The Israeli Air Attack - Hundreds Dead - Israeli Ground attack on Gaza is now under way

First, Gaza is not Palestine, it is a section of Palestine cut off from the rest. It is run by Hamas, but the West Bank is not. Hamas are nasty little theocratic thugs, but Gazans generally are not. Gazans are Palestinians, but a minority of Palestinians. The Palestinian Authority despises Hamas, both because they are a threat to their power and because they see them for the Islamofascists they are. Israel was unequivocally wrong to indiscriminately slaughter civilians. Israel also has the right to act to defend itself from rocket attacks. Israel's motives are various, and some of those motives are very cynical. But the motives of Hamas are, if anything, worse.

So let's not make the mistake of confusing a correct denunciation of Israel's recent actions with support by default for Hamas. Nor to confuse the slaughter of civilians by Israel with some kind of just retribution on terrorist activity.

There are problems of leadership of the Palestinians including the division between Fatah and Hamas. How much of that is real political difference and how much is squabbling over raw power i don't know.

Would any non-patsy leadership elected by the Palestinians have been respected by Israel and the West?

The more oppressed people are, the more groups like Hamas thrive.

News has just come through that the Gaza Islamic University has been bombed by the Israeli Air Force

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_University_of_Gaza

The people in Gaza elected Hamas so the majority of Gazans are Hamas supporters. Sure Fatah are delighted that Israel is doing what they are unable to do. They ran away to the West Bank

youngdan wrote:

The people in Gaza elected Hamas so the majority of Gazans are Hamas supporters. Sure Fatah are delighted that Israel is doing what they are unable to do. They ran away to the West Bank

Are Hamas not comparable to Sinn Fein here? They have political, social, religious and armed involvement with society. Hamas grew by providing local services to people who weren't getting them. It has its own phone services, education, police and so on. They have used provision of community services as a way of getting power. They are not what I would wish for the Palestinians, but the Palestinians in Gaza or elsewhere choose their own leadership.

youngdan wrote:

The people in Gaza elected Hamas so the majority of Gazans are Hamas supporters. Sure Fatah are delighted that Israel is doing what they are unable to do. They ran away to the West Bank

Hamas was only elected because of the polarisation and radicalisation caused by a combination of Fatah ineptitude and corruption and Israel's rather disgusting treatment of the Gazans. The Gazan people are all now to be denounced as Islamofascists and treated as such? Not buying it...

I would say that Hamas would be very like the situation of what Sinn Fein used to be..

Plenty on this site have greater knowledge of both than I and am all ears.

What I do believe though is that nobody is worried about the lads getting killed. Definately not Abbas or the Egyptians. Definately not Obama but that goes without saying

The Israel Air Force used a new bunker-buster missile that it received recently from the United States in strikes against Hamas targets in the Gaza Strip on Saturday, the Jerusalem Post learned on Sunday.

Israel received approval from Congress to purchase 1,000 units in September and defense officials said on Sunday that the first shipment had arrived earlier this month and was used successfully in penetrating underground Kassam launchers in the Gaza Strip during the heavy aerial bombardment of Hamas infrastructure on Saturday. It was also used in Sunday's bombing of tunnels in Rafah.

Well, not being Pro-Palestinian or Isreal nor particularly au fait with all the historical and interpersonal conjugations, I can only make topigraphical comments.

I listened to Livni and other such vox pops last night. She talks about changing the equation which will make Isreal completely secure. However, she seems to see no paradox in that she is willing to make others unsecure and unable to defend themselves. Her rhetoric smacks of subjugation with no hint at compromise. As long as Isreal gets what is wants to hell with the rest of the peoples in the region. It may work in the short term but I suspect will do nothing to address the underlying problems in the long term.

Any similarities between SF and Hamas are superficial at best. Religious spin has come predominantly from the brit propoganda machine. SF at every instance has used or been forced to use the existing power structures to forward its cause - something that many Republicans can't or won't stomach to this day. The geo-political and interpersonal dynamics are just too different to draw such topographical conclusions with the conflict in the middle east. I suppose some Republicans will identify similiarities between the a dominant power using disproportinate power to achieve their objectives but, again, these are as many dissimilarities.

