The Problems of Limerick To Be Fixed - Some Spit and Polish'll Do the Trick!!

The "Masterplan" has been unveiled admist much fanfare and backslapping. It can be downloaded here if you've got the patience of a saint: LINK

It'll supposedly cost around €3.1 billion and will take about 10 years. Initially it was supposed to take 5 years.

The one thing I like about it is that Moyross will finally get a Garda station.

I've not fully read the plan yet but I'm getting there. My blood is boiling and the feeling of disgust permeates me. That about sums up my feelings thus far about the "Masterplan."

Tossers!!

Limerick Leader article.

Find out how the folks on the ground feel here: LINK

Hermes wrote:

The "Masterplan" has been unveiled admist much fanfare and backslapping. It can be downloaded here if you've got the patience of a saint: LINK

It'll supposedly cost around €3.1 billion and will take about 10 years. Initially it was supposed to take 5 years.

The one thing I like about it is that Moyross will finally get a Garda station.

I've not fully read the plan yet but I'm getting there. My blood is boiling and the feeling of disgust permeates me. That about sums up my feelings thus far about the "Masterplan."

Tossers!!

Limerick Leader article.

Find out how the folks on the ground feel here: LINK

I'd be interested to hear more about the contents and your views Hermes. I know Limerick a small bit and have done some work in these parts of it. I read the intro and they say the right things about social regeneration. integration and education, but I can't read the whole thing tonight.

The website obviously cost a lot.

So what has you unhappy about it Hermes ? Rakes of the houses are going to be put on the open market over the ten years - people will buy them I suppose though. Maybe it doesn't look like it now but there's going to be demand in a while for them. And isn't a northern ring-road planned for Limerick too ? That might do something to give the area more value. Although where would people be going to ? Shannon is f*kt so I suppose it'll get people to Galway quicker.

What else could have been done there to enrich the community ? I've a feeling the people of the area weren't really consulted on what was needed .. big mistake.

Quote :

# Ger Says:
October 29th, 2008 at 8:00 am

3000 houses to be built in Southill and 2200 of them being sold on the open market, what a fudging joke. I assume that southill is referring to O’Malley, Keyes and Carew Park. Surely to god there are more then 800 people going to be displaced out of their houses. I wander who these 2200 people who are anxious to buy in Southill.

Also I see they want to knock a perfectly fine church, way to go wasting money again.

I've finished reading the Masterplan. I'm no happier now than when I just had the gist of it.

I'm all for the prettification of Limerick, Christ knows, it needs it. It's just that this particular plan is pie in the sky. It'll not happen in a century, nevermind in a decade.

The €3.1 billion itself is pulled from the air. This project was initially supposed to run for 5 years, this was when they started to pull down houses. That's an indication as to how much though went into costing this. Next year, Limerick Council will have €1.5 million cut from their budget and will have to find some way of raising this loss, even before they consider the devaluation of their remaining budget money caused by inflation.

A couple of days before the Masterplan was unveiled, horses roaming Moyross were rounded up. The resulting outcry had the staff of the Regeneration office in Moyross, fleeing for their lives. I don't think they've gone back there yet. I'm not suggesting I blame them. I'm saying that the problems in places like Moyross are immediate and very urgent. They don't have ten years and slapping €3.1 billion into the hands of developers wouldn't even begin to address the issues anyway.

The Gardaí are quite literally afraid to walk around Moyross. You only ever see them in squad cars. And again, I don't blame them. Yet the good people of Moyross, and that's the majority of them, have no choice but to be there. Moyross is an open-plan prison and most of those doing time there have not been sentenced.

Imagine if they spent €100 million (less than a 1/30th of the proposed cost) on policing Moyross and the other areas? You'd see the problems evaporate overnight. It's true, you'd still have scumbags, but they'd not be able to practice their trade. And the good people of Moyross and elsewhere would be able to venture outside their doors once again. They'd be able to operate residents associations etc., without fear of intimidation, injury or death.

This Masterplan is a blatant act of the hypocrites paying lipservice and slapping each others' backs. It is but an act of self-interest by and on the behalf of those who couldn't give a singular toss for the beseiged peoples of Moyross and the other prison areas of Limerick.

