The Israeli Air Attack - Hundreds Dead - Israeli Ground attack on Gaza is now under way

shutuplaura wrote:

youngdan wrote:

Can anyone tell me what is the difference between a palistinian and a jordanian

Yeah, I agree, all those darkies look the same to me too.

[Ad hominem comment deleted. KP Mod]

Hamas have a strange type of rocket, it must be made out of jelly. They have fired untold numbers of them into Israel for years and nobody ever gets killed. Fatah has the best weapons that I could afford to buy them and what are they doing, jackshit. Hezbollah has 40000 advanced missiles but they have been ordered not to shoot. This is a made for TV circus. Fools all over the world are lapping this up.

What is likely going on here is that Obama will be inaugerated and he will spout a load of nonsense that someone else wrote on a piece of paper for him. The donkey does not know Hamarse from his Hamelbow. It is a sideshow to eliminate Hamas and get UN troops into position south of Israel.

It seems that we might be seeing the beginnings of, or a precursor to, third World War here. South Ossetia was a shot across the bows. Gaza seems to be a testing ground and a lining up of forces. The whole oil producing and transit / pipelines area from the Med to the Caspian Sea and down to Pakistan is all being destabilised. The crushing of Hamas in Gaza and the population of the Gaza strip is a warning to urban populations everywhere. The biggest boom industry so far in 2009 must be tear gas.

cactus flower wrote:

It seems that we might be seeing the beginnings of, or a precursor to, third World War here. South Ossetia was a shot across the bows. Gaza seems to be a testing ground and a lining up of forces. The whole oil producing and transit / pipelines area from the Med to the Caspian Sea and down to Pakistan is all being destabilised. The crushing of Hamas in Gaza and the population of the Gaza strip is a warning to urban populations everywhere. The biggest boom industry so far in 2009 must be tear gas.

Did you read the Gillespie article at all? He argued that a war with Iran was unlikely and that a proxy war, such as the one we're witnessing , was the closest we were going to get. That's what I got out of it (coincidentally what I wanted to get out of it).

I don't see what Russia has to do with anything. You might as well have referenced Sri Lanka.

905 wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

It seems that we might be seeing the beginnings of, or a precursor to, third World War here. South Ossetia was a shot across the bows. Gaza seems to be a testing ground and a lining up of forces. The whole oil producing and transit / pipelines area from the Med to the Caspian Sea and down to Pakistan is all being destabilised. The crushing of Hamas in Gaza and the population of the Gaza strip is a warning to urban populations everywhere. The biggest boom industry so far in 2009 must be tear gas.

Did you read the Gillespie article at all? He argued that a war with Iran was unlikely and that a proxy war, such as the one we're witnessing , was the closest we were going to get. That's what I got out of it (coincidentally what I wanted to get out of it).

I don't see what Russia has to do with anything. You might as well have referenced Sri Lanka.

I posted the article because it is the only one I've seen that looks at the wider geopolitical background, and as far as the proxy war aspect is concerned, has some things in common with what I've been pointing out. There is plenty in it that I disagree with, but at least it is looking at the possible ramifications and could start off some discussion of them. I don't have time today to respond to it but will be back.

I didn't mention Russia.

What shots were you referring to in South Ossetia then? You forget that most South Ossetians were Russian citizens.

Watching the war, with coffee:



There's something deeply ironic about the comments by the Israeli woman that this is the "only solution".

She may as well have said "final solution".

cactus flower wrote:

Would you have any idea when/at what stage Fisk suggests that Hamas was Israeli-sponsored?

In discussing the Oslo agreement of 1993 in The Great War for Civilization Fisk says

Quote :

For years, the Israelis had encouraged Hamas in its building of mosques and social services as a rival to the 'terrorist' PLO and the leadership of the exiled 'super-terrorist' Arafat.

He's obviously talking about back into the 1980s even before Hamas was founded.

white phorphorous in use
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east/article5447590.ece

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/01/11/2463170.htm
[quote]At least 55 were injured by what Mr Rish says were white phosphorous
shells, banned under international law for use against civilians, but
permitted for creating smokescreens.
"These people were burned over their bodies in a way that can only be caused by white phosphorous," said Abu Rish.
His claim was echoed by Dr Muawiya Hassanein, head of Gaza emergency
services, who added that these weapons had already been used by Israel
in the Gaza offensive.

Its been possible to see this all week on the television coverage. Also vast bombs with a huge flash that have been said to be uranium tipped bunker busters.

Is it not time the Israeli Ambassador was asked to leave Ireland?

cactus flower wrote:

Its been possible to see this all week on the television coverage. Also vast bombs with a huge flash that have been said to be uranium tipped bunker busters.

Is it not time the Israeli Ambassador was asked to leave Ireland?

Yes but the protests are very small on the street

Frightened Albanian wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

Its been possible to see this all week on the television coverage. Also vast bombs with a huge flash that have been said to be uranium tipped bunker busters.

Is it not time the Israeli Ambassador was asked to leave Ireland?