There was a woman academic talking on RTE radio this morning who filled in some basics about Gaza - 10 kiliometres by 50 kilometres, population over 1.25 million -50 % approximately Palestinian refugees living in permanent "camps" and 50% Gazan Palestinians -all "Stateless Persons". Gaza is allowed to integrate economically neither with Israel nor with the West Bank. The borders are closed, access to cash and the necessities of life are restricted by Israel. There is a land border with Eygypt, also closed, with tunnels dug under it by the Gazans: the tunnels were bombed on Saturday.

Hamas will not recognise Israel as a legal State, as a matter of principle, but is apparently willing to negotiate a very long term compromise arrangement. The current cease fire expired a couple of weeks ago. What is going on is not an insurgency.

toxic avenger wrote:

First, Gaza is not Palestine, it is a section of Palestine cut off from the rest. It is run by Hamas, but the West Bank is not. Hamas are nasty little theocratic thugs, but Gazans generally are not. Gazans are Palestinians, but a minority of Palestinians. The Palestinian Authority despises Hamas, both because they are a threat to their power and because they see them for the Islamofascists they are. Israel was unequivocally wrong to indiscriminately slaughter civilians. Israel also has the right to act to defend itself from rocket attacks. Israel's motives are various, and some of those motives are very cynical. But the motives of Hamas are, if anything, worse.

So let's not make the mistake of confusing a correct denunciation of Israel's recent actions with support by default for Hamas. Nor to confuse the slaughter of civilians by Israel with some kind of just retribution on terrorist activity.

The reason Hamas were elected - by an overwhelming majority in one of the most scrutinised and fair democratic elections seen anywhere for a long time - was because of the widespread and justified conviction that Fatah were inextricably bound up in the corruption of the, relatively-speaking, West-orientated Palestinian Authority. Hamas had done more than any other group locally or internationally to alleviate the misery of those most severely affected by the failure and corruption of the PA. They were also opposed to the sell-out of the Oslo 'accords' which most Palestinians were vehemently opposed to at the time.

If Hamas are thugs, in this context, then what does that make the Israeli government and the US? The latter are, together, the most evil and vicious influences in the region. Hamas may be religiously fanatic on points that many of us here would equally dispute (women, homosexuality and other things) but beyond that it's altogether a different matter. Hamas was/is the democratically elected government of Palestine - destroyed and brought down by US-bakced Israeli interference because the result of the elections was not the one they wanted. Let he who has no sin cast the first stone - by that edict, we wouldn't begin to think of casting stones at Hamas for at least two centuries by the time we had dealt with the murderous activities of the the US and the UK alone. Unless or until people accept that the US and Israel are not even remotely interested in any sort of truly democratic resolution to what is happening in Palestine, then discussions like these are doomed to failure. This latest round of Israeli/US murder is about oil and geopolitical strategic advantage - rushed in sneakily while much of the west is asleep at its christmas break.

Barak Obama is of course one of the nasty little plotters in all of this - the dirty work being done before he gets into office so he doesn't appear to have blood on his hands.

Aragon wrote:

toxic avenger wrote:

First, Gaza is not Palestine, it is a section of Palestine cut off from the rest. It is run by Hamas, but the West Bank is not. Hamas are nasty little theocratic thugs, but Gazans generally are not. Gazans are Palestinians, but a minority of Palestinians. The Palestinian Authority despises Hamas, both because they are a threat to their power and because they see them for the Islamofascists they are. Israel was unequivocally wrong to indiscriminately slaughter civilians. Israel also has the right to act to defend itself from rocket attacks. Israel's motives are various, and some of those motives are very cynical. But the motives of Hamas are, if anything, worse.

So let's not make the mistake of confusing a correct denunciation of Israel's recent actions with support by default for Hamas. Nor to confuse the slaughter of civilians by Israel with some kind of just retribution on terrorist activity.

