurate.

Would leave Libertas if the candidates were right wing ?

cactus flower wrote:

Would leave Libertas if the candidates were right wing ?

Excuse me?

cactus flower wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

Would you leave Libertas if the candidates were right wing ?

What has that got to do with anything?

"Philippe de Villiers: French MEP and leader of the Eurosceptic party, Movement for France (MPF) - anti-moslem, anti trade union party.
Paul-Marie Coûteaux: Also a MPF MEP.
Georgios Georgiou: A Greek MEP and member of the Popular Orthodox Rally, a party that previously held anti-Semitic views.
David Alton: A non-affiliated member of the UK House of Lords, known for his Catholic and anti-abortion views
Timo Juhani Soini: a member of the Finnish parliament and leader of the anti-EU party, True Finns.The British ‘anti-fascist’ magazine Searchlight terms True Finns ‘unashamedly far right’ with ‘racist elements.’
Hristov Kouminev: A member of the Bulgarian Parliament and nationalist party Attack.
Cyprian Gutkowski: A member of a Polish regional assembly and the League of Polish Families party, noted for its right-wing and anti-homosexual views."

Are you happy to be represented by these people ?

cactus flower wrote:

"Philippe de Villiers: French MEP and leader of the Eurosceptic party, Movement for France (MPF) - anti-moslem, anti trade union party.
Paul-Marie Coûteaux: Also a MPF MEP.
Georgios Georgiou: A Greek MEP and member of the Popular Orthodox Rally, a party that previously held anti-Semitic views.
David Alton: A non-affiliated member of the UK House of Lords, known for his Catholic and anti-abortion views
Timo Juhani Soini: a member of the Finnish parliament and leader of the anti-EU party, True Finns.The British ‘anti-fascist’ magazine Searchlight terms True Finns ‘unashamedly far right’ with ‘racist elements.’
Hristov Kouminev: A member of the Bulgarian Parliament and nationalist party Attack.
Cyprian Gutkowski: A member of a Polish regional assembly and the League of Polish Families party, noted for its right-wing and anti-homosexual views."

Are you happy to be represented by these people ?

I'm happy with Libertas's position of being a Pro-EU political party that is for more accountability, transparency and democracy in Europe and is against the Lisbon Treaty.

cookiemonster wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

You are talking about candidates. I am talking about the political character of Libertas and Mr. Ganley's politics.

In order to have chracter it must have candidates and policy. The details of which you do not know.

Good point they Libertas has no character. Is that just because its a blank template?

cookiemonster wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

"Philippe de Villiers:
French MEP and leader of the Eurosceptic party, Movement for France
(MPF) - anti-moslem, anti trade union party.
Paul-Marie Coûteaux: Also a MPF MEP.
Georgios Georgiou: A Greek MEP and member of the Popular Orthodox Rally, a party that previously held anti-Semitic views.
David Alton: A non-affiliated member of the UK House of Lords, known for his Catholic and anti-abortion views
Timo
Juhani Soini: a member of the Finnish parliament and leader of the
anti-EU party, True Finns.The British ‘anti-fascist’ magazine
Searchlight terms True Finns ‘unashamedly far right’ with ‘racist
elements.’
Hristov Kouminev: A member of the Bulgarian Parliament and nationalist party Attack.
Cyprian
Gutkowski: A member of a Polish regional assembly and the League of
Polish Families party, noted for its right-wing and anti-homosexual
views."

Are you happy to be represented by these people ?

I'm
happy with Libertas's position of being a Pro-EU political party that
is for more accountability, transparency and democracy in Europe and is
against the Lisbon Treaty.

and aligned and supporter by and with members who are politically far right and extreme right as opposed to your own hard right stance .

thank you for clearing that up Mein Cookie.

cactus I think it is time your gestated thoughts on this were placed in blogsphere.

Have you got a real addition to the discussion or just your usual biased and slanted potshots? Even an ounce of objectivity would do.

Ok One ounce , what do you take us for..you are attempting to explain away your far right supporters saying they don't reflect the views of Libertas. Are we to be that Ganley has persuaded all these people to abandon their politics. if not how do you explain their support,
it is you who is going around in circles but in fact here you have run out of room explain yourself and what the last posts you have made are hiding?

Frightened Albanian wrote:

Ok One ounce , what do you take us for..you are attempting to explain away your far right supporters saying they don't reflect the views of Libertas. Are we to be that Ganley has persuaded all these people to abandon their politics. if not how do you explain their support,
it is you who is going around in circles but in fact here you have run out of room explain yourself and what the last posts you have made are hiding?

Your abilities to comprehend statements has let you down once again. I am saying that Libertas is not a far-right or Eurosceptic organisation. I as saying the names you have fixated on are not Libertas candidates nor is it an exhaustive list of those involved with libertas. To attempt to state as fact that Libertas is a far-right organisation based on very little evidence and without any reference to confirmed official policy or candidates is a pointless exercise. I'm saying that you are trying to push a half baked opinion without being in posession of the relevant facts to back your self up. When you can reference Libertas candidates and policy you may have a point, until then you're just speculating and given you and "peoplekorps" past behaviour i don't believe your speculation can be trusted at all.

You're talking twaddle.
peoplekorps seems to have his finger on the pulse of your groupen, you never commented on the Peche boy from Picardy

Frightened Albanian wrote:

You talking traddle.

I'm not. I'm saying you an cactusflower are basing your opinions on too little information and that you are both intentionally putting too much weight on a list of names as being the sole purpose and idea of Libertas while being unable to actually reference any confirmed candidate or policy all because of your rather pathetic inpatient attemp to damage Libertas.

Most people aren't idiots and won't fall for such nonsense. Once they see candidates and policy and are fully in possession then they will make up their own minds. Not half arsed scaremongering from people burdened by their own agendas.

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peoplekorps seems to have his finger on the pulse of your groupen

"Peoplekorps" has his finger somwhere all right but it's from from a pulse

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you never commented on the Peche boy from Picardy

No, I didn't, well observed. Shame I don't know nor care what you are on about.

This guy

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Frédéric Nihous leader of Chasse Pêche Nature et Tradition (CPNT) the
Hunting , Fishing, Nature and Tradition party has not denied the
rumours. His party are expected to announce an election pact with
Phillipe de Villiers Mouvement pour la France (MPF) on 11 March. The
MPF have indictated that they will run 2 candidates for Libertas. The
date 11 March is also the date announced for the launch of the new
website for Libertas France.

http://peoplekorps.blogspot.com/2009/03/have-libertas-secured-339-of-french.html

Robin Matthews Libertas' Chef de Cabinet fourth from left