Poll: Will this Dáil see a full term? - Support for FF falls 15% (Joe Behan Resigns from the Party)

cactus flower wrote:

anmajornarthainig wrote:

Jackie Healy-Rae is a slímhín. The only good thing about him is that he`s not his idiot son.

Someone said to me today that they can see Irish politics breaking down again quickly to complete gombeen/parish pump politics, with no policy and no strategy, just a blow by blow local bid for tax spend in return for votes. Do you think that is happening, or will people demand a big solution?

Our constituencies are too small and we have too many TDs per constituency for this not to happen. Give us better local Government and make our constituencies big enough that TDs are somewhat aloof from the constituency, which is what they should be. Not entirely aloof, but they should not be as tangled to local politics.

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

Amazing they had the fuck-witidness to bin the cancer vaccine for 12 year olds. My eldest daughter is 12. And I've two more daughters of youger age. I'm hopping over this. It's 10 Million FFS.

Reading through the Estimates, some departments spend close to this on photocopy paper. Or whatever.

Time for an election lads. These fuckers have NO mandate.

Yeah it really was an incredibly stupid move. It was rolled out in Northern Ireland last week and they have put a lot of money into promoting and advertising the vaccine. Most of the population south of the border will be exposed to these ads. Our government really didn't do their homework on this.

John Gormley seems to think that it is the public's fault. Speaking to RTE he said:

Quote :

Green Party leader John Gormley has said it is very clear that the
public's trust in the Government has been eroded following 'a very
difficult Budget'.

Mr Gormley said he believed people were finding it difficult to
accept that the country was in a very difficult economic situation and
that there have been cutbacks.

He was reacting to the findings of the latest TNS/mrbi opinion poll
for the Irish Times, which indicated that support for the Government
has collapsed, with the level of dissatisfaction in the Government's
performance at 76%.

The above may be partly true, in terms of people still living in an illusion about how we are getting on. But the guy must live on the moon if he does not realise that the handling of the tough budget, as well as the tough budget itself, had an awful lot to do with it. How many U turns did we have in the space of a couple of weeks? It was as bad as letting my girlfriend choose which film we go to in the cinema.

unaligned wrote:

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

Amazing they had the fuck-witidness to bin the cancer vaccine for 12 year olds. My eldest daughter is 12. And I've two more daughters of youger age. I'm hopping over this. It's 10 Million FFS.

Reading through the Estimates, some departments spend close to this on photocopy paper. Or whatever.

Time for an election lads. These fuckers have NO mandate.

Yeah it really was an incredibly stupid move. It was rolled out in Northern Ireland last week and they have put a lot of money into promoting and advertising the vaccine. Most of the population south of the border will be exposed to these ads. Our government really didn't do their homework on this.

Can you even compare our health systems at this stage. My friends in the North call our healthcare system 'Mexico'.

Anyone want to open a thread on that vaccine ? I don't believe it's the most expensive or dangerous form of treatment - isn't a vaccine an injection of the virus that causes the cancer so that the body develops it's own immunity ? They are charging 600euros for it and I'm wondering what's the breakdown of the doctor's fee/product ? Couldn't nurses be able to do that ? Or parents ?

Do doctors hold the country by the scrotum or what ?

In most surgeries it is the nurse who does it. The cost of the vaccination will be because we get charged a huge amount more for medications here than most other countries - it is an issue which the doctors have consistently highlighted.

There are different types of vaccination, active, inactive, etc some of them give you a little bit of the disease/virus in order to create immunity, others do not. I don't know what kind this one is.

I vbelieve it had only been developed in the last 2 years so that probably explains the expense. It would probably be a good idea to give it to lads as well so they don't spread the virus.

It is only recently developed but it is costing €200 per vaccination in USA.

Zhou_Enlai wrote:

I vbelieve it had only been developed in the last 2 years so that probably explains the expense. It would probably be a good idea to give it to lads as well so they don't spread the virus.

Could they still pass it on ? They are immune but could they be carriers ?