The reason Hamas were elected - by an overwhelming majority in one of the most scrutinised and fair democratic elections seen anywhere for a long time - was because of the widespread and justified conviction that Fatah were inextricably bound up in the corruption of the, relatively-speaking, West-orientated Palestinian Authority. Hamas had done more than any other group locally or internationally to alleviate the misery of those most severely affected by the failure and corruption of the PA. They were also opposed to the sell-out of the Oslo 'accords' which most Palestinians were vehemently opposed to at the time.

If Hamas are thugs, in this context, then what does that make the Israeli government and the US? The latter are, together, the most evil and vicious influences in the region. Hamas may be religiously fanatic on points that many of us here would equally dispute (women, homosexuality and other things) but beyond that it's altogether a different matter. Hamas was/is the democratically elected government of Palestine - destroyed and brought down by US-bakced Israeli interference because the result of the elections was not the one they wanted. Let he who has no sin cast the first stone - by that edict, we wouldn't begin to think of casting stones at Hamas for at least two centuries by the time we had dealt with the murderous activities of the the US and the UK alone. Unless or until people accept that the US and Israel are not even remotely interested in any sort of truly democratic resolution to what is happening in Palestine, then discussions like these are doomed to failure. This latest round of Israeli/US murder is about oil and geopolitical strategic advantage - rushed in sneakily while much of the west is asleep at its christmas break.

Barak Obama is of course one of the nasty little plotters in all of this - the dirty work being done before he gets into office so he doesn't appear to have blood on his hands.

Fatah have indeed been riven by ineptitude and corruption, and the election of Hamas was a democratic response to both that and the barbaric behaviour of the Israelis. There's no argument there. But I'm not a moral relativist, I don't subscribe to the idea that our morals are our morals and theirs are theirs, and that therefore we have no right to sit in judgment upon theirs. What they stand for is, in some areas, utterly contemptible, and we should stand against it. I also believe that Hamas, though democratically elected, will quash democracy, in any meaningful sense of the word, if they get their way. I can therefore unequivocally condemn Israeli barbarism AND condemn the values and authoritarianism of Hamas. It's not an either/or, which seems to be beyond the comprehension of some of us on the left (witness attitudes in the past towards Stalin, Mao, Milosevic, etc...)

I refuse, yet, to condemn Obama on this. He isn't able to speak yet, as President-elect, because he can't be seen to undermine the authority of the office of President. He has either four or eight years to attempt a just and lasting settlement in the region. I'd rather he was silent on this and yet ultimately successful than being all mouth and no trousers. He might prove to be hopelessly in hock to the Jewish-American lobby, and I will condemn him if it so turns out. But, until then, I'll keep my counsel.

Rocky wrote:

rockyracoon wrote:

Well, not being Pro-Palestinian or Isreal nor particularly au fait with all the historical and interpersonal conjugations, I can only make topigraphical comments.

I listened to Livni and other such vox pops last night. She talks about changing the equation which will make Isreal completely secure. However, she seems to see no paradox in that she is willing to make others unsecure and unable to defend themselves. Her rhetoric smacks of subjugation with no hint at compromise. As long as Isreal gets what is wants to hell with the rest of the peoples in the region. It may work in the short term but I suspect will do nothing to address the underlying problems in the long term.

Indeed Israel will never be able to secure itself by military means alone. History has shown us that it is impossible to completely defeat an insurgency movement militarily.

Well, you can - the British did it in South Africa - but you need concentration camps. Leaving aside the obvious PR problem with that, I don't think there's room for such a method in Gaza, which is essentially a great big concentration camp itself.

Hammering people with no air cover from the air and slaughtering of children is not a matter for relativity.

The leadership of the Arab regimes is to blame for this: they will not stand up for landless people.

The Warsaw Ghetto was a place in which insurgency was contained and defeated. Isolation and lack of support allowed it to happen.

toxic avenger wrote:

Aragon wrote:

toxic avenger wrote:

First, Gaza is not Palestine, it is a section of Palestine cut off from the rest. It is run by Hamas, but the West Bank is not. Hamas are nasty little theocratic thugs, but Gazans generally are not. Gazans are Palestinians, but a minority of Palestinians. The Palestinian Authority despises Hamas, both because they are a threat to their power and because they see them for the Islamofascists they are. Israel was unequivocally wrong to indiscriminately slaughter civilians. Israel also has the right to act to defend itself from rocket attacks. Israel's motives are various, and some of those motives are very cynical. But the motives of Hamas are, if anything, worse.

