The Israeli Air Attack - Hundreds Dead - Israeli Ground attack on Gaza is now under way

It is all a staged drama and part of a bigger gameplan. It is for the consumption and terrorfication of fools. The death of untold discardable people an inconsequential by product.

I listen to a guy called Barry Chamish who has a good on events but I havn't heard for a while now before this started. He has said that an agreement was reached whereby Hamas could fire as many rockets as they liked but they were not to kill many. This sounds crazy until you check the facts. Hamas fires thousands and thousands of rockets over 6 years and how many are killed, 5 or 6. They would kill more throwing frisbees.

Now with the money system collapsing we suddenly have a war. The Indians were smart enough thus far to see what is afoot so it was on to plan B.

It does not matter a bollox about Gaza, this is to get Iran into the war. The gulf states are the real target as they are about to commit the cardinal sin of a gold backed currency.

http://caps.fool.com/blogs/viewpost.aspx?bpid=125230&t=01000785550515854591

youngdan wrote:

It is all a staged drama and part of a bigger gameplan. It is for the consumption and terrorfication of fools. The death of untold discardable people an inconsequential by product.

I listen to a guy called Barry Chamish who has a good on events but I havn't heard for a while now before this started. He has said that an agreement was reached whereby Hamas could fire as many rockets as they liked but they were not to kill many. This sounds crazy until you check the facts. Hamas fires thousands and thousands of rockets over 6 years and how many are killed, 5 or 6. They would kill more throwing frisbees.

Now with the money system collapsing we suddenly have a war. The Indians were smart enough thus far to see what is afoot so it was on to plan B.

It does not matter a bollox about Gaza, this is to get Iran into the war. The gulf states are the real target as they are about to commit the cardinal sin of a gold backed currency.

http://caps.fool.com/blogs/viewpost.aspx?bpid=125230&t=01000785550515854591

Hamas is a local militia and those rockets are mainly home made things.

This could well be a massive US sponsored provocation with a view to fomenting general unrest and war.

https://machinenation.forumakers.com/world-politics-and-events-f27/israel-cyber-war-t1748-25.htm#57062

Tank fire has killed a child - first casualty of the ground attack.

The EU Presidency says this is "defensive not offensive" action.

Sky News is seeing the EU Presidency statement as "provocative" and "letting the cat out of the bag" on EU attitudes. "The wider game being played out relates to the influence of the US, Iran and others in the region."

The reality is simple. Hamas leaders have been under pressure for months from militants within it, who saw the ceasefire as treason. To cover themselves the Hamas leadership called off the ceasefire, but fucked up on two points:

They didn't factor in the impact of the forthcoming general election, and the fact that the Israeli government could not let the ceasefire end and rockets begin without killing off their own electoral chances. So they had to respond.

Hamas forgot the basic rule of international relations - never ever call off a ceasefire in the Christmas period or in August. Your opponents can be reined in from attacking at other times of the year, but at those times foreign ministers are on holidays, the UN is on holidays, and all the key figures in international diplomacy are away. So if your opponents respond they will get a week to 10 days freedom to do so because the normal restraint mechanisms are not around. The UN, Troika and others can react quickly at other times but in late December-early January, and in August, all the key people are away and cannot swing into action instantly. Israel knows that and is using that to their advantage. The key advisors on the middle east for example in Dublin and London are all away and are rushing back to advise their ministers, who are themselves rushing back themselves from breaks. (They never seem to learn that most wars start in January or July/August precisely because at that time the key referees and international figures are on holiday (everything from WWI and WWII to most recently in South Ossetia).

The Gaza attack has nothing to do with a Gulf currency. And it has nothing to do with the US trying to engineer an attack on Iran. People who think that know nothing about what happens in the weeks before the changeover in presidents in the US. Over 80% of Bush's key backroom people have jumped ship - that is what happens. In the interregnum they start hunting for new jobs. By the last two weeks in a presidency the joke is that the only people left around the White House are the President and the cleaners. Everyone else has gone, or is going. In January of a changeover period a president has a skeleton staff and barely enough authority to order a cup of coffee. Bush has been trying to engineer a war with Iran for 3 years. Right now, even if he wanted to, he couldn't organise one. Almost all his foreign policy staff are going or gone. People who will remain with Obama are now working for him. Clinton described on day a couple of weeks before Bush took office going for a walk around the West Wing and finding it almost deserted. (He joked that he could not even find enough people around to play a round of golf with.) So anyone who thinks Bush has the power to start a war right now is dreaming. The Bush administration, like all outgoing administrations, is effectively over, with all the key personnel below cabinet level gone, or if not gone, too busy getting CVs out and organising their papers to do anything much.

Conspiracy theorists like Young Dan seem to live in some fantasy world. In reality wars start because of human beings, more often than not because human beings fuck up, trigger off something and then find themselves thinking "oh bugger. What have I done?" And if the Israeli attack goes wrong, you will find the Israeli PM thinking those words. Political power in reality is like the Wizzard of Oz, impressive the further away you are from it, but the closer you get the more you find it is some ordinary guy trying desperately to give the impression he has a clue what he is doing. (At one stage a CNN reporter said how President Bush and his top aides were having a meeting to plan strategy at the start of the Iraq war. It drew a laugh, according to one of the aides in an article later. Bush and his aides were actually gathered in the room together to watch CNN to find out what was going on. And you can pretty sure that Sarkozy, Cowen, Brown and others aren't having high level secret discussions about the offensive right now. They are sitting watching CNN, BBC News 24, or Sky the same as the rest of us. That is the real world, a million miles from the conspiracy theory fantasy so beloved of people who post rubbish on you tube.

There's a good bit of truth in that Papal Knight but also a lot of nonsense. Everyone commenting on this acknowledges that Israel has planned this attack for months and not in the last fortnight. It is simply not feasible militarily to spring something like this on the spur of the moment, or without having in this case made a prior agreement with Eygypt. The attack has the explicit and repeated backing of the US - Bush has made a radio broadcast yesterday with elaborate proposals for a monitoring force that didn't spring out of his Christmas party hat. The broadcast effectively gave the order to proceed with the ground attack. The idea that Hamas started this is laughable. Barrack Obama is making at least daily statements on the economy and is working full time. Everyone knows what "No comment" means in that context.

Blair, the "Middle East Envoy" has made one statement in the 8 days. Still on holiday, I presume.

What papal says is a load of overripe banannas. He must think that the pentagon, state department and all state functions just close up shop and go looking for other jobs.

