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 Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod

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Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod - Page 26 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod - Page 26 EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 8:18 am


There is an interesting speech and interview on the Libertas.eu website: Ganley on a reent trip to Warsaw.

He makes the familiar populist appeal to "unnaccountable elites" and an appeal to the fear of the small business owners in the "oncoming hurricane" of the economic crisis. Anti-tax, anti-trade union, anti-regulation.

"We've got to find a way to offer families and small businesses some way of dealing with these huge debts that they will never be able to repay. Longer unresolved the worse it will get... The politicians are responsible for the crisis"

"When any policy targets and undermines small and medium businesses that is smothering any chance of growth that is goint to take us out of this. Raising taxes will never succeed in getting us out of recession in Europe."

"The man who thinks he can get out of a recession by taxes is a man who thinks he can stand in a bucket and lift it by its handle" - Winston Churchill.

25th March party congress in Rome. Unveiling candidates on that date or sooner.

In favour of a referendum, including one on the Euro. The question of the Euro - Polish people have to weigh up pros and cons.

"Booklet setting out my views (not very different from Libertas's views) will be published - other people have written this book with respect to these views."

"Funding for Libertas in Poland - cannot bring in any financing from outside of Poland at all. In about 10 days Libertas will be launching a fund raising site to work on that component of that strategy - we have hired the leading expert in the world to work on that strategy. This is not unique to Poland - people who made these laws call themselve pro European. Log on and make a small donation - it will all help.

Our objective to encourage a high turnout in European elections.

People in Brussels are waiting to identify one candidate that would fit your description. We're not eurosceptic, we are pro European that what makes them afraid.

Libertas won't be an umbrella organisation."

"Many of our candidates will not previously have been politicians as such, some will - people from academia, business, the law, the media, farmers. Anybody can join if they share our views."

"There's no such thing as small national economies. None of us would make a living if that were the case. Polish farmers and manufactureres need to be able to sell their goods in the EU. We need to stimulate growth by encouraging people to take more risk. This is going to require our banking sector not to look like a casino."

http://www.polityczni.pl/libertas_atakuje_bruksele,audio,51,3395.html
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Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod - Page 26 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod - Page 26 EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 1:15 pm

" Anybody can join if they share our views."

Yep
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod - Page 26 EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 2:18 pm

Frightened Albanian wrote:
" Anybody can join if they share our views."

Yep

Did they turn you down, Frightened Albanian ?
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Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod - Page 26 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod - Page 26 EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 2:58 pm

Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod - Page 26 EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 8:57 pm

cactus flower wrote:
Frightened Albanian wrote:
" Anybody can join if they share our views."

Yep

Did they turn you down, Frightened Albanian ?

Why wouldn't they?
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod - Page 26 EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 9:01 pm

I'm all for democracy, transparency and accountability in Europe. I should be a shoe-in Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod - Page 26 EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 9:08 pm

cactus flower wrote:
I'm all for democracy, transparency and accountability in Europe. I should be a shoe-in Smile

Apart from your fear of Libertas's far-right orientation which you're convinced exists, eah?
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod - Page 26 EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 9:14 pm

cookiemonster wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
I'm all for democracy, transparency and accountability in Europe. I should be a shoe-in Smile

Apart from your fear of Libertas's far-right orientation which you're convinced exists, eah?

Since you're convinced it does not exist it couldn't possibly be a barrier Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod - Page 26 EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 9:16 pm

cactus flower wrote:
cookiemonster wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
I'm all for democracy, transparency and accountability in Europe. I should be a shoe-in Smile

Apart from your fear of Libertas's far-right orientation which you're convinced exists, eah?

Since you're convinced it does not exist it couldn't possibly be a barrier Smile

I don't need to be convinced, I know it doesn't exist.
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod - Page 26 EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 9:21 pm

cookiemonster wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
cookiemonster wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
I'm all for democracy, transparency and accountability in Europe. I should be a shoe-in Smile

Apart from your fear of Libertas's far-right orientation which you're convinced exists, eah?