So let's not make the mistake of confusing a correct denunciation of Israel's recent actions with support by default for Hamas. Nor to confuse the slaughter of civilians by Israel with some kind of just retribution on terrorist activity.

The reason Hamas were elected - by an overwhelming majority in one of the most scrutinised and fair democratic elections seen anywhere for a long time - was because of the widespread and justified conviction that Fatah were inextricably bound up in the corruption of the, relatively-speaking, West-orientated Palestinian Authority. Hamas had done more than any other group locally or internationally to alleviate the misery of those most severely affected by the failure and corruption of the PA. They were also opposed to the sell-out of the Oslo 'accords' which most Palestinians were vehemently opposed to at the time.

If Hamas are thugs, in this context, then what does that make the Israeli government and the US? The latter are, together, the most evil and vicious influences in the region. Hamas may be religiously fanatic on points that many of us here would equally dispute (women, homosexuality and other things) but beyond that it's altogether a different matter. Hamas was/is the democratically elected government of Palestine - destroyed and brought down by US-bakced Israeli interference because the result of the elections was not the one they wanted. Let he who has no sin cast the first stone - by that edict, we wouldn't begin to think of casting stones at Hamas for at least two centuries by the time we had dealt with the murderous activities of the the US and the UK alone. Unless or until people accept that the US and Israel are not even remotely interested in any sort of truly democratic resolution to what is happening in Palestine, then discussions like these are doomed to failure. This latest round of Israeli/US murder is about oil and geopolitical strategic advantage - rushed in sneakily while much of the west is asleep at its christmas break.

Barak Obama is of course one of the nasty little plotters in all of this - the dirty work being done before he gets into office so he doesn't appear to have blood on his hands.

Fatah have indeed been riven by ineptitude and corruption, and the election of Hamas was a democratic response to both that and the barbaric behaviour of the Israelis. There's no argument there. But I'm not a moral relativist, I don't subscribe to the idea that our morals are our morals and theirs are theirs, and that therefore we have no right to sit in judgment upon theirs. What they stand for is, in some areas, utterly contemptible, and we should stand against it. I also believe that Hamas, though democratically elected, will quash democracy, in any meaningful sense of the word, if they get their way. I can therefore unequivocally condemn Israeli barbarism AND condemn the values and authoritarianism of Hamas. It's not an either/or, which seems to be beyond the comprehension of some of us on the left (witness attitudes in the past towards Stalin, Mao, Milosevic, etc...)

I refuse, yet, to condemn Obama on this. He isn't able to speak yet, as President-elect, because he can't be seen to undermine the authority of the office of President. He has either four or eight years to attempt a just and lasting settlement in the region. I'd rather he was silent on this and yet ultimately successful than being all mouth and no trousers. He might prove to be hopelessly in hock to the Jewish-American lobby, and I will condemn him if it so turns out. But, until then, I'll keep my counsel.

I don't argue that this is an either/or relativistic situation. Nothing is ever black and white like that. But for God's sake let us once and for all put the horrific and vicious crimes of the US and the UK over the last century right up front where this situation is concerned - let us look hardest at THEM since it is THEY who have been doing the vast majority of the murdering and invading. Hamas are responding to that aggression, they are most certainly not its perpetrators.

You may refuse to condemn Obama thus far but it is beyond doubt that the Palestinians were the sacrifical lambs on which his presidency is founded.

In 8 years Hamas have killed 20 Israelis through rocket attacks - in a single day the Israel killed 300.

Robert Fisk:

Quote :

Monday, 29 December 2008

We've got so used to the carnage of the Middle East that we don't care any more – providing we don't offend the Israelis. It's not clear how many of the Gaza dead are civilians, but the response of the Bush administration, not to mention the pusillanimous reaction of Gordon Brown, reaffirm for Arabs what they have known for decades: however they struggle against their antagonists, the West will take Israel's side. As usual, the bloodbath was the fault of the Arabs – who, as we all know, only understand force.