Nobody tell him that even Gates is staying in his job.

He really has the most simple minded idea about how the US Government works that could ever be imagined.

He thinks the president watchs CNN to find out what is happening. Hello McPapal Knight anybody home

The Israels broke the truce, no-one was killed until they invaded and killed a number of Palestinian militants in early November. Not that I have any time for the Islamofascists of Hamas.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians

The Czech PM, Topolanek, speaking as President of the EU, has described Israel's actions as 'more defensive than offensive'. France has condemned their actions unequivocally.

http://www.africasia.com/services/news/newsitem.php?area=mideast&item=090103204619.k10mpyyi.php

Anyone still think CFSP is a good idea?

toxic avenger wrote:

The Israels broke the truce, no-one was killed until they invaded and killed a number of Palestinian militants in early November. Not that I have any time for the Islamofascists of Hamas.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians

The Czech PM, Topolanek, speaking as President of the EU, has described Israel's actions as 'more defensive than offensive'. France has condemned their actions unequivocally.

http://www.africasia.com/services/news/newsitem.php?area=mideast&item=090103204619.k10mpyyi.php

Anyone still think CFSP is a good idea?

My guess is that there would be a perpetual push and pull between pro US and pro French expansionary agendas.

The Whitehouse has just said that US officials have been in regular contact with officials in the region as well as in Europe.

cactus flower wrote:

There's a good bit of truth in that Papal Knight but also a lot of nonsense. Everyone commenting on this acknowledges that Israel has planned this attack for months and not in the last fortnight. It is simply not feasible militarily to spring something like this on the spur of the moment, or without having in this case made a prior agreement with Eygypt. The attack has the explicit and repeated backing of the US - Bush has made a radio broadcast yesterday with elaborate proposals for a monitoring force that didn't spring out of his Christmas party hat. The broadcast effectively gave the order to proceed with the ground attack. The idea that Hamas started this is laughable. Barrack Obama is making at least daily statements on the economy and is working full time. Everyone knows what "No comment" means in that context.

Blair, the "Middle East Envoy" has made one statement in the 8 days. Still on holiday, I presume.

You missed my point (maybe I didn't explain it well with my cold!) Yes Israel would be planning things for months. States always make plans (they are often called the 'WIs', the What Ifs, and update them. But the trigger was Hamas's decision. In effect each plan will have trip wires. Hamas tripped one, and tripped it at the stupidest time for itself. If it happened then Israel would have been on less stable ground internationally. The US similarly will have reaction plans ready. So will the EU, and everyone else. Bush like everyone else will have 'what if?' scenarios worked out and will have been consulted in advance. The point about Bush though is that while he will have shelves of plans in place, by the last two weeks of an administration the administration in effect ceases to exist. Carter found that an office that had 94 people working in it in November had 19 in January, a lot of minor figures, a few at the top, but with the crucial middle ranking figures all gone.

Re Obama - you misunderstand a crucial point. Obama is planning for post inauguration. Legally and constitutionally he cannot act now. His plans are for when he takes office and his team are working to that day when they go 'live'. Constitutionally Bush and Bush alone has the authority to act or speak on behalf of the US, but at the end of a final term the administration is reduced to almost non-existence. In reality presidents always have less power than people think. Most of Reagan's budgets ended up in the bin, with Congress substituting their own. Richard Neustadt observed that US presidents really only have power for 3 of 8 years. Most of Year 1 they are newbies learning the ropes and choosing staff. They have power in part of Year 2, but then Congressional elections kick in and their hands are tied. They have power in year 3 and maybe a bit of year 4, but then congressional and presidential elections kick in. They have power in year 5 and a bit of year 6 before congressional elections kick in. Year 7 power begins to seep away as America focuses on choosing a new candidate, with politicians more concerned with aligning themselves with the new man or woman than with the old guy in the White House. By year 8 you are almost always a political dead man walking, with even your staff jumping ship to join the new administration's team if of the same party, or to get into the private sector. It is more prestigious to hire a White House staffer straight from the White House than to hire an ex-staffer who was unemployed. So people move while their president is in office. So you find that from mid-year 7 your presidency is dying and in year 8 comatose. Clinton said he spent most of year 8 playing golf and travelling, because there was fuck all he could do any more. And once the presidential election is over, the remaining staff start a stampede away. By January you have a skeleton staff. Power but not legal authority rests with the President-elect. Legal authority but no power rests with the President.

So even if Bush had full plans to try to trigger off a war with Iran, most of his middle east experts in the administration are gone to academia or new jobs. Even Condi is winding down, and his Defence Secretary works more with Obama's team than Bush's now. Bush's presidency is over in all but name. The glitch with the American system is that while the old administration runs down the new one cannot take up office. So there is a power vacuum. Even Bush's ambassadors have mostly left their countries by this stage. But it used to be even worse when the new president used to be inaugurated in March. Then you effectively had a six month power vacuum between administrations. Now it is down to three since the inauguration was moved to January. I forget which president it was who said that he knew just how irrelevant he was when a meeting took place in the situation room in early January and half the chairs were empty. Sometimes before it had been almost standing room only. And he despaired when he learnt about an international incident first from his secretary watching CNN in her office next door before he heard it from State. (In fact he had to call State to get them to brief him, and none of their East European experts were around.)

Notwithstanding all the craziness you describe, which I don't dispute, political powers have long and medium term strategic goals and political agenda and relationships that are fully operational irrespective of who is the current premier.

Israel is acting as the main military player in this, all the US needs to do is give the nod, and this has been done. The fact that the US is in an interregnum does not imo make much difference at this stage.

The attack on Gaza is firing up a massive reaction on the streets, so far mainly amongst moslems, from London to Kabul and Indonesia. If this is a deliberate provocation by the US, the US is running the risk that this movement might broaden out and link up with general political and economic opposition to current regimes/governments.

cactus flower wrote:

toxic avenger wrote:

The Israels broke the truce, no-one was killed until they invaded and killed a number of Palestinian militants in early November. Not that I have any time for the Islamofascists of Hamas.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/nov/05/israelandthepalestinians

The Czech PM, Topolanek, speaking as President of the EU, has described Israel's actions as 'more defensive than offensive'. France has condemned their actions unequivocally.

http://www.africasia.com/services/news/newsitem.php?area=mideast&item=090103204619.k10mpyyi.php

Anyone still think CFSP is a good idea?