Do you think policing it would work for the 100 million ? You're convincing me about this as a waste of time effort and money - the percentage of people in Moyross who are citizens from Hell must be relatively small and the majority of people there decent honest, working class and other people who are besieged by corrupt scum who happen to be in a minority.

What's it with the scum of Limerick ? Are they harder than scum elsewhere ? There was a HSE bit of news this morning relating to the cost of 'housing' three of these kind of guys in a center in Limerick and it amounted to three million - check out the HSE thread. How ridiculous is that ? The center has 28 staff for these three fellas. Are they more evil than normal prisoners or something ? Three fuckers costing the state a million each per year. How much does a lethal injection cost ?

I shouldn't have said that but I did. What can be done about these people in Moyross and elsewhere Hermes ? A lot of the comments on the Limerick Blogger site came out against the scum element. They are better armed than the Army it seems.

It makes my blood boil to hear people called 'scum'.

Did you mean to ask what can be done 'for' these people in Moyross Audi, or about them? Because I believe it's a child in a million who is born into the world with the intention of becoming a scumbag.

Kate P wrote:

It makes my blood boil to hear people called 'scum'.

Did you mean to ask what can be done 'for' these people in Moyross Audi, or about them? Because I believe it's a child in a million who is born into the world with the intention of becoming a scumbag.

You must be half melted so after reading my post. Apologies if it offends you but I have no other word for these people - do you know what they do, have you seen the reports about their ilk in the papers, have you ever stood at the head of a class full of them ?

With reference to Hermes post and the Limerick Blogger comments too, some of these characters are in a minority Kate P and the rest of the people deserve something to be done 'for' them - that would be eliminating the others.

It is time to bring back the Brehan Laws. Exile them.

Do a deal with Scotland and build 2 towns on one of those islands out in the Atlantic. One at one end called Baillescum and one on the other end called Glasscum. Nothing fancy as money is tight. Exile every scumbag that commits a crime in each country and their horses with them. That would solve the crime wave and help balance the budget to boot.

Spending 3 billion is a waste and won't happen anyway

Do you think they're Travellers youngdan - maybe some of them are but I don't know - I doubt it. There's a heavy-duty criminal element there in Limerick and they are often heavily armed, feuding gangs. Have you ever heard of Travellers with that sort of firepower ?

This class of criminality exists beside the traditional poorer classes who pose a different problem - one which may be getting addressed here partially - but the other one - heavily armed criminal gangs who terrify Gardaí not to mind Mrs. O'Gara next door ...

Auditor #9 wrote:

Kate P wrote:

It makes my blood boil to hear people called 'scum'.

Did you mean to ask what can be done 'for' these people in Moyross Audi, or about them? Because I believe it's a child in a million who is born into the world with the intention of becoming a scumbag.

You must be half melted so after reading my post. Apologies if it offends you but I have no other word for these people - do you know what they do, have you seen the reports about their ilk in the papers, have you ever stood at the head of a class full of them ?

With reference to Hermes post and the Limerick Blogger comments too, some of these characters are in a minority Kate P and the rest of the people deserve something to be done 'for' them - that would be eliminating the others.

Half melted indeed!

I've met teachers from Limerick who have had guns placed casually on desks in the classroom. I've met kids who have been hijacked by criminal gangs. I've spoken to kids, parents and Gardaí from Limerick in courthouses and I've watched Limerick men get put away for years for drugs and other crimes. I'm not naive about what you so charmingly term 'that ilk.'

However, I would respectfully suggest Audi that eliminating individuals does nothing about ameliorating the conditions that allow others to spring up in their stead. One useful thing the government could do is eliminate the dole for people who don't take jobs after a period of time and under specific conditions. Kids who get into trouble are mostly undereducated, from deprived backgrounds, possibly from unstable families - etc, etc. Removing the reliance on the dole would, in my view, transform over a period of time, the lives of many kids who otherwise will grow up in families where no generation for a hundred years has held a job and so has a poor sense of social responsibility and no meas on education. There are a hundred other interventions.