Since you're convinced it does not exist it couldn't possibly be a barrier Smile

I don't need to be convinced, I know it doesn't exist.

Would you care if it did ?
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod - Page 26 EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 9:28 pm

cactus flower wrote:
cookiemonster wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
cookiemonster wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
I'm all for democracy, transparency and accountability in Europe. I should be a shoe-in Smile

Apart from your fear of Libertas's far-right orientation which you're convinced exists, eah?

Since you're convinced it does not exist it couldn't possibly be a barrier Smile

I don't need to be convinced, I know it doesn't exist.

Would you care if it did ?

Not as long as you don't start staing it as though it was fact but were unable to back it up.
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Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod - Page 26 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod - Page 26 EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 9:58 pm

You say you are right wing politically cookiemonster. You have joined a right wing party.
Where is the surprise in that?
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod - Page 26 EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 10:00 pm

cactus flower wrote:
You say you are right wing politically cookiemonster. You have joined a right wing party.
Where is the surprise in that?

Point out to me, please, a piece of right wing policy published by Libertas.
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Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod - Page 26 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod - Page 26 EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 10:10 pm

Libertas don't seem to have published any policies... that's half the problem. I've been asking you for some for a fair old while at this stage and you said I would get them in March. Do we have a date in March yet? Will there be fireworks?
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Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod - Page 26 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod - Page 26 EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 10:13 pm

I read March 25 somewhere.
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod - Page 26 EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 10:15 pm

cookiemonster wrote:
Can you point one one actual confirmed and verified Libertas candidate? Can you point out which one of them is far-right? Can you point out any actual confirmed and verified Libertas policy which would be considered by any objective person to be far-right?

Cookie, this is actually the problem; we can't point to any confirmed candidates of any political hue nor any policies. We are agog and looking forward to having our curiosity satisfied. Any dates confirmed as yet? Is snapple drinker right on March 25th?
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod - Page 26 EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 10:19 pm

Its confirmed on the Libertas.eu website in this video - there's a summary at the top of this page.

http://www.polityczni.pl/libertas_atakuje_bruksele,audio,51,3395.html

I will be surprised if the published material doesn't continue in the established uninformative and demagogic style.
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod - Page 26 EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 10:27 pm

johnfás wrote:
Libertas don't seem to have published any policies... that's half the problem. I've been asking you for some for a fair old while at this stage and you said I would get them in March. Do we have a date in March yet? Will there be fireworks?

Yes, I've said before following the first party conference in March.
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod - Page 26 EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 10:29 pm

And when is this party conference, where is it being held, who can attend etc?
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod - Page 26 EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 10:33 pm

johnfás wrote:
And when is this party conference, where is it being held, who can attend etc?

March 25th, Rome, I don't know.
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod - Page 26 EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 10:35 pm

It's just that there seems to be no way of joining Libertas yet so it would be interesting to hear who is entitled to attend the conference.
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PostSubject: Ganley and the True Finns   Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod - Page 26 EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 11:00 pm

Ralf Grahn, a Finnish lawyer specialising in EU law posted this on his blog three weeks ago:

Is Libertas a European level party?
"According to media reports the pan-European Libertas party has filed an application for EU funding. We have been told that the party consists of a few politicians from member states of the European Union. Leaving their pan-European credentials aside for the moment, the sketchy reports offer little on if Libertas really fulfils the criteria for funding as a political party at European level.

Nothing was found on the web pages of Libertas this evening.

Let us look at the criteria, as set out in the Regulation (EC) No 2004/2003 of the European Parliament and of the Council of 4 November 2003 on the regulations governing political parties at European level and the rules regarding their funding.