My guess is that there would be a perpetual push and pull between pro US and pro French expansionary agendas.

The Whitehouse has just said that US officials have been in regular contact with officials in the region as well as in Europe.

I suspect Topolanek's comments about Israel's actions being "more defensive than offensive" will have drawn a universal "what the fuck?" reaction in European capitals. He and his foreign minister will get a right royal rollicking over it at the next meeting of the Council of Foreign Ministers meeting. The guy is only in day 3 of his country's first ever EU presidency and understandably when thrown in at the deep end has made a mistake.

As to the White House being in contract with officials in the region and in Europe, I should jolly well hope so. Bush's remaining foreign policy advisors in the WH will have opened up channels with the troika, the EU presidency on its own, Sarkozy as the former EU president, the Israelis, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, the Palestinian president and there will be low-level contacts with the Iranians on a 'if reported we deny' basis. They will also contact the Russian president.

A lot of the contacts will be seeking information (what are your diplomats hearing? Have you received any official or unofficial briefings? What is your media reporting?) and then trying to agree a strategy. (And yes, young dan, you may be too dumb to know what happens, but they will be watching all the news channels. Try to keep up and leave your fantasies to one side. I hope you are better at running your bar than you are at understanding how the real world works.)

Diplomats will be working on a deal to be announced at the Security Council.

Papal Knight wrote:

The reality is simple. Hamas leaders have been under pressure for months from militants within it, who saw the ceasefire as treason. To cover themselves the Hamas leadership called off the ceasefire, but fucked up on two points:

They didn't factor in the impact of the forthcoming general election, and the fact that the Israeli government could not let the ceasefire end and rockets begin without killing off their own electoral chances. So they had to respond.

Hamas forgot the basic rule of international relations - never ever call off a ceasefire in the Christmas period or in August. Your opponents can be reined in from attacking at other times of the year, but at those times foreign ministers are on holidays, the UN is on holidays, and all the key figures in international diplomacy are away. So if your opponents respond they will get a week to 10 days freedom to do so because the normal restraint mechanisms are not around. The UN, Troika and others can react quickly at other times but in late December-early January, and in August, all the key people are away and cannot swing into action instantly. Israel knows that and is using that to their advantage. The key advisors on the middle east for example in Dublin and London are all away and are rushing back to advise their ministers, who are themselves rushing back themselves from breaks. (They never seem to learn that most wars start in January or July/August precisely because at that time the key referees and international figures are on holiday (everything from WWI and WWII to most recently in South Ossetia).

The Gaza attack has nothing to do with a Gulf currency. And it has nothing to do with the US trying to engineer an attack on Iran. People who think that know nothing about what happens in the weeks before the changeover in presidents in the US. Over 80% of Bush's key backroom people have jumped ship - that is what happens. In the interregnum they start hunting for new jobs. By the last two weeks in a presidency the joke is that the only people left around the White House are the President and the cleaners. Everyone else has gone, or is going. In January of a changeover period a president has a skeleton staff and barely enough authority to order a cup of coffee. Bush has been trying to engineer a war with Iran for 3 years. Right now, even if he wanted to, he couldn't organise one. Almost all his foreign policy staff are going or gone. People who will remain with Obama are now working for him. Clinton described on day a couple of weeks before Bush took office going for a walk around the West Wing and finding it almost deserted. (He joked that he could not even find enough people around to play a round of golf with.) So anyone who thinks Bush has the power to start a war right now is dreaming. The Bush administration, like all outgoing administrations, is effectively over, with all the key personnel below cabinet level gone, or if not gone, too busy getting CVs out and organising their papers to do anything much.

Conspiracy theorists like Young Dan seem to live in some fantasy world. In reality wars start because of human beings, more often than not because human beings fuck up, trigger off something and then find themselves thinking "oh bugger. What have I done?" And if the Israeli attack goes wrong, you will find the Israeli PM thinking those words. Political power in reality is like the Wizzard of Oz, impressive the further away you are from it, but the closer you get the more you find it is some ordinary guy trying desperately to give the impression he has a clue what he is doing. (At one stage a CNN reporter said how President Bush and his top aides were having a meeting to plan strategy at the start of the Iraq war. It drew a laugh, according to one of the aides in an article later. Bush and his aides were actually gathered in the room together to watch CNN to find out what was going on. And you can pretty sure that Sarkozy, Cowen, Brown and others aren't having high level secret discussions about the offensive right now. They are sitting watching CNN, BBC News 24, or Sky the same as the rest of us. That is the real world, a million miles from the conspiracy theory fantasy so beloved of people who post rubbish on you tube.

Good Post PK - probably way too close to reality for most of the gang around here, or on any internet site sadly.

Posters come on to sites like this for positive reinforcement of their own particular world views - the one that most in vogue around here - "I know and have the answer to everything - why is nobody in the real world actually listening to me seeing as I am this all powerful oracle - thus there most be some almighty devious conspiracy that is militating against me - there has to be - because I know and see everything and its so black and white that only the Masons or some similar form of oligarchy is pulling the wool over everybody else's eyes". Im getting used to this - put it down to the fact that both of us are involved politically in the real world , are in movements that occasionally are democratically voted into executive power and we know only too well the limits of executive power in democracies, the fickleness of electorates and all too human fallibilities and frailities of those who have to temporarily assume executive power and the compromises that are required to govern for the many. Its quite telling the differences between those here who are aware that they or their parties will have assume the responsibility of power ,either currently or in the future and those who have the luxury of knowing that they will be bitching from the ditch for the rest of their mortal lives - its dead easy to be right on every thing when you know you will never be asked to test those beliefs

Cactus and Young Dans' responses to your post are sadly predictable - in fact I could have written 90% of the them for them. For Cactus its that the Yanks are the source of all evil in this world (with a little left aside for the french in regard to EU/Lisbon matters) - its like a scratched record at this stage - for Young Dan - its that old central all powerful,all seeing central/world government shillelagh - you know- the one that is the reason he is reduced to spluttering his inanities and frustrations here on Machine Nation and is not currently president of the USA - so powerful and pervasive that it is involved and responsible for every conspiracy and conflict in the world - but sadly not powerful enough to keep its rich friends rich and all us plebs buying over-priced houses - which , in the grand scheme of things, you would have thought would have been a doddle compared to starting conflicts in the middle east and other places - aye, a bit of a contradiction there alright