Yes but the protests are very small on the street

Its a matter for government: Michéal Martin has made strong statements. I send him an email every day and I'm sure so do a lot of people.

cactus flower wrote:

Its been possible to see this all week on the television coverage. Also vast bombs with a huge flash that have been said to be uranium tipped bunker busters.

Is it not time the Israeli Ambassador was asked to leave Ireland?

I'm in two minds about this. Perhaps it would send a loud and clear message to the Israelis. However, efforts to isolate israel are unlikely to succeed given that they can more or less count on US support anyway and are unlikely to force the israeli's to engage with their critics. Perhaps Ireland should give the israeli's one of those more polite diplomatic two-fingers like a strongly worded comprehensive criticism and try to exert some influence on EU policy.

A very large delivery of US weaponry to Israel consisting of 3,000 tons of "ammunition" is scheduled to sail to Israel. The size and nature of the shipments are described as "unusual":

"Shipping 3,000-odd tons of ammunition in one go is a lot," one broker said, on condition of anonymity.

"This (kind of request) is pretty rare and we haven't seen much of it quoted in the market over the years," he added.

"Shipping brokers in London who have specialized in moving arms for the British and U.S. military in the past said such ship charters to Israel were rare. (Reuters, Jan 10, 2009)

The Pentagon has entrusted a Greek merchant shipping company to deliver the weapons to Israel:

"The U.S. is seeking to hire a merchant ship to deliver hundreds of tons of arms to Israel from Greece later this month, tender documents seen by Reuters show.

The U.S. Navy's Military Sealift Command (MSC) said the ship was to carry 325 standard 20-foot containers of what is listed as "ammunition" on two separate journeys from the Greek port of Astakos to the Israeli port of Ashdod in mid-to-late January.

A "hazardous material" designation on the manifest mentions explosive substances and detonators, but no other details were given.(Ibid)

It is worth noting that a similar unusually large shipment of US ordinance to Israel was scheduled in early December:

"Tender documents indicate that the German ship hired by the US in early December also carried a massive cargo of weapons that weighed over 2.6 million kg [2600 tons] and filled up to 989 standard 20-foot containers to Ashdod from North Carolina." (Press TV, 10 Jan 2009)

Are These Large Shipments of Ordinance Connected to the Invasion of Gaza? - [From Global Research]

shutuplaura wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

Its been possible to see this all week on the television coverage. Also vast bombs with a huge flash that have been said to be uranium tipped bunker busters.

Is it not time the Israeli Ambassador was asked to leave Ireland?

I'm in two minds about this. Perhaps it would send a loud and clear message to the Israelis. However, efforts to isolate israel are unlikely to succeed given that they can more or less count on US support anyway and are unlikely to force the israeli's to engage with their critics. Perhaps Ireland should give the israeli's one of those more polite diplomatic two-fingers like a strongly worded comprehensive criticism and try to exert some influence on EU policy.

Imo we should do both.

Sending the Ambassador home is a very serious step. Venezuela has done it so far.

Martin has already issued several very critical statements.

Its very clear that this could not be done without the US and is in part a message to Iran.

Invasion of Gaza and what it is really all about:

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/90555

soubresauts wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

People who have no direct experience of conspiracies often don't realise how close they can be to things without seeing them. I'm sure most Germans had no idea about the mass killing of Jews during WWII.

I don't think that's a good example. You haven't read Hitler's Willing Executioners by Goldhagen, have you?

All I can say is watch the movie "Downfall"... I lived in Australia during the Howard era when
they basically put refugees in concentration camps and if they failed to get asylum and couldn't be
repatriated (eg Iraqi ) told them they would have to stay in this bare desert camp for life.. including unaccompanied children....A child was treated as an adult so therefore could be locked up for life for not
know the words "i want asylum" - there was a don't ask policy....it happened to a 12 year old hazara
girl and her brother.. Being afghanis women did not speak to men without being spoken too and
it was only when a refugee lawyer visiting someone else saw her on the step with her brother waiting
quietly for the man from immigration and said "hello, what's your name" that the girl burst into tear
and told him she had be waiting for him for weeks if not months... each day she got up.. washed her
brother and sat on that step... waiting for someone to come... without a off the cuff comment it could have been years...

In australia people now justify this with .. well i didn't know...it's in the papers...it's on the web...
the end justifies the means... no it doesn't. I was there. It was visible if you wanted to see it.
But people didn't want to look past their own pockets.

ok there's only a small patch of it in the papers.. but like the woman said at the end of downfall...
for years she justified the fact that she was too young but then in berlin there is a memorial to a jewish girl who was born on exactly the same day but perished.. she reconsidered ... and knew... it was around...the signals were there ...she just didn't want to know.....

Israeli's like any nation of people, Irish included... have a obligation as a democratic society....
and as a republic to ensure that what is done in their name is something they themselves if given
absolute power would do.... And an obligation to be aware of the headlines or small sections at the
side... and ask more questions....

Knowledge is the key to justice....

Eichman the architect of the Holocot said.. this is ridiculous I didn't kill anyone

More people are killed by strokes of pens and indifference than by guns.....