Ever since 1948, we've been hearing this balderdash from the Israelis – just as Arab nationalists and then Arab Islamists have been peddling their own lies: that the Zionist "death wagon" will be overthrown, that all Jerusalem will be "liberated". And always Mr Bush Snr or Mr Clinton or Mr Bush Jnr or Mr Blair or Mr Brown have called upon both sides to exercise "restraint" – as if the Palestinians and the Israelis both have F-18s and Merkava tanks and field artillery. Hamas's home-made rockets have killed just 20 Israelis in eight years, but a day-long blitz by Israeli aircraft that kills almost 300 Palestinians is just par for the course.

Full article: Link

Aragon wrote:

toxic avenger wrote:

Aragon wrote:

toxic avenger wrote:

First, Gaza is not Palestine, it is a section of Palestine cut off from the rest. It is run by Hamas, but the West Bank is not. Hamas are nasty little theocratic thugs, but Gazans generally are not. Gazans are Palestinians, but a minority of Palestinians. The Palestinian Authority despises Hamas, both because they are a threat to their power and because they see them for the Islamofascists they are. Israel was unequivocally wrong to indiscriminately slaughter civilians. Israel also has the right to act to defend itself from rocket attacks. Israel's motives are various, and some of those motives are very cynical. But the motives of Hamas are, if anything, worse.

So let's not make the mistake of confusing a correct denunciation of Israel's recent actions with support by default for Hamas. Nor to confuse the slaughter of civilians by Israel with some kind of just retribution on terrorist activity.

The reason Hamas were elected - by an overwhelming majority in one of the most scrutinised and fair democratic elections seen anywhere for a long time - was because of the widespread and justified conviction that Fatah were inextricably bound up in the corruption of the, relatively-speaking, West-orientated Palestinian Authority. Hamas had done more than any other group locally or internationally to alleviate the misery of those most severely affected by the failure and corruption of the PA. They were also opposed to the sell-out of the Oslo 'accords' which most Palestinians were vehemently opposed to at the time.

If Hamas are thugs, in this context, then what does that make the Israeli government and the US? The latter are, together, the most evil and vicious influences in the region. Hamas may be religiously fanatic on points that many of us here would equally dispute (women, homosexuality and other things) but beyond that it's altogether a different matter. Hamas was/is the democratically elected government of Palestine - destroyed and brought down by US-bakced Israeli interference because the result of the elections was not the one they wanted. Let he who has no sin cast the first stone - by that edict, we wouldn't begin to think of casting stones at Hamas for at least two centuries by the time we had dealt with the murderous activities of the the US and the UK alone. Unless or until people accept that the US and Israel are not even remotely interested in any sort of truly democratic resolution to what is happening in Palestine, then discussions like these are doomed to failure. This latest round of Israeli/US murder is about oil and geopolitical strategic advantage - rushed in sneakily while much of the west is asleep at its christmas break.

Barak Obama is of course one of the nasty little plotters in all of this - the dirty work being done before he gets into office so he doesn't appear to have blood on his hands.

Fatah have indeed been riven by ineptitude and corruption, and the election of Hamas was a democratic response to both that and the barbaric behaviour of the Israelis. There's no argument there. But I'm not a moral relativist, I don't subscribe to the idea that our morals are our morals and theirs are theirs, and that therefore we have no right to sit in judgment upon theirs. What they stand for is, in some areas, utterly contemptible, and we should stand against it. I also believe that Hamas, though democratically elected, will quash democracy, in any meaningful sense of the word, if they get their way. I can therefore unequivocally condemn Israeli barbarism AND condemn the values and authoritarianism of Hamas. It's not an either/or, which seems to be beyond the comprehension of some of us on the left (witness attitudes in the past towards Stalin, Mao, Milosevic, etc...)

I refuse, yet, to condemn Obama on this. He isn't able to speak yet, as President-elect, because he can't be seen to undermine the authority of the office of President. He has either four or eight years to attempt a just and lasting settlement in the region. I'd rather he was silent on this and yet ultimately successful than being all mouth and no trousers. He might prove to be hopelessly in hock to the Jewish-American lobby, and I will condemn him if it so turns out. But, until then, I'll keep my counsel.