Cactus - you need a bit of a geography and history lesson - Israel, the occupied territories and Lebanon would all fit quite handily into Counties Kilkenny,Carlow,Wexford and Wicklow - its that small - for a country in which every citizen has to serve in the armed forces and remain in reserve standby and has the biggest and most modern military in the Middle East and has been permanently on a state of high alert since its foundation in 1948 and not without good reason - its not really a major logisitical feat to amass an army on the borders of the Gaza Strip inside 72+ hours - you can drive anywhere in Israel in less than 3 hours and im quite sure that the need for the reoccupation of Gaza at some point in the future has been on the IDF's planning list since they left in 2005 - there is no major conspiracy here - this conflict has been going on since 2005 - the rocket bombardment has been unceasing - its just got dramatically upgraded with the combination of a forthcoming general election in Israel and the fact that 85-90% of the population of Israel are four square behind sorting out hamas once and for all - Israel still is the only functioning democracy in the region. I think the Yanks have been caught on the hop aswell as everybody else - The State and Defense departments are temporarily headless at the moment ,in between administrations - The Israelis and Hamas are in the driving seat here - both look to be up for a fight to the bitter end. Cactus - your world belief in the fact that the US (and France when it comes to EU/Lisbon matters) is behind all evils in this world is becoming a bit of joke now - Its a guarantee that if the US seems to be backing, or just remaining neutral, or a US politican speaks out in regard to an issue - your automatic default position is always to back up to the hilt whoever is in "opposition" to that percieved American covert activity - be it Russia,Venezuela,Bolivia,Middle East, Africa ,China etc etc - Since we(Ireland) are part of the same hypocrisy as you endlessly remind us - I have no idea why you are still living here when the more pure pastures of Russia and South American Populist republics seem far more to your liking?

Whether Israel will succeed is a good question - I have my doubts - leaving aside the rights and wrongs of the conflict - I dont think that it is possible to militarily defeat Hamas without a re-occupation of the Gaza Strip. I visited there in the heady days of 1995 when I was teaching english up the road in Beirut that summer and I can remember the optimism that had been endengered by the Oslo talks - then again I was also bluntly aware that the Palestinians were still and are still fighting among themselves - Hamas were steadily losing popularity in the Gaza Strip as it had become obvious that one set of nepotic corrupt demagogues(Fatah) had been exchanged for another(Hamas) and they only way to take peoples attention away from this was to keep the war against the Jews going and with predictable results - Israel will never be defeated militarily - if there was a snowballs chance of that Egypt,Syria,Jordan,Iran and the rest of the Palestinian peoples "friends and brothers" would have been in there like a shot. Palestine needs a Gandhi - not another Saladin - those days are over. Im not disputing the morality of what is happening in the Gaza Strip - but Im a realist - the Palestinians need to get real - the US and the EU do not have a potential magic wand that if used the right way will make everything the way all Palestines armchair supporters would like it to be - part one of that new reality would be to use to 21st century weapons - the media and in particular - the US media - to erode Israels image in that part of the world - the usual crazies in balaclavas with Ak-47s with bloodlust in skakey black and white vision might work in the madrassas of Pakistan and Qom - but thats not where their salvation is going to come from.

cactus flower wrote:

Notwithstanding all the craziness you describe, which I don't dispute, political powers have long and medium term strategic goals and political agenda and relationships that are fully operational irrespective of who is the current premier.

Israel is acting as the main military player in this, all the US needs to do is give the nod, and this has been done. The fact that the US is in an interregnum does not imo make much difference at this stage.

The attack on Gaza is firing up a massive reaction on the streets, so far mainly amongst moslems, from London to Kabul and Indonesia. If this is a deliberate provocation by the US, the US is running the risk that this movement might broaden out and link up with general political and economic opposition to current regimes/governments.

You overestimate how clued in the US government is about the region. According to Alaistair Campbell when the Americans planning to invade Iraq they didn't even know the difference between Sunni and Shiite. Others in contact with the administration came back horrified at the sheer depth of the ignorance. They even had some maps wrong! The scary thing is that Bush's notorious ignorance on Iraq was reflected elsewhere where some of his senior people thought the war would last 6-8 weeks, the Iraqis would hero-worship them and when the pulled out would establish a western democracy or a constitutional monarchy with the ex-Iraqi Royal Family returned. (One Bush aide asked whether they could bring back the ex-king. Another whispered 'isn't he dead?' It took a visiting diplomat to point out that King Faisal II was murdered during the coup that overthrew him in 1958. The Americans were mixing up the ex-King of Iraq with the ex-King of Afghanistan, Zahir Shah, who at that stage was still alive!)

So, seriously, don't overestimate the extent to which the Americans have a clue about the Middle East. They are so clueless about international affairs Bush recently thought Spain was a republic when welcoming the 'Spanish president' (ie prime minister).

Quote :

Edo wrote:

Papal Knight wrote:

The reality is simple. Hamas leaders have been under pressure for months from militants within it, who saw the ceasefire as treason. To cover themselves the Hamas leadership called off the ceasefire, but fucked up on two points:

They didn't factor in the impact of the forthcoming general election, and the fact that the Israeli government could not let the ceasefire end and rockets begin without killing off their own electoral chances. So they had to respond.

Hamas forgot the basic rule of international relations - never ever call off a ceasefire in the Christmas period or in August. Your opponents can be reined in from attacking at other times of the year, but at those times foreign ministers are on holidays, the UN is on holidays, and all the key figures in international diplomacy are away. So if your opponents respond they will get a week to 10 days freedom to do so because the normal restraint mechanisms are not around. The UN, Troika and others can react quickly at other times but in late December-early January, and in August, all the key people are away and cannot swing into action instantly. Israel knows that and is using that to their advantage. The key advisors on the middle east for example in Dublin and London are all away and are rushing back to advise their ministers, who are themselves rushing back themselves from breaks. (They never seem to learn that most wars start in January or July/August precisely because at that time the key referees and international figures are on holiday (everything from WWI and WWII to most recently in South Ossetia).