Exiling or eliminating or purging society, or indeed cleansing society of the people whose needs we have failed to deal with for generations and indeed, whose problems have been to a large extent caused by poor planning and shabby local and national governance, solves nothing. Local councillors need to feel needed. If they got real and tough, life could improve immeasurably but I see them making martyrs of themselves in deprived areas across the country, playing one person's needs off another's.

Fair point about the dole and work but I'd guess there are plenty of people around the country who are long-term unemployed and don't cause that trouble. But of course I think you have a point that if the conditions are 'right' then the likes of this problem will turn up again and again. Kinda.

I've more of a feeling that this is part of human nature and needs policing - that's a Nature argument in the Nature v. Nurture debate but that's what I think. You seem to think it's purely nurture - do you ?

I am pro-gun here but Ireland is unusual in the sense that regular people are unarmed. So if a government is preventing the population from protecting itself there is a problem. So clean up these maggots as I would guess everyone knows who they are but are afraid. Bring in the legislation if necessary. Get the warrant after getting the tip from the public and exile them forever. End of story and you don't need to be scared anymore.

If they are a travelor or not makes no difference. This problem is no problem at all. The problem is people who think a scumbag is a priest who got a bad break.

Auditor #9 wrote:

Kate P wrote:

It makes my blood boil to hear people called 'scum'.

Did you mean to ask what can be done 'for' these people in Moyross Audi, or about them? Because I believe it's a child in a million who is born into the world with the intention of becoming a scumbag.

You must be half melted so after reading my post. Apologies if it offends you but I have no other word for these people - do you know what they do, have you seen the reports about their ilk in the papers, have you ever stood at the head of a class full of them ?

With reference to Hermes post and the Limerick Blogger comments too, some of these characters are in a minority Kate P and the rest of the people deserve something to be done 'for' them - that would be eliminating the others.

I honestly don't know how anyone stands at the head of any kind of a class, day in day out. I teach a class the odd time, but not in Limerick (so far).
From my experience there, and similar parts of Ireland, a very small number of people have been able to destroy the area for everyone else. I started a thread once on P.ie ( after bazooka's were found in a boot) saying that UN peacekeepers should be sent in to Limerick. (I didn't get a single reply).

Kate P wrote:

Auditor #9 wrote:

Kate P wrote:

It makes my blood boil to hear people called 'scum'.

Did you mean to ask what can be done 'for' these people in Moyross Audi, or about them? Because I believe it's a child in a million who is born into the world with the intention of becoming a scumbag.

You must be half melted so after reading my post. Apologies if it offends you but I have no other word for these people - do you know what they do, have you seen the reports about their ilk in the papers, have you ever stood at the head of a class full of them ?

With reference to Hermes post and the Limerick Blogger comments too, some of these characters are in a minority Kate P and the rest of the people deserve something to be done 'for' them - that would be eliminating the others.

Half melted indeed!

I've met teachers from Limerick who have had guns placed casually on desks in the classroom. I've met kids who have been hijacked by criminal gangs. I've spoken to kids, parents and Gardaí from Limerick in courthouses and I've watched Limerick men get put away for years for drugs and other crimes. I'm not naive about what you so charmingly term 'that ilk.'

However, I would respectfully suggest Audi that eliminating individuals does nothing about ameliorating the conditions that allow others to spring up in their stead. One useful thing the government could do is eliminate the dole for people who don't take jobs after a period of time and under specific conditions. Kids who get into trouble are mostly undereducated, from deprived backgrounds, possibly from unstable families - etc, etc. Removing the reliance on the dole would, in my view, transform over a period of time, the lives of many kids who otherwise will grow up in families where no generation for a hundred years has held a job and so has a poor sense of social responsibility and no meas on education. There are a hundred other interventions.

Exiling or eliminating or purging society, or indeed cleansing society of the people whose needs we have failed to deal with for generations and indeed, whose problems have been to a large extent caused by poor planning and shabby local and national governance, solves nothing. Local councillors need to feel needed. If they got real and tough, life could improve immeasurably but I see them making martyrs of themselves in deprived areas across the country, playing one person's needs off another's.