I don't argue that this is an either/or relativistic situation. Nothing is ever black and white like that. But for God's sake let us once and for all put the horrific and vicious crimes of the US and the UK over the last century right up front where this situation is concerned - let us look hardest at THEM since it is THEY who have been doing the vast majority of the murdering and invading. Hamas are responding to that aggression, they are most certainly not its perpetrators.

You may refuse to condemn Obama thus far but it is beyond doubt that the Palestinians were the sacrifical lambs on which his presidency is founded.

I don't think so, the Germans and Russians leave them in the ha'penny place.

As for Obama, I'd prefer to wait and see. He's not even President yet.

toxic avenger wrote:

Aragon wrote:

I don't argue that this is an either/or relativistic situation. Nothing is ever black and white like that. But for God's sake let us once and for all put the horrific and vicious crimes of the US and the UK over the last century right up front where this situation is concerned - let us look hardest at THEM since it is THEY who have been doing the vast majority of the murdering and invading. Hamas are responding to that aggression, they are most certainly not its perpetrators.

You may refuse to condemn Obama thus far but it is beyond doubt that the Palestinians were the sacrifical lambs on which his presidency is founded.

I don't think so, the Germans and Russians leave them in the ha'penny place.

And the Chinese, of course.

ibis wrote:

toxic avenger wrote:

Aragon wrote:

I don't argue that this is an either/or relativistic situation. Nothing is ever black and white like that. But for God's sake let us once and for all put the horrific and vicious crimes of the US and the UK over the last century right up front where this situation is concerned - let us look hardest at THEM since it is THEY who have been doing the vast majority of the murdering and invading. Hamas are responding to that aggression, they are most certainly not its perpetrators.

You may refuse to condemn Obama thus far but it is beyond doubt that the Palestinians were the sacrifical lambs on which his presidency is founded.

I don't think so, the Germans and Russians leave them in the ha'penny place.

And the Chinese, of course.

Hamas really do look like small beer when compared with that lot.

There is more fighting along the Eygyptian border - yesterday Egyptian guards shot at Palestinians trying to cross, now there are fire-fights. Taking in the wounded may well mean that the Eygyptian Government finds it harder to contain the Palestinians, physically and politically, within the Gaza strip.

Quote :

29/12/2008 - 18:18:55
Egypt began taking in wounded Palestinians from the Gaza Strip today.

They were first driven to the border town of Rafah, where over a dozen Egyptian ambulances waited to move them on.

An Egyptian paramedic said he was told Egypt would take about 20 to 30 Palestinian casualties to the hospital in the Sinai town of El-Arish.

Tariq al-Mahlawi, Egypt's deputy health minister, said Egypt had received only nine cases but that there were about 150 cases in the Gaza hospital's intensive care unit who need to be transported.

"I've never seen such an attack," he said of the Israeli offensive.

Mr al-Malawi said the El-Arish hospital has 500 beds ready to treat the Palestinians.

Earlier Egypt allowed trucks with food and medical supplies to pass through the crossing.

Mustafa Ismail, an organiser with a Cairo-based charity that is part of the effort said the trucks were allowed to drop off the supplies inside the terminal but could not enter Gaza proper.

Meanwhile Palestinian gunmen and Egyptian border guards traded gunfire and an Egyptian major was killed.

Five other border guards were injured by Palestinian bullets and stones, and an eight-year-old Egyptian child was also wounded by a stray bullet.

Palestinian medical officials, for their part, said one Palestinian was shot dead by Egyptian security and four wounded.

and so this is Christmas and what have we learnt...................

that launching rockets into Israel with 30 days to go to an General Election which the Far right are favoured to win was always going to be a no-brainer - Im sure Netanyahu has already sent a crate of cigars and scotch to the Hamas Leadership already.

Hamas - Im sure are delighted - all the anti-Israelis all over the world are delighted having something to moan and get angry about.