The Gaza attack has nothing to do with a Gulf currency. And it has nothing to do with the US trying to engineer an attack on Iran. People who think that know nothing about what happens in the weeks before the changeover in presidents in the US. Over 80% of Bush's key backroom people have jumped ship - that is what happens. In the interregnum they start hunting for new jobs. By the last two weeks in a presidency the joke is that the only people left around the White House are the President and the cleaners. Everyone else has gone, or is going. In January of a changeover period a president has a skeleton staff and barely enough authority to order a cup of coffee. Bush has been trying to engineer a war with Iran for 3 years. Right now, even if he wanted to, he couldn't organise one. Almost all his foreign policy staff are going or gone. People who will remain with Obama are now working for him. Clinton described on day a couple of weeks before Bush took office going for a walk around the West Wing and finding it almost deserted. (He joked that he could not even find enough people around to play a round of golf with.) So anyone who thinks Bush has the power to start a war right now is dreaming. The Bush administration, like all outgoing administrations, is effectively over, with all the key personnel below cabinet level gone, or if not gone, too busy getting CVs out and organising their papers to do anything much.

Conspiracy theorists like Young Dan seem to live in some fantasy world. In reality wars start because of human beings, more often than not because human beings fuck up, trigger off something and then find themselves thinking "oh bugger. What have I done?" And if the Israeli attack goes wrong, you will find the Israeli PM thinking those words. Political power in reality is like the Wizzard of Oz, impressive the further away you are from it, but the closer you get the more you find it is some ordinary guy trying desperately to give the impression he has a clue what he is doing. (At one stage a CNN reporter said how President Bush and his top aides were having a meeting to plan strategy at the start of the Iraq war. It drew a laugh, according to one of the aides in an article later. Bush and his aides were actually gathered in the room together to watch CNN to find out what was going on. And you can pretty sure that Sarkozy, Cowen, Brown and others aren't having high level secret discussions about the offensive right now. They are sitting watching CNN, BBC News 24, or Sky the same as the rest of us. That is the real world, a million miles from the conspiracy theory fantasy so beloved of people who post rubbish on you tube.

Good Post PK - probably way too close to reality for most of the gang around here, or on any internet site sadly.

Posters come on to sites like this for positive reinforcement of their own particular world views - the one that most in vogue around here - "I know and have the answer to everything - why is nobody in the real world actually listening to me seeing as I am this all powerful oracle - thus there most be some almighty devious conspiracy that is militating against me - there has to be - because I know and see everything and its so black and white that only the Masons or some similar form of oligarchy is pulling the wool over everybody else's eyes". Im getting used to this - put it down to the fact that both of us are involved politically in the real world , are in movements that occasionally are democratically voted into executive power and we know only too well the limits of executive power in democracies, the fickleness of electorates and all too human fallibilities and frailities of those who have to temporarily assume executive power and the compromises that are required to govern for the many. Its quite telling the differences between those here who are aware that they or their parties will have assume the responsibility of power ,either currently or in the future and those who have the luxury of knowing that they will be bitching from the ditch for the rest of their mortal lives - its dead easy to be right on every thing when you know you will never be asked to test those beliefs

Cactus and Young Dans' responses to your post are sadly predictable - in fact I could have written 90% of the them for them. For Cactus its that the Yanks are the source of all evil in this world (with a little left aside for the french in regard to EU/Lisbon matters) - its like a scratched record at this stage - for Young Dan - its that old central all powerful,all seeing central/world government shillelagh - you know- the one that is the reason he is reduced to spluttering his inanities and frustrations here on Machine Nation and is not currently president of the USA - so powerful and pervasive that it is involved and responsible for every conspiracy and conflict in the world - but sadly not powerful enough to keep its rich friends rich and all us plebs buying over-priced houses - which , in the grand scheme of things, you would have thought would have been a doddle compared to starting conflicts in the middle east and other places - aye, a bit of a contradiction there alright

Cactus - you need a bit of a geography and history lesson - Israel, the occupied territories and Lebanon would all fit quite handily into Counties Kilkenny,Carlow,Wexford and Wicklow - its that small - for a country in which every citizen has to serve in the armed forces and remain in reserve standby and has the biggest and most modern military in the Middle East and has been permanently on a state of high alert since its foundation in 1948 and not without good reason - its not really a major logisitical feat to amass an army on the borders of the Gaza Strip inside 72+ hours - you can drive anywhere in Israel in less than 3 hours and im quite sure that the need for the reoccupation of Gaza at some point in the future has been on the IDF's planning list since they left in 2005 - there is no major conspiracy here - this conflict has been going on since 2005 - the rocket bombardment has been unceasing - its just got dramatically upgraded with the combination of a forthcoming general election in Israel and the fact that 85-90% of the population of Israel are four square behind sorting out hamas once and for all - Israel still is the only functioning democracy in the region. I think the Yanks have been caught on the hop aswell as everybody else - The State and Defense departments are temporarily headless at the moment ,in between administrations - The Israelis and Hamas are in the driving seat here - both look to be up for a fight to the bitter end. Cactus - your world belief in the fact that the US (and France when it comes to EU/Lisbon matters) is behind all evils in this world is becoming a bit of joke now - Its a guarantee that if the US seems to be backing, or just remaining neutral, or a US politican speaks out in regard to an issue - your automatic default position is always to back up to the hilt whoever is in "opposition" to that percieved American covert activity - be it Russia,Venezuela,Bolivia,Middle East, Africa ,China etc etc - Since we(Ireland) are part of the same hypocrisy as you endlessly remind us - I have no idea why you are still living here when the more pure pastures of Russia and South American Populist republics seem far more to your liking?

Whether Israel will succeed is a good question - I have my doubts - leaving aside the rights and wrongs of the conflict - I dont think that it is possible to militarily defeat Hamas without a re-occupation of the Gaza Strip. I visited there in the heady days of 1995 when I was teaching english up the road in Beirut that summer and I can remember the optimism that had been endengered by the Oslo talks - then again I was also bluntly aware that the Palestinians were still and are still fighting among themselves - Hamas were steadily losing popularity in the Gaza Strip as it had become obvious that one set of nepotic corrupt demagogues(Fatah) had been exchanged for another(Hamas) and they only way to take peoples attention away from this was to keep the war against the Jews going and with predictable results - Israel will never be defeated militarily - if there was a snowballs chance of that Egypt,Syria,Jordan,Iran and the rest of the Palestinian peoples "friends and brothers" would have been in there like a shot. Palestine needs a Gandhi - not another Saladin - those days are over. Im not disputing the morality of what is happening in the Gaza Strip - but Im a realist - the Palestinians need to get real - the US and the EU do not have a potential magic wand that if used the right way will make everything the way all Palestines armchair supporters would like it to be - part one of that new reality would be to use to 21st century weapons - the media and in particular - the US media - to erode Israels image in that part of the world - the usual crazies in balaclavas with Ak-47s with bloodlust in skakey black and white vision might work in the madrassas of Pakistan and Qum - but thats not where their salvation is going to come from.