We havent failed anybody Kate. The only one who have are they to themselves and their families and some of the useless interfering politcians who get involved.
Remember what JFK said: Ask not what yoour country can do for you but what you can do for your country.
These people need to be punished according to their crimes. They have the right to vote and a free education and health, not to mention welfare. And yet they dont have even the slightest bit of responsibilities.
But thats their choice.
I believe in second chances but we also have to be unequivocal about crime and punishment(include white collar as well please) The state needs to be far more hardhearted then it is.

I was wondering, o philosopher of the boards, would you come to the nature-nurture debate... I do think it's mostly nurture if only because interventions that are focussed on the social and family context make such a difference.

Just the other night I had the pleasure of hearing and meeting one of the people I most admire in the world, Father Peter McVerry. He spoke about how getting people off drugs means nothing if they have to go back to the family home where someone is on drugs, can't get into a job so they're bored, get back in with the same old friends and revert to the conditions they came from. There are enormous peer pressures there and there is no longterm aftercare for addicts.

Drugs aided and abetted the decline of Limerick enormously because on the one hand you've those who ply their trade ruthlessly - think of the gangs - and on the other, you've those who are easy prey for them. If I was a bored fourteen year old in a microcosm where there is no postponement of gratification beyond ten minutes, I'd probably be on gear too. What else is there?

Good parents do sometimes have bad kids, but it's the exception rather than the rule.

UN Peacekeepers? I'm not sure about that, but you're right to suggest that some intervention needs to be put in place in the immediate term for those who have no quality of life.

One of the interesting flaws in your proposal, youngdan - apart from the fact I mentioned earlier that not dealing with the causes of the behaviour just allows more disaffection to breed, is that the residents of Moyross, Southhill, Ballinacurragh/Weston don't give tips to the Gardaí and they certainly don't give statements or evidence in court. If they did, things might be different.

What an admission of a failed state. Rome was collapsed for years before the Romans figured it out. Crime will rise as the economy sours so there is no time for pussyfooting arround.

Well I didn't last long I can tell you - I've taught Travellers (for two years) and they were a pure joy compared to these fellas. Down my way people say that 'the bad root has taken hold of that place - it's too late'. That's how people feel about these problems and I wonder how widespread that feeling is ? The liberal line towards them is there and exists but I think it needs a firmer hand (the UN - really?) and I agree with you Kate in the sense that our culture and community plays a part in this but to what extent ? I'm predicting that there will be less and less work around for the next generation unless we go back to some manual labour - which would be no harm - so if that's true what do we do ? create meaningless work out of thin air for them to do ? We'll need to be a lot more imaginative than that I'm afraid.

Yes, drugs are a huge part of it and intervention is needed. I know some of the people who work on the projects in Limerick - it's not easy at all but an effort is being made on the ground. Unfortunately I'm leaning towards youngdan's firmer hand on this - something serious needs to be done, no doubt. These people terrorise the life out of communities - it should not be tolerated.

Respvblica wrote:

Kate P wrote:

Auditor #9 wrote:

Kate P wrote:

It makes my blood boil to hear people called 'scum'.

Did you mean to ask what can be done 'for' these people in Moyross Audi, or about them? Because I believe it's a child in a million who is born into the world with the intention of becoming a scumbag.

You must be half melted so after reading my post. Apologies if it offends you but I have no other word for these people - do you know what they do, have you seen the reports about their ilk in the papers, have you ever stood at the head of a class full of them ?

With reference to Hermes post and the Limerick Blogger comments too, some of these characters are in a minority Kate P and the rest of the people deserve something to be done 'for' them - that would be eliminating the others.

Half melted indeed!

I've met teachers from Limerick who have had guns placed casually on desks in the classroom. I've met kids who have been hijacked by criminal gangs. I've spoken to kids, parents and Gardaí from Limerick in courthouses and I've watched Limerick men get put away for years for drugs and other crimes. I'm not naive about what you so charmingly term 'that ilk.'

However, I would respectfully suggest Audi that eliminating individuals does nothing about ameliorating the conditions that allow others to spring up in their stead. One useful thing the government could do is eliminate the dole for people who don't take jobs after a period of time and under specific conditions. Kids who get into trouble are mostly undereducated, from deprived backgrounds, possibly from unstable families - etc, etc. Removing the reliance on the dole would, in my view, transform over a period of time, the lives of many kids who otherwise will grow up in families where no generation for a hundred years has held a job and so has a poor sense of social responsibility and no meas on education. There are a hundred other interventions.