Johnfás it's €200 for it in the U.S. ? Is there a ten-year patent or something on it so ? Really and truly our medicines are too dear here. Can you buy it over the internet and inject yourself ? Can't be that hard - diabetes sufferers do it, heroin addicts do it, cider-mainliners do it.

There would be a patent on it, that is how pharmaceutical companies make their money. You can probably get it privately up North for alot cheaper than privately down here - medicines are far cheaper up there.

People are throwing around the figure of €600 here but that is not entirely accurate. The vaccine here costs around €345 but is administered in three doses. The 600 figure was dreamt out of thin air as what it would cost to get your General Practitioner to administer it privately. Of course this is an inaccurate figure as it seems to assume that three visits to a doctor costs €250 which it does not. It costs around €50 and then there is reduced rates for a secondary of follow up visit relating to the same issue. Still expensive to go privately, coming in around €450 or so.

Simple fact though, the drug costs over 50% more here than in the States. I don't know how much it costs in the UK but obviously they all get it free anyway on the NHS, just paying the prescription charge.

Auditor #9 wrote:

Eh-up - more throwing stuff out of prams or some real juicy news this time - Micheál Martin set to resign ? In a one-line post, "truthisback" says Martin is unhappy with the direction of the party at present and intends to launch a challenge to Cowen. What's up with them all ? Are factions congealing inside the Party now - the Troika being one obvious one but who are the others ? Martin has been fierce quiet lately. Maybe he dressed up as the invisible man for Halloween ?

http://www.politics.ie/current-affairs/36850-martin-set-resign.html

I think Micheál Martin fancies his chances at getting the Fianna Fáil leadership. Brian Cowen has had a nightmarish first 6 months in the job and the stability which Ahern assiduously created has been ebbing away by the day. The government's majority has been cut in half and if the Greens can be convinced that Micheál Martin would be a better advocate of their interests(the Greens hold the balance of power in the Government) then Brian Cowen would be under some severe pressure. I wouldn't say Cowen is dead and buried given the fact that politics is a vital and changing beast and the fact that Gordon Brown has seen a huge revival in his fortunes over the Irish Sea. Cowen is down but not out. Martin is in the frame but doesn't have sure grasp on the leadership.

Did you see the news and dobbo asking Martin if it was an element of Cowen's low ratings that he was a gruff ignorant fkr from Offaly nearly ! Martin gave some soporfic answer of course.

Cowen will hardly be ousted anytime soon though. The whole government will go first. Do you really believe the Greens care who is leader ? They seem to be as happy on Planet Bertie as Meteorite Cowen as anywhere else. I think their lowering popularity is unfortunate - the country needs green policies - the EPA have given us a FAIL for our crap water quality anyway. The Greens got into government at a very inopportune moment and I hope they survive. Gogarty really seems like some oddball though with his falling over dead at a meeting in Dublin recently. He sounds as mad as meself.

Auditor #9 wrote:

Cowen will hardly be ousted anytime soon though. The whole government will go first. Do you really believe the Greens care who is leader ? They seem to be as happy on Planet Bertie as Meteorite Cowen as anywhere else. I think their lowering popularity is unfortunate - the country needs green policies - the EPA have given us a FAIL for our crap water quality anyway. The Greens got into government at a very inopportune moment and I hope they survive. Gogarty really seems like some oddball though with his falling over dead at a meeting in Dublin recently. He sounds as mad as meself.

I believe that the Greens have an interest in who becomes the leader of their partners in Government and were forced into accepting Brian Cowen as a partner as they did not have the leverage in April of this year that they do now. Fianna Fáil will be wise to the saleability of a new leader to their partners in government and since the Greens are the ones who hold the balance of power in the Dáil, the Greens will have some influence on the process.

Auditor #9 wrote:

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

Amazing they had the fuck-witidness to bin the cancer vaccine for 12 year olds. My eldest daughter is 12. And I've two more daughters of youger age. I'm hopping over this. It's 10 Million FFS.

Reading through the Estimates, some departments spend close to this on photocopy paper. Or whatever.

Time for an election lads. These fuckers have NO mandate.