Syria,Jordan,Iran and all the rest of the those free democratic regimes in the Middle East are delighted too - the Palestinians fulfilling their appointed role as the sacrificial social safety valves of the Middle Eastern World - gives everybody a chance to have an auld riot,demonstration and give out like fuck and takes everybodies attention away from the falling oil prices,property prices, imploding economies and stratified and fossilized social and economic failures that is the Middle East - God Bless the Palestinians and we throw a few more million shekels in the Hamas poor box to keep them in rockets and Ak-47s for another year.

When , oh when , are the Palestinian people going to grow a collective brain cell and cop on that trying to defeat Israel militarily is a total and utter waste of time - that the rest of the middle east doesn't give a shit about them - and that its a media and propaganda war that will free the the occupied territories and nothing else

I posted this thread on P.ie, but Kingkane decided it wasn't worthy of separet discussion:

Photo from the IT website:


Palestinian boys, protesting against Israel's offensive in Gaza,
throw stones at police and military vehicles in the West Bank today.
Photograph: REUTERS/Eric Gaillard



I can't help wondering- these children are venting their feelings by
throwing rocks at the security forces. What will they and kids like
them be doing in five, ten or twenty years time?

If the region is not to be dragged further into the pit of hell, and
assuming they're still around, kids like these are going to have to be
part of the solution in the future.

But how is that going to work? What grand plan does the Israeli regime
have to "win hearts and minds" of the present, nevernmind the future
generations? Yeats was almost prescient


Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity. Surely so
revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in the sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?


Is there any hope? I'm no republican, but Bobby sands words seem
aposite too: "our revenge will be the laughter of our children". What chance have these children got, and who can give them a better one?

Perhaps they'll be able to laugh when everyone is landless, and everyone has land.

The following was not written by myself, it's a C&P from an article on Liveleak.

Quote :

The Dignity, a Free Gaza boat on a mission of mercy to besieged Gaza,
is being attacked by the Israeli Navy in international waters. The
Dignity has been surrounded by at least half-a-dozen Israeli warships.
They are firing live ammunition around the Dignity, and one of the
warships has rammed the civilian craft causing an unknown amount of
damage. Contrary to international maritime law, the Israelis are
actively preventing the Dignity from approaching Gaza or finding safe
haven in either Egypt or Lebanon. Instead, the Israeli navy is
demanding that the Dignity return to Cyprus - despite the fact that the
ship does not carry enough fuel to do so. Fortunately, no one aboard
the ship has yet been seriously injured.

There are 15 civilian passengers representing 11 different countries
(see below for a complete list). At approximately 5am (UST), well out
in international waters, Israeli warships began surrounding the
Dignity, threatening the ship. At 6:45am (UST) we were able to
establish brief contact with the crew and were told that the ship had
been rammed by the Israeli Navy in international waters, and that the
Israelis were preventing the ship from finding safe harbor. We heard
heavy gunfire in the background before all contact was lost with the
Dignity.

It is urgent that you TAKE IMMEDIATE ACTION!

URGENT! Israeli Navy Attacking Civilian Mercy Ship! TAKE ACTION IMMEDIATELY!

The Dignity, a Free Gaza boat on a mission of mercy to besieged Gaza,
is being attacked by the Israeli Navy in international waters. The
Dignity has been surrounded by at least half-a-dozen Israeli warships.
They are firing live ammunition around the Dignity, and one of the
warships has rammed the civilian craft causing an unknown amount of
damage. Contrary to international maritime law, the Israelis are
actively preventing the Dignity from approaching Gaza or finding safe
haven in either Egypt or Lebanon. Instead, the Israeli navy is
demanding that the Dignity return to Cyprus - despite the fact that the
ship does not carry enough fuel to do so. Fortunately, no one aboard
the ship has yet been seriously injured.

There are 15 civilian passengers representing 11 different countries
(see below for a complete list). At approximately 5am (UST), well out
in international waters, Israeli warships began surrounding the
Dignity, threatening the ship. At 6:45am (UST) we were able to
establish brief contact with the crew and were told that the ship had
been rammed by the Israeli Navy in international waters, and that the
Israelis were preventing the ship from finding safe harbor. We heard
heavy gunfire in the background before all contact was lost with the
Dignity.

It is urgent that you TAKE IMMEDIATE ACTION!

CALL the Israeli Government and demand that it immediately STOP
attacking the Dignity and endangering the lives of its passengers!