Exiling or eliminating or purging society, or indeed cleansing society of the people whose needs we have failed to deal with for generations and indeed, whose problems have been to a large extent caused by poor planning and shabby local and national governance, solves nothing. Local councillors need to feel needed. If they got real and tough, life could improve immeasurably but I see them making martyrs of themselves in deprived areas across the country, playing one person's needs off another's.

We havent failed anybody Kate. The only one who have are they to themselves and their families and some of the useless interfering politcians who get involved.
Remember what JFK said: Ask not what yoour country can do for you but what you can do for your country.
These people need to be punished according to their crimes. They have the right to vote and a free education and health, not to mention welfare. And yet they dont have even the slightest bit of responsibilities.
But thats their choice.
I believe in second chances but we also have to be unequivocal about crime and punishment(include white collar as well please) The state needs to be far more hardhearted then it is.

http://www.cpa.ie/publications/povertytoday/1989_PT_6.pdf

Have a look at Bride Counihan's article here. What has changed in the 20 years since she wrote it - apart from the explosion of drugs.

1200 houses with no facilities, populated largely by people on low wages or social welfare. Moyross and Southhill are each the size of a good country town. Imagine that town with no facilities.

I bet if you spoke to the mothers of Moyross, you'd know what responsibilities they have. I bet they could tell you exactly what's needed to help those communities.

You'll get no argument from me regarding the need to enforce legislation. But while we're at it, let's reform our prisons, our drug rehab facilities and come down heavily not on drug users but on suppliers.

How can they give evidence when they are afraid of getting killed. A state can only exist if it has a monopoly of force. A ruthless effort is required to get just to square one.

If a travellor baby was reared in an upscale household he would definitely turn out better but then again why is it that two brothers sometimes turn out at opposite ends.

Maybe bad eggs are just bad eggs and if they were exiled I would not dwell on them any more. The priority now is society in general and anyone that wants to study the criminals can visit them off shore.

I really think the Traveller one is a different issue - I wouldn't agree that rearing a Traveller child in a house would make them 'better' - they do seem to have a strong culture apart from ours and I think it's a pity they're not supported a bit more too. There are plenty of halting sites for them - you're familiar with halting sites youngdan ? - but I often wonder if they couldn't be left alone to camp at public wild spots around the place.

They'd be policed as well of course - dirty nappies everywhere means instant and severe punishment no matter what part of the Burren they were in - we need our tourists.

Even the best of estates in Ireland went sideways in the 1980s when the government gave grants for a deposit on a house for anyone who left their council house. Everyone with a job left. In Limerick whole streets were abandoned and were burnt out. In Cork and Limerick at a time when people needed houses houses were being knocked down the the local authorities. At the same time manufacturing jobs went. Children have grown up there not knowing anyone who worked or who completed their education.

There are good suggestions here of how to sort it out.

Kate P wrote:

Respvblica wrote:

Kate P wrote:

Auditor #9 wrote:

Kate P wrote:

It makes my blood boil to hear people called 'scum'.

Did you mean to ask what can be done 'for' these people in Moyross Audi, or about them? Because I believe it's a child in a million who is born into the world with the intention of becoming a scumbag.

You must be half melted so after reading my post. Apologies if it offends you but I have no other word for these people - do you know what they do, have you seen the reports about their ilk in the papers, have you ever stood at the head of a class full of them ?

With reference to Hermes post and the Limerick Blogger comments too, some of these characters are in a minority Kate P and the rest of the people deserve something to be done 'for' them - that would be eliminating the others.

Half melted indeed!

I've met teachers from Limerick who have had guns placed casually on desks in the classroom. I've met kids who have been hijacked by criminal gangs. I've spoken to kids, parents and Gardaí from Limerick in courthouses and I've watched Limerick men get put away for years for drugs and other crimes. I'm not naive about what you so charmingly term 'that ilk.'