Thanks for the geography lesson Edo, I really had no idea of that, notwithstanding the maps posted on this site. As usual, you have been there, done that, and have the t-shirt, but that doesn't add any substance to your assertion that the rocket bombardment has been unceasing - Hamas, so far as I can see from reading a variety of sources, observed the cease fire. Have you information to the contrary? I presume you also dispute what Toxic Avenger said about Israel having broken the cease fire? This again has been widely reported.

Is there anyone on this thread who has said that Hamas has got the answers for this? I wonder if you've read the thread, as I've put my view forward here that its the Arab leadership that is the problem here, every bit as much as the US and Israeli agenda. If you wan't to defend the Israeli and US stance on Palestine, why don't you do it instead of hiding behing a big rant about other peoples' opposition to it ?

Telling the Palestinians to "get real" under the present circumstances when their choices in Gaza are down to trying to stay alive while 21st century weapons are raining down on their heads is really a bit rich.

Edo wrote:

Papal Knight wrote:

The reality is simple. Hamas leaders have been under pressure for months from militants within it, who saw the ceasefire as treason. To cover themselves the Hamas leadership called off the ceasefire, but fucked up on two points:

They didn't factor in the impact of the forthcoming general election, and the fact that the Israeli government could not let the ceasefire end and rockets begin without killing off their own electoral chances. So they had to respond.

Hamas forgot the basic rule of international relations - never ever call off a ceasefire in the Christmas period or in August. Your opponents can be reined in from attacking at other times of the year, but at those times foreign ministers are on holidays, the UN is on holidays, and all the key figures in international diplomacy are away. So if your opponents respond they will get a week to 10 days freedom to do so because the normal restraint mechanisms are not around. The UN, Troika and others can react quickly at other times but in late December-early January, and in August, all the key people are away and cannot swing into action instantly. Israel knows that and is using that to their advantage. The key advisors on the middle east for example in Dublin and London are all away and are rushing back to advise their ministers, who are themselves rushing back themselves from breaks. (They never seem to learn that most wars start in January or July/August precisely because at that time the key referees and international figures are on holiday (everything from WWI and WWII to most recently in South Ossetia).

The Gaza attack has nothing to do with a Gulf currency. And it has nothing to do with the US trying to engineer an attack on Iran. People who think that know nothing about what happens in the weeks before the changeover in presidents in the US. Over 80% of Bush's key backroom people have jumped ship - that is what happens. In the interregnum they start hunting for new jobs. By the last two weeks in a presidency the joke is that the only people left around the White House are the President and the cleaners. Everyone else has gone, or is going. In January of a changeover period a president has a skeleton staff and barely enough authority to order a cup of coffee. Bush has been trying to engineer a war with Iran for 3 years. Right now, even if he wanted to, he couldn't organise one. Almost all his foreign policy staff are going or gone. People who will remain with Obama are now working for him. Clinton described on day a couple of weeks before Bush took office going for a walk around the West Wing and finding it almost deserted. (He joked that he could not even find enough people around to play a round of golf with.) So anyone who thinks Bush has the power to start a war right now is dreaming. The Bush administration, like all outgoing administrations, is effectively over, with all the key personnel below cabinet level gone, or if not gone, too busy getting CVs out and organising their papers to do anything much.

Conspiracy theorists like Young Dan seem to live in some fantasy world. In reality wars start because of human beings, more often than not because human beings fuck up, trigger off something and then find themselves thinking "oh bugger. What have I done?" And if the Israeli attack goes wrong, you will find the Israeli PM thinking those words. Political power in reality is like the Wizzard of Oz, impressive the further away you are from it, but the closer you get the more you find it is some ordinary guy trying desperately to give the impression he has a clue what he is doing. (At one stage a CNN reporter said how President Bush and his top aides were having a meeting to plan strategy at the start of the Iraq war. It drew a laugh, according to one of the aides in an article later. Bush and his aides were actually gathered in the room together to watch CNN to find out what was going on. And you can pretty sure that Sarkozy, Cowen, Brown and others aren't having high level secret discussions about the offensive right now. They are sitting watching CNN, BBC News 24, or Sky the same as the rest of us. That is the real world, a million miles from the conspiracy theory fantasy so beloved of people who post rubbish on you tube.

Good Post PK - probably way too close to reality for most of the gang around here, or on any internet site sadly.

Posters come on to sites like this for positive reinforcement of their own particular world views - the one that most in vogue around here - "I know and have the answer to everything - why is nobody in the real world actually listening to me seeing as I am this all powerful oracle - thus there most be some almighty devious conspiracy that is militating against me - there has to be - because I know and see everything and its so black and white that only the Masons or some similar form of oligarchy is pulling the wool over everybody else's eyes". Im getting used to this - put it down to the fact that both of us are involved politically in the real world , are in movements that occasionally are democratically voted into executive power and we know only too well the limits of executive power in democracies, the fickleness of electorates and all too human fallibilities and frailities of those who have to temporarily assume executive power and the compromises that are required to govern for the many. Its quite telling the differences between those here who are aware that they or their parties will have assume the responsibility of power ,either currently or in the future and those who have the luxury of knowing that they will be bitching from the ditch for the rest of their mortal lives - its dead easy to be right on every thing when you know you will never be asked to test those beliefs

Cactus and Young Dans' responses to your post are sadly predictable - in fact I could have written 90% of the them for them. For Cactus its that the Yanks are the source of all evil in this world (with a little left aside for the french in regard to EU/Lisbon matters) - its like a scratched record at this stage - for Young Dan - its that old central all powerful,all seeing central/world government shillelagh - you know- the one that is the reason he is reduced to spluttering his inanities and frustrations here on Machine Nation and is not currently president of the USA - so powerful and pervasive that it is involved and responsible for every conspiracy and conflict in the world - but sadly not powerful enough to keep its rich friends rich and all us plebs buying over-priced houses - which , in the grand scheme of things, you would have thought would have been a doddle compared to starting conflicts in the middle east and other places - aye, a bit of a contradiction there alright