The consolidated version Regulation 2004/2003 (of 27 December 2007) is available here:

http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/LexUriServ.do?uri=CONSLEG:2003R2004:20071227:EN:PDF

The following criteria are mentioned:
Article 2
Definitions

For the purposes of this Regulation:

1. ‘political party’ means an association of citizens:

— which pursues political objectives, and

— which is either recognised by, or established in accordance with, the legal order of at least one Member State;

2. ‘alliance of political parties’ means structured cooperation between at least two political parties;

3. ‘political party at European level’ means a political party or an alliance of political parties which satisfies the conditions referred to in Article 3;
-----
Article 3
Conditions

1. A political party at European level shall satisfy the following conditions:

(a) it must have legal personality in the Member State in which its seat is located;

(b) it must be represented, in at least one quarter of Member States, by Members of the European Parliament or in the national Parliaments or regional Parliaments or in the regional assemblies, or it must have received, in at least one quarter of the Member States, at least three per cent of the votes cast in each of those Member States at the most recent European Parliament elections;

(c) it must observe, in particular in its programme and in its activities, the principles on which the European Union is founded, namely the principles of liberty, democracy, respect for human rights and fundamental freedoms, and the rule of law;

(d) it must have participated in elections to the European Parliament, or have expressed the intention to do so.
-----
***
Criteria

In short: Representation in a quarter of the EU member states (7) is enough and a coalition of political parties will do.

***
True Finns

One of the party members or representatives mentioned publicly is Timo Soini, Chairman of the True Finns (Perussuomalaiset), a political party with five members of Parliament. Interestingly enough, a few moment ago the web pages of the True Finns and the parliamentary group failed to mention that the party has become the national Libertas or even joined a coalition with Libertas. Not a word about an alliance on Chairman Soini’s blog.

In other words, if the True Finns have made a decision about Libertas, they have kept it secret.
***
This brings us back to Regulation 2004/2003 and the funding criteria. Can a party be said to be represented by elected politicians in a member state, if the national or coalition party’s allegiance is unknown where it operates?

A second possibility might be that Timo Soini MP is a member of Libertas EU directly (he later confirmed his personal membership - cf). But shouldn’t he have told his less than integrationist supporters in Finland if he has joined a pan-European political party?

Possibly, everything will be sorted out, but Libertas’ application seems to deserve thorough vetting before approval. I hope that all actors step up their communication efforts until the matter is crystal clear."

Ralf Grahn

http://grahnlaw.blogspot.com/2009/02/soini-owns-up-to-joining-libertas.html

"About half a year later, Libertas has been launched as a political party with five (?) members, on a message so general and contradictory that it seems to offer everyone something, without being committed to anything.

So the little we have seen of a programme has no real meaning, and Ganley's statements about a strong and democratic Europe even less.

The only real thing we can evaluate is the corps Libertas has recruited.

As far as I can see, these founding members represent varying shades of anti-European populism and nationalism, with a tinge of xenophobia and (religious) extremism thrown in.

By the way, I still have some trouble with the words that a political party at European level, especially a professedly pan-European one, is "represented" in a member state if (the representative) he or she represents a national party without any affiliation to or coalition with the Europarty."

There are serious questions over the content of Libertas's application to received funding as an EU party. The application was withdrawn after two "signatory" representatives objected to having being included in the application as Libertas representatives. Grahn questions the legality of the inclusion of the Finnish signatory. Libertas is putting itself up as guardian of ethics in the EU, and the Libertas website is slagging off the EU for misspending money. Libertas's own dubious funding application would not inspire me with confidence in its credentials for cleaning anything up.

Grahn also shares the view that in the absence of a published policy programme from Libertas, the personnel recruited by Ganley reveals most about his politics.
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod - Page 26 EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 11:14 pm

Does he have a list of Libertas candidates? Does he have a copy of Libertas's policies? Unless he does, and it seems from the quotes above that he doesn't, then he too has based his opinions on less than full information. As a legal expert he should know better.
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod - Page 26 EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 11:16 pm

A politician should know better than thinking he'll get any sort of positive response from the media or commentators when he launches a party without a membership, a policy or a candidate.
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PostSubject: Re: Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod   Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod - Page 26 EmptyTue Mar 03, 2009 11:19 pm

johnfás wrote:
A politician should know better than thinking he'll get any sort of positive response from the media or commentators when he launches a party without a membership, a policy or a candidate.

There is plenty of positive responses. And as I have said, candidates and policy will be announced this month. Before the elections too, which is nice.
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