However, I would respectfully suggest Audi that eliminating individuals does nothing about ameliorating the conditions that allow others to spring up in their stead. One useful thing the government could do is eliminate the dole for people who don't take jobs after a period of time and under specific conditions. Kids who get into trouble are mostly undereducated, from deprived backgrounds, possibly from unstable families - etc, etc. Removing the reliance on the dole would, in my view, transform over a period of time, the lives of many kids who otherwise will grow up in families where no generation for a hundred years has held a job and so has a poor sense of social responsibility and no meas on education. There are a hundred other interventions.

Exiling or eliminating or purging society, or indeed cleansing society of the people whose needs we have failed to deal with for generations and indeed, whose problems have been to a large extent caused by poor planning and shabby local and national governance, solves nothing. Local councillors need to feel needed. If they got real and tough, life could improve immeasurably but I see them making martyrs of themselves in deprived areas across the country, playing one person's needs off another's.

We havent failed anybody Kate. The only one who have are they to themselves and their families and some of the useless interfering politcians who get involved.
Remember what JFK said: Ask not what yoour country can do for you but what you can do for your country.
These people need to be punished according to their crimes. They have the right to vote and a free education and health, not to mention welfare. And yet they dont have even the slightest bit of responsibilities.
But thats their choice.
I believe in second chances but we also have to be unequivocal about crime and punishment(include white collar as well please) The state needs to be far more hardhearted then it is.

http://www.cpa.ie/publications/povertytoday/1989_PT_6.pdf

Have a look at Bride Counihan's article here. What has changed in the 20 years since she wrote it - apart from the explosion of drugs.

1200 houses with no facilities, populated largely by people on low wages or social welfare. Moyross and Southhill are each the size of a good country town. Imagine that town with no facilities.

I bet if you spoke to the mothers of Moyross, you'd know what responsibilities they have. I bet they could tell you exactly what's needed to help those communities.

You'll get no argument from me regarding the need to enforce legislation. But while we're at it, let's reform our prisons, our drug rehab facilities and come down heavily not on drug users but on suppliers.

Sorry to bring you on to my favourite topic but do you think localism can help? The area has no facilities because a corrupt central administration hasnt really got the interest to involve themselves enough. And neither do the voters in Dublin or Offaly or anywhere else. And really should they? Does this happen in Switzerland?
Personal responsibility to local responsibility - the irish system kills them both.

I agree Respvblica that small places should have their own democracy and budget.

There is legislation in Ireland that people can apply for a new local authority, but I think they have to have over 10,000 population. I'll check it out.


Couldn't find the legislation I was looking for, but found this fascinating account by John Horgan (1945).http://www.tara.tcd.ie/bitstream/2262/5713/1/jssisiVolXVII423_437.pdf

It is a reminder of why local authorities in Ireland are so much under the thumb of local government.

If you want to solve the problems in any area, rural or urban, where an anti-social element has taken over you have to make life extremely and visibly uncomfortable for those who break the law and visibly better for those who are trying to get on. i`d recommend the following. These are tough and in some cases they will be unfair but the greater good would be served by them, they just wouldn`t happen:

1. If you show that you have contempt for the laws of the state, say, a repeat serious crime offender, you spend your life in prison. Say if you`re caught twice for rape you should die in prison, same for a serious assualt, gun possession etc.

2. If your family are in possession of a council house and you engage in repeated anti-social behaviour you`re thrown out. If you own the house the state sells the house, you get the money and you have to leave.

3.If you puposefully disrupt the education of others at second level you`re expelled.

4. Small schools at both second level and primary level in deprived areas, nb not smaller class numbers.

5. Councils in all estates that are given budgets to spend as they fit (although they would have to account for the money). Referenda could be held within estates to determine certain issues.

6. Homework and preschool clubs to help in the development of edcuation.

7. Holiday funds to be set up by the state within schools to provide holidays for kids who are performing academically and their families.

I`ve another one to make life more difficult for criminals: If you`re convicted of membership of a gang you`re not allowed to use a phone or a car again either as a passenger or a driver. If you`re caught in a car or with a phone you serve another year in jail. It won`t stop crime but it`ll make it more difficult.

I was not joking about Brehan Law and always found it strange that schools did not teach anything about it. Check it out.