Did you listen to morning ireland this morning - there's an interview with the guy who made the breakthrough originally on cervical cancer - Harald zur Hausen on the human papilloma virus' link to cervical cancer
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1113/morningireland_av.html?2448679,null,209 (does this work?)

He reckons that screening isn't sufficient and that it is calculable that people will die if the vaccine isn't administered. Did someone mention around 50 (per year?)

Lastly I read somewhere - maybe on the p.ie thread - that the biggest part of the cost of the vaccine is the doctor going into schools to administer it. Highly-paid doctors and other bastards run this country I'm afraid - it's irrelevant who sits on the left-hand side of the Chamber of the Dáil.

You've hit the nail on the head there Auditor #9 - vested interests it is.

cactus flower wrote:

Auditor #9 wrote:

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

Amazing they had the fuck-witidness to bin the cancer vaccine for 12 year olds. My eldest daughter is 12. And I've two more daughters of youger age. I'm hopping over this. It's 10 Million FFS.

Reading through the Estimates, some departments spend close to this on photocopy paper. Or whatever.

Time for an election lads. These fuckers have NO mandate.

Did you listen to morning ireland this morning - there's an interview with the guy who made the breakthrough originally on cervical cancer - Harald zur Hausen on the human papilloma virus' link to cervical cancer
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1113/morningireland_av.html?2448679,null,209 (does this work?)

He reckons that screening isn't sufficient and that it is calculable that people will die if the vaccine isn't administered. Did someone mention around 50 (per year?)

Lastly I read somewhere - maybe on the p.ie thread - that the biggest part of the cost of the vaccine is the doctor going into schools to administer it. Highly-paid doctors and other bastards run this country I'm afraid - it's irrelevant who sits on the left-hand side of the Chamber of the Dáil.

You've hit the nail on the head there Auditor #9 - vested interests it is.

Its because of Targetting. If you are strong or belong to an imporatant lobby group you can get what you want so long as you can target a particular concentration of power - a politcian. Humans as individuals are weak. If the power is dispersed then targets can no longer be easily identified.

I was never good at maths, so the way the majority gets screwed over by minorities never ceases to amaze me.

Respvblica wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

Auditor #9 wrote:

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

Amazing they had the fuck-witidness to bin the cancer vaccine for 12 year olds. My eldest daughter is 12. And I've two more daughters of youger age. I'm hopping over this. It's 10 Million FFS.

Reading through the Estimates, some departments spend close to this on photocopy paper. Or whatever.

Time for an election lads. These fuckers have NO mandate.

Did you listen to morning ireland this morning - there's an interview with the guy who made the breakthrough originally on cervical cancer - Harald zur Hausen on the human papilloma virus' link to cervical cancer
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1113/morningireland_av.html?2448679,null,209 (does this work?)

He reckons that screening isn't sufficient and that it is calculable that people will die if the vaccine isn't administered. Did someone mention around 50 (per year?)

Lastly I read somewhere - maybe on the p.ie thread - that the biggest part of the cost of the vaccine is the doctor going into schools to administer it. Highly-paid doctors and other bastards run this country I'm afraid - it's irrelevant who sits on the left-hand side of the Chamber of the Dáil.

You've hit the nail on the head there Auditor #9 - vested interests it is.

Its because of Targetting. If you are strong or belong to an imporatant lobby group you can get what you want so long as you can target a particular concentration of power - a politcian. Humans as individuals are weak. If the power is dispersed then targets can no longer be easily identified.

That's an interesting one Respvblica - I wonder have FF stretched themselves over too many pies ? And now they are so thin they are tearing easily with any tug or shove.

Concentrating power - that's the interesting bit. Shouldn't we have regional governments and a 'Federal' seat where the regionals decide on what's best for the country as a whole and decisions could not be made without consent of all the regionals or maybe not even regional governments but larger city councils like Cork, LImerick, Galway, Sligo etc.? That's a bit theoretical but isn't that kinda what happens with the Autonomias in Spain ? I'm not so familiar with governance over there at all though.