CALL Mark Regev in the Prime Minister's office at:
+972 2670 5354 or +972 5062 3264
mark.regev@it.pmo.gov.il

CALL Shlomo Dror in the Ministry of Defence at:
+972 33697 5339 or +972 50629 8148
mediasar@mod.gov.il


BACKGROUND INFORMATION
The Dignity departed from Larnaca Port in Cyprus at 7pm (UST) on Monday
29 December, bound for war-devastated Gaza with a cargo of over 3 tons
of desperately needed medical supplies donated by the people of Cyprus.
At our request, the ship was searched by Cypriot Port authorities prior
to departure, to certify that there was nothing "threatening" aboard -
only emergency medical supplies.

TAKE ACTION IMMEDIATELY TO STOP THE ISRAELI NAVY FROM ENDANGERING THE DIGNITY AND ITS PASSENGERS!

Civilians aboard the Dignity being threatened by the Israeli military:

(UK) Denis Healey, Captain
Captain of the Dignity, Denis has been involved with boats for 45
years, beginning with small fishing boats in Portsmouth. He learned to
sail while atschool and has been part of the sea ever since. He's a
certified yachtmaster and has also worked on heavy marine equipment
from yachts to large dredgers. This is his fourth trip to Gaza.

(Greece) Nikolas Bolos, First Mate
Nikolas is a chemical engineer and human rights activist. He has served
as a crewmember on several Free Gaza voyages, including the first one
in August.

(Jordan) Othman Abu Falah
Othman is a senior producer with Al-Jazeera Television. He will remain in Gaza to report on the ongoing military onslaught.

(Australia) Renee Bowyer
Renee is a schoolteacher and human rights activist. She will remain in Gaza to do human rights monitoring and reporting.

(Ireland) Caoimhe Butterly
Caoimhe is a reknowned human rights activist and Gaza Coordinator for
the Free Gaza Movement. She will be remaining in Gaza to do human
rights monitoring, assist with relief efforts, and work on project
development with Free Gaza.

(Cyprus) Ekaterini Christodulou
Ekaterini is a well-known and respected freelance journalist in Cyprus. She is traveling to Gaza to report on the conflict.

(Sudan) Sami El-Haj
Sami is a former detainee at Guantanamo Bay, and head of the human
rights section at Al-Jazeera Television. He will remain in Gaza to
report on the ongoing military onslaught.

(UK) Dr. David Halpin
Dr. Halpin is an experienced orthopaedic surgeon, medical professor,
and ship's captain. He has organized humanitarian relief efforts in
Gaza on several occasions with the Dove and Dolphin. He is traveling to
Gaza to volunteer in hospitals and clinics.

(Germany) Dr. Mohamed Issa
Dr. Issa is a pediatric surgeon from Germany. He is traveling to Gaza to volunteer in hospitals and clinics.

(UK/Tunisia) Fathi Jaouadi
Fathi is a television producer and human rights activist. He will remain in Gaza to do human rights monitoring and reporting.

(USA) Cynthia McKinney
Cynthia is a former U.S. Congresswoman from Georgia, and the 2008 Green
Party presidential candidate. She is traveling to Gaza to assess the
ongoing conflict.

(Cyprus) Martha Paisi
Martha is a senior research fellow and experienced human rights
activist. She is traveling to Gaza to do human rights work and to
assist with humanitarian relief efforts.

(UK) Karl Penhaul
Karl Penhaul is a video correspondent for CNN, based out of Bogotá,
Colombia. Appointed to this position in February 2004, he covers
breaking news around the world utilizing CNN's new laptop-based
'Digital Newsgathering' system. He is traveling to Gaza to report on
the ongoing conflict.

(Iraq) Thaer Shaker
Thaer is a cameraman with Al-Jazeera television. He will remain in Gaza to report on the ongoing military onslaught.

(Cyprus) Dr. Elena Theoharous, MP
Dr. Theoharous is a surgeon and a Member of the Cypriot Parliament. She
is traveling to Gaza to assess the ongoing conflict, assist with
humanitarian relief efforts, and volunteer in hospitals.