Pax wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

Would you have any idea when/at what stage Fisk suggests that Hamas was Israeli-sponsored? Robin Cook said unequivocally that Al Qaeda was a creature of the CIA and that the name itself meant "data base". The use and fuelling of radical Islam by the US as a means of mobilising populations against secular democratic or soviet backed political movements is well established: division of Sunni and Shia is a bonus to them in terms of division of the Arab populations. The refusal of Israel to deal in any meaningful way with the PLO was one of the things that drove support for Hamas. It is hard to envisage that in the 1960s the arab countries were rapidly modernising states and economies, with women in minskirts and uncovered hair.

I'm not sure at what stage. "infancy" is all I could pinpoint or remember but he gave some examples on the show of Israeli IDF people (Generals I think) meeting with Hamas people and funds being provided in the early days when Israel were having real trouble with the more secular PLO.

This probably could be verified and it would tie in with Israeli policy and certainly US policy within the region.

Here's a similar example* which also ties in support for the KLA, Islamic fundi terrorists in Iran and attacking Iran from Iraq. (the article's from early 2007 mind)

Wrt my post above and how Hamas came about*, what it actually represents, what the movement is and how it does not represent an existential threat and how it is seen from the middle east.

*
video interview from the theRealNewsNetwork

Who and what is Hamas?

Eric Margolis: Hamas is more of a threat to corrupt Arab regimes than to Israel
http://therealnews.com/t/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=31&Itemid=74&jumival=3091

Quote :

Bio

Eric Margolis is a journalist born in New York City and holding degrees from Georgetown the University of Geneva, and New York University. During the Vietnam War he served as a US Army infantryman. Margolis is the author of War at the Top of the World –- The Struggle for Afghanistan and Asia is a syndicated columnist and broadcaster whose articles have appeared in The New York Times, The Wall Street Journal, The International Herald Tribune, Mainichi Shimbun and US Naval Institute Proceedings. Margolis is an expert of military affairs, a former instructor in strategy and tactics in the US Army, and a member of the International Institute of Strategic Studies and the Institute of Regional Studies in Islamabad, Pakistan. Eric Margolis' books have been published in the US, Canada, Britain, and India. He often appears and contributes to national and international news items for outlets such as CNN, ABC,CBC and Voice of America to the Wall Street Journal and Maninichi-Tokyo. He broadcasts regularly on foreign affairs for Canadian TV (TV Ontario and CBC), radio, and has appeared on ABC, CBS, CNN, and PBS

scribe wrote:

soubresauts wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

People who have no direct experience of conspiracies often don't realise how close they can be to things without seeing them. I'm sure most Germans had no idea about the mass killing of Jews during WWII.

I don't think that's a good example. You haven't read Hitler's Willing Executioners by Goldhagen, have you?

All I can say is watch the movie "Downfall"... I lived in Australia during the Howard era when
they basically put refugees in concentration camps and if they failed to get asylum and couldn't be
repatriated (eg Iraqi ) told them they would have to stay in this bare desert camp for life.. including unaccompanied children....A child was treated as an adult so therefore could be locked up for life for not
know the words "i want asylum" - there was a don't ask policy....it happened to a 12 year old hazara
girl and her brother.. Being afghanis women did not speak to men without being spoken too and
it was only when a refugee lawyer visiting someone else saw her on the step with her brother waiting
quietly for the man from immigration and said "hello, what's your name" that the girl burst into tear
and told him she had be waiting for him for weeks if not months... each day she got up.. washed her
brother and sat on that step... waiting for someone to come... without a off the cuff comment it could have been years...

In australia people now justify this with .. well i didn't know...it's in the papers...it's on the web...
the end justifies the means... no it doesn't. I was there. It was visible if you wanted to see it.
But people didn't want to look past their own pockets.

ok there's only a small patch of it in the papers.. but like the woman said at the end of downfall...
for years she justified the fact that she was too young but then in berlin there is a memorial to a jewish girl who was born on exactly the same day but perished.. she reconsidered ... and knew... it was around...the signals were there ...she just didn't want to know.....

Israeli's like any nation of people, Irish included... have a obligation as a democratic society....
and as a republic to ensure that what is done in their name is something they themselves if given
absolute power would do.... And an obligation to be aware of the headlines or small sections at the
side... and ask more questions....

Knowledge is the key to justice....

Eichman the architect of the Holocot said.. this is ridiculous I didn't kill anyone

More people are killed by strokes of pens and indifference than by guns.....

I've just read this scribe. Indifference and sometimes feeling impotent too. But in relation to Gaza, its right in front of our eyes, and its a blot on all of us if we let it go on without at least trying to do something about it.

Aragon wrote:

Invasion of Gaza and what it is really all about:

http://www.indymedia.ie/article/90555

Aragon I am copying some of this to a thread I started on Black September, which is trying to go into more depth about what has driven the attack on Gaza and what it means.

Tony Blair, Special Envoy to the Middle East, has finally made it to Gaza. He visited some refugee camps but did not have contact with any Hamas officials. He then went to Sderot in Israel (shelled during the war).

Gaza is still a prison, and there are a lot of homeless people living in tents (pouring rain there now) while building materials are not being let through the borders.