Auditor #9 wrote:

Respvblica wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

Auditor #9 wrote:

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

Amazing they had the fuck-witidness to bin the cancer vaccine for 12 year olds. My eldest daughter is 12. And I've two more daughters of youger age. I'm hopping over this. It's 10 Million FFS.

Reading through the Estimates, some departments spend close to this on photocopy paper. Or whatever.

Time for an election lads. These fuckers have NO mandate.

Did you listen to morning ireland this morning - there's an interview with the guy who made the breakthrough originally on cervical cancer - Harald zur Hausen on the human papilloma virus' link to cervical cancer
http://www.rte.ie/news/2008/1113/morningireland_av.html?2448679,null,209 (does this work?)

He reckons that screening isn't sufficient and that it is calculable that people will die if the vaccine isn't administered. Did someone mention around 50 (per year?)

Lastly I read somewhere - maybe on the p.ie thread - that the biggest part of the cost of the vaccine is the doctor going into schools to administer it. Highly-paid doctors and other bastards run this country I'm afraid - it's irrelevant who sits on the left-hand side of the Chamber of the Dáil.

You've hit the nail on the head there Auditor #9 - vested interests it is.

Its because of Targetting. If you are strong or belong to an imporatant lobby group you can get what you want so long as you can target a particular concentration of power - a politcian. Humans as individuals are weak. If the power is dispersed then targets can no longer be easily identified.

That's an interesting one Respvblica - I wonder have FF stretched themselves over too many pies ? And now they are so thin they are tearing easily with any tug or shove.

Concentrating power - that's the interesting bit. Shouldn't we have regional governments and a 'Federal' seat where the regionals decide on what's best for the country as a whole and decisions could not be made without consent of all the regionals or maybe not even regional governments but larger city councils like Cork, LImerick, Galway, Sligo etc.? That's a bit theoretical but isn't that kinda what happens with the Autonomias in Spain ? I'm not so familiar with governance over there at all though.

The autonomias help to an extent but they have become like local fiefdoms and rife with corruption(though not as bad as before when it was centralised). I believe that this is due to the fact that they use the list system of PR. The mayor of Alicante resigned(property corruption) after being elected last year and appointed his successor, a lady just out of her 20s. I mean who is she? What has she done before?
So while devolution helps, the real solutiuon is more democracy.
As humans we can be great but even the best of us can have a bad day. At some stages we need to give individuals responsibility in governance, but if they fall foul of interest groups, they should be put up against the wall(not literally but you know what I mean). We are too soft on our leaders. We are also allowing them far too much leeway for our own good.

Ah how's Alicante ? I went through there once, got drunk in Benidorm and slept on the beach in a corner. I thought Benidorm was cool but Valencia had the class.

Squire I think has hinted at the idea of 'contracting' politicians then firing them if they don't work - I've had this idea myself before so I think it's a good one. If the public were more aware of infrastructural issues then it might be quite easy to shape some contracts like this. For example, on water again I feel it's a disgrace that some counties are responsible for losing up to 60% of water through leakages. This happens in Kilkenny I believe. Indeed water quality in general - maybe our politicians should fall foul of EU Directives if they don't sort the shit out, literally. Stuff is getting pumped into lakes and rivers and stuff seeps into ground water. Can you imagine this happening in Spain ? We'll burn if there's an afterlife for what we're doing to this country.

But maybe that's it - Europe I believe has to play a stronger role in local matters - on some level. They should be responsible for auditing us in how we abuse our externalities like 'free' water and also that we rely too much on imported energy and should be getting the finger out on that front.

There are probably two hundred more things to do with the environment that directly affect our lives because it's infrastructural and tied straight to utilities which we use and need everyday - water, energy, nature, education. food. If Governments don't pass their Leaving Cert then they leave.

That does sound a bit fascist though.

Auditor #9 wrote:

Ah how's Alicante ? I went through there once, got drunk in Benidorm and slept on the beach in a corner. I thought Benidorm was cool but Valencia had the class.