Cactus - you need a bit of a geography and history lesson - Israel, the occupied territories and Lebanon would all fit quite handily into Counties Kilkenny,Carlow,Wexford and Wicklow - its that small - for a country in which every citizen has to serve in the armed forces and remain in reserve standby and has the biggest and most modern military in the Middle East and has been permanently on a state of high alert since its foundation in 1948 and not without good reason - its not really a major logisitical feat to amass an army on the borders of the Gaza Strip inside 72+ hours - you can drive anywhere in Israel in less than 3 hours and im quite sure that the need for the reoccupation of Gaza at some point in the future has been on the IDF's planning list since they left in 2005 - there is no major conspiracy here - this conflict has been going on since 2005 - the rocket bombardment has been unceasing - its just got dramatically upgraded with the combination of a forthcoming general election in Israel and the fact that 85-90% of the population of Israel are four square behind sorting out hamas once and for all - Israel still is the only functioning democracy in the region. I think the Yanks have been caught on the hop aswell as everybody else - The State and Defense departments are temporarily headless at the moment ,in between administrations - The Israelis and Hamas are in the driving seat here - both look to be up for a fight to the bitter end. Cactus - your world belief in the fact that the US (and France when it comes to EU/Lisbon matters) is behind all evils in this world is becoming a bit of joke now - Its a guarantee that if the US seems to be backing, or just remaining neutral, or a US politican speaks out in regard to an issue - your automatic default position is always to back up to the hilt whoever is in "opposition" to that percieved American covert activity - be it Russia,Venezuela,Bolivia,Middle East, Africa ,China etc etc - Since we(Ireland) are part of the same hypocrisy as you endlessly remind us - I have no idea why you are still living here when the more pure pastures of Russia and South American Populist republics seem far more to your liking?

Whether Israel will succeed is a good question - I have my doubts - leaving aside the rights and wrongs of the conflict - I dont think that it is possible to militarily defeat Hamas without a re-occupation of the Gaza Strip. I visited there in the heady days of 1995 when I was teaching english up the road in Beirut that summer and I can remember the optimism that had been endengered by the Oslo talks - then again I was also bluntly aware that the Palestinians were still and are still fighting among themselves - Hamas were steadily losing popularity in the Gaza Strip as it had become obvious that one set of nepotic corrupt demagogues(Fatah) had been exchanged for another(Hamas) and they only way to take peoples attention away from this was to keep the war against the Jews going and with predictable results - Israel will never be defeated militarily - if there was a snowballs chance of that Egypt,Syria,Jordan,Iran and the rest of the Palestinian peoples "friends and brothers" would have been in there like a shot. Palestine needs a Gandhi - not another Saladin - those days are over. Im not disputing the morality of what is happening in the Gaza Strip - but Im a realist - the Palestinians need to get real - the US and the EU do not have a potential magic wand that if used the right way will make everything the way all Palestines armchair supporters would like it to be - part one of that new reality would be to use to 21st century weapons - the media and in particular - the US media - to erode Israels image in that part of the world - the usual crazies in balaclavas with Ak-47s with bloodlust in skakey black and white vision might work in the madrassas of Pakistan and Qom - but thats not where their salvation is going to come from.

Fascinating. One comment I remember hearing once was that you can tell how much real experience someone has of government by how much they believe in plots and conspiracies. The more they believe in them, the less their actual experience is. Because the more experience one gets the more one realises that governments can barely run their own offices much less grandiose plots.

I don't have any difficulty in anything you are saying about incompetence, ignorance and blundering by governments, Papal Knight. However Governments do know what they want and who their friends and enemies are and spend a lot of money on covert activities, not all of which is thrown away.

People who have no direct experience of conspiracies often don't realise how close they can be to things without seeing them. I'm sure most Germans had no idea about the mass killing of Jews during WWII.

If Edo is trying to tell us that he thinks the US has never been involved in covert and open activities to get regime change to serve its interests, then he should spit it out.

cactus flower wrote:

As usual, you have been there, done that, and have the t-shirt, but that doesn't add any substance to your assertion that the rocket bombardment has been unceasing - Hamas, so far as I can see from reading a variety of sources, observed the cease fire. Have you information to the contrary? I presume you also dispute what Toxic Avenger said about Israel having broken the cease fire? This again has been widely reported.

Rocket-fire was dramatically reduced during the ceasefire, but it didn't stop altogeher. This was enough for Israel to claim the ceasfire wasn't being observed and they did the odd ceasefire-breaking acitivity themselves (mainly the blockede). Hamas blamed independent groups for the rocket-fire, but questions were asked about Hamas' willingness (and/or ability) to stop the rocket-fire.

It's pointless arguing over who started what and when. Whether the Israelis preplanned the conflict is academic too, it would be hard to prove. Ditto Hamas.

I'm interested in Edo's assertion that Hamas is just as corrupt as Fatah and losing popularity. I'm not rubbishing the claim, but I'd like a source. I'm certainly not uying the idea that Hamas started the war to mask their unpopularity.

Here's an interesting post which is on the main page of indymedia, by Justin Morahan.



http://www.indymedia.ie/article/90404

Quote :

Letter to Dr Zion Evrony, Israeli Ambassador to Ireland


Dear Ambassador Dr. Zion Evrony,


Further to my telephone call to your office this morning I wish to reiterate some of the points which I made in the conversation with your secretary, and to elaborate on them a little further.

1. I am sick to the teeth of the lies you are telling on RTE and in the Irish media about what is happening in Gaza. Israel has killed over 400 people there on the pretext that a cease-fire had been broken unilaterally by Hamas. You know this is not true.

2. You said that Israel is trying to avoid civilian casualties but that Hamas use their civilians as shields for Hamas soldiers. You know that this is not true. Gaza is smaller in area than our smallest County, Louth, and is over-populated with 1.4 million people, before your country reduced the population with murder from the sky.

3. Your Army invaded Gaza prior to an election and in the interregnum between the Presidencies of George W. Bush and Barack Obama. You kill over 400, injure over 1000 and promise more killings and injuries. And you blame Hamas for all of these killings and injuries. You know that it is not true that Hamas are to blame for your murders. You, the State of Israel and the IDF, are to blame for the people you kill and injure, no one else but you.

4 You said the upcoming elections had nothing to do with the massacre in Gaza. You know that this is not true. On the eve of the election you deliberately provoked a barrage of rockets from Hamas, even though you knew it would put Israeli lives in danger because you also knew that the Hamas response would give you a pretext to wreak havoc on Gaza and make it appear that it was Hamas' fault.