Squire I think has hinted at the idea of 'contracting' politicians then firing them if they don't work - I've had this idea myself before so I think it's a good one. If the public were more aware of infrastructural issues then it might be quite easy to shape some contracts like this. For example, on water again I feel it's a disgrace that some counties are responsible for losing up to 60% of water through leakages. This happens in Kilkenny I believe. Indeed water quality in general - maybe our politicians should fall foul of EU Directives if they don't sort the shit out, literally. Stuff is getting pumped into lakes and rivers and stuff seeps into ground water. Can you imagine this happening in Spain ? We'll burn if there's an afterlife for what we're doing to this country.

But maybe that's it - Europe I believe has to play a stronger role in local matters - on some level. They should be responsible for auditing us in how we abuse our externalities like 'free' water and also that we rely too much on imported energy and should be getting the finger out on that front.

There are probably two hundred more things to do with the environment that directly affect our lives because it's infrastructural and tied straight to utilities which we use and need everyday - water, energy, nature, education. food. If Governments don't pass their Leaving Cert then they leave.

That does sound a bit fascist though.

Alicante has grown a lot. As to whter there was a lot of controversy about diverting teh waters of the Ebro to feed the gowing towns (and golf courses) of the mediteranean region of which Alicante is teh centre point. The Socilaists took up teh cause of the people of Aragon(Ebro region) in protesting about this and did well in Aragon but have lost heavily in Valencia and Murcia.
INteresting idea aboiut firing governments. Having the EU as an auditor is not a bad idea and I think they do to an extent although it will inevitably generate a lot of bureaucracy.

What you`re arguing for their lads is an end to democracy. You`re taking control away from the people over their own government. What I would like to see is that if it can be proven that you lied in your election manifesto, ie promised things that you couldn`t possibly deliever, that you would lose your seat. You`ve won it as a fraud, in effect. That would force people to be more honest in pledging things prior to elections.

anmajornarthainig wrote:

What you`re arguing for their lads is an end to democracy. You`re taking control away from the people over their own government. What I would like to see is that if it can be proven that you lied in your election manifesto, ie promised things that you couldn`t possibly deliever, that you would lose your seat. You`ve won it as a fraud, in effect. That would force people to be more honest in pledging things prior to elections.

Who would remove you and how would it be democratic?

The first part of that post was in reference to a previous poster suggesting that a domestic government could be removed by Europe on the basis that it wasn`t doing it`s job correctly. I`d have serious issues with anything of the sort. That would be undemocratic.

My suggestion would be, to promote better government, that if it had been proven that politicians had lied in their election manifestos in order to gain votes that they would foreit their seats. You can do so for being bankrupt why not for winning a seat by fraud which is in effect what vote-buying is.

How do you objectively prove that though? It is the nature of politics that you cannot deliver everything. Surely we want our politicians to be aspirational. If you were going to enforce a system like that how would a politician ever take a risk like establishing a National Health Service or Universal Education? How do you differentiate between a promise which is not deliverable because of an unforeseen event and an out and out lie. It all seems fairly subjective. Who would then be the arbitrar of this system, the courts? That would be a breach of the separation of powers.

Why shouldn`t politicans be subject to the scrutiny that a tradesman or a businessman would be. Should a plumber be entitled to get a contract on the basis that he told customers "Yes I can fix that" when in reality he knew he couldn`t. Politics is inspirational but there is a difference between saying that you will definitely deliver something and saying that you will try to deliver it. Also politicians have a duty to act responsibly during election time and research their manifestoes properly rather than engaging in a dutch auction which is what has happened in the last couple of elections with governments spending wildly, promising more only to withdraw promises afterwords. The oppostion would have been equally culpable. if it can be proven that you had access to information that you chose to disregard because it didn`t suit what your spin then I`d suggest your seat should be void and a by-election held. If voters want to vote for you againi that`s there perogative. I`d suggest an ethics body to examine all aspects of political life. It could be made up of judges, supreme court or whatever. Concerned citizens could take a case to it after they`ve collected x number of signatures of citizens or members of the Oireachtas.