1. 
   5. You and other Israeli propagandists keep repeating ad nauseam on RTE and in articles in the Irish Times the question: "What would you do, if you lived in Sderot or Ashkelon and your children had to run from constant rocket fire?" But you never ask the countering questions: "What would you do if you lived in Gaza, besieged by an Israel that denied the legitimacy of your democratically elected Parliament, and where Israel,a hostile power, has ultimate control over every aspect of your life? What would you do when this hostile power has the fourth or fifth most powerful army in the world, complete even with a nuclear arsenal, when it "agrees" to a truce (good public relations) that it breaks at will (no-one will notice the "small" incursions and killings of Palestinians)? What would you do if Israel invaded your little plot of land, murdering men, women and children, including many
   civilians, from the sky? Would you take your children and run to the sea (there is no other escape in Gaza) or would you think "This
   is a war against me and my children" and would you resist in whatever way you could?"
   
   6. Do you think that all of the Irish people are stupid enough to believe your propaganda(2), no matter how often it is repeated?
   
   7. Though not mentioned this morning, your Government has lied about the Israeli navy ramming the Dignity in international waters. The Dignity was carrying humanitarian aid to Gaza and had two Irish citizens on board. I protest against this action also and strongly condemn it
   
   8. As a result of the war crimes which the IDF/Israel has committed in the Gaza Strip and in Palestine, I believe that our Government should call you in, advise you to leave and shut down the Israeli Embassy in Ballsbridge.
   
   I have already written to Minister Mícheál Martin making this precise request.
   
   With best personal wishes
   
   Justin Morahan
   2 January 2009
   
2. 
   

Some of the links in the linked article above are to the Israeli peace group, Gush Shalom, such as,

http://zope.gush-shalom.org/home/en/channels/press_releases/1230491211/

Quote :

The escalation towards war could and should have been avoided. It was the State of Israel which broke the truce, in the 'ticking tunnel' raid on the night of the US elections two months ago. Since then the army went on stoking the fires of escalation with calculated raids and killings, whenever the shooting of missiles on Israel decreased

Thought it might add some clarity to the discussion.

905 wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

As usual, you have been there, done that, and have the t-shirt, but that doesn't add any substance to your assertion that the rocket bombardment has been unceasing - Hamas, so far as I can see from reading a variety of sources, observed the cease fire. Have you information to the contrary? I presume you also dispute what Toxic Avenger said about Israel having broken the cease fire? This again has been widely reported.

Rocket-fire was dramatically reduced during the ceasefire, but it didn't stop altogeher. This was enough for Israel to claim the ceasfire wasn't being observed and they did the odd ceasefire-breaking acitivity themselves (mainly the blockede). Hamas blamed independent groups for the rocket-fire, but questions were asked about Hamas' willingness (and/or ability) to stop the rocket-fire.

It's pointless arguing over who started what and when. Whether the Israelis preplanned the conflict is academic too, it would be hard to prove. Ditto Hamas.

I'm interested in Edo's assertion that Hamas is just as corrupt as Fatah and losing popularity. I'm not rubbishing the claim, but I'd like a source. I'm certainly not uying the idea that Hamas started the war to mask their unpopularity.

There is also the allegation that the Israeli army broke the cease fire by targetting and killing some Hamas activists. It could be argued endlessly in both directions I agree, but there is plenty to suggest that Hamas wanted another cease fire, if you read the beginning of this thread.

also,

A quote by UN representative Richard Falk, "The magnitude, the deliberateness, the violations of international humanitarian
law… warrant the characterisation of a crime against humanity."


http://www.xpis.ps/Uploadarticles/485articles%20Richard%20Falk%20blames%20Israel%20for%20breaking%20the%20ceasefire.doc

Quote :

Richard
Falk blames Israel for breaking the ceasefire

"...Hamas has repeatedly proposed long-term truces with Israel and offered to negotiate a permanent truce. During the last cease-fire, established through Egyptian intermediaries in July, Hamas upheld the truce although Israel refused to ease the blockade. It was Israel that, on Nov. 4, initiated an armed attack that violated the truce and killed six Palestinians. It was only then that Hamas resumed firing rockets at Israel." --

Richard Falk, the U.N. special rapporteur for human rights in the occupied Palestinian territory and former Princeton University
law professor.

[....]
"It is macabre," Falk said of the blockade. "I don't know of anything that exactly fits this situation. People have been referring to the Warsaw ghetto as the nearest analog in modern times." "There is no structure of an occupation that endured for decades and involved this kind of oppressive circumstances," "The magnitude, the deliberateness, the violations of international humanitarian law, the impact on the health, lives and survival and the overall conditions warrant the characterization of a crime against humanity. This occupation is the direct intention by the Israeli military and civilian authorities. They are responsible and should be held
accountable." -- Richard Falk

"...what Israel is doing to the 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza "a crime against humanity." Falk, who is Jewish, has condemned the
collective punishment of the Palestinians in Gaza as "a flagrant and massive violation of international humanitarian law as laid down
in Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention." He has asked for "the International Criminal Court to investigate the situation,
and determine whether the Israeli civilian leaders and military commanders responsible for the Gaza siege should be indicted and
prosecuted for violations of international criminal law." --
Richard Falk

There seems to be extreme frustration and embarrassment amongst UN members that the US Security Council veto is being used to prevent any suitable response to the Israeli attack - the SC is described by members as disfunctional and the French ambassador to the UN has made a public statement saying that there is a consensus against the Israeli attack, apart from the US.

Ain't that always the way? I hear the US is the only one on the SC still pushing for a full conviction of al-Bashir, the president of Sudan.

905 wrote:

Ain't that always the way? I hear the US is the only one on the SC still pushing for a full conviction of al-Bashir, the president of Sudan.

Unless you tell me more, I'll be at a loss what to make of that.

Chris Andrews says Israel guilty of state terrorism.

Quote :

However, it is also clear that such is the extent of the over-reaction
by Israel that its actions can now only be classed as state terrorism

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/letters/2009/0105/1230936654466.html

cactus flower wrote:

People who have no direct experience of conspiracies often don't realise how close they can be to things without seeing them. I'm sure most Germans had no idea about the mass killing of Jews during WWII.

I don't think that's a good example. You haven't read Hitler's Willing Executioners by Goldhagen, have you?

soubresauts wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

People who have no direct experience of conspiracies often don't realise how close they can be to things without seeing them. I'm sure most Germans had no idea about the mass killing of Jews during WWII.

I don't think that's a good example. You haven't read Hitler's Willing Executioners by Goldhagen, have you?

No, but I would be interested to hear about it. I would be surprised if many Germans had an overview of the whole genocidal operation, and really understood what was going on. Denial comes into these things too.