Machine Nation mods agenda against Libertas

Hey guys,

I'm just wondering if the Machine Nation moderators have an inherent agenda against Libertas based on the private discussion section of this site, and also the (simple error I'm sure) ommission of the Libertas site from the list of Lisbon links on the homepage.

Are the MN mods compromised?

Thoughts?

Hello David,

Libertas haven't published a guide to the Treaty. If they did, it would be among the summary guides listed on the right.

There is no agenda against Libertas. There are several public threads on Libertas here.

The mods are not compromised. But thank you for asking.

Chill out there Davey boy. Have you not got enough to be doing than coming on here giving out. Tabhair seans do shíocháin

So Kate P, the private section of the site where you and a handful of others are discussing (criticising) Libertas - why is that not in the open?

David, thanks for opening that thread.

As an undecided and fairly removed observer of the debate so far I can tell you that I certainly have no agenda against Libertas nor I think will you find too much overt opinion against them visible on the site so if there is a strong private group discussion with a negative opinion on Libertas then I think that is in your favour .

I think our mods here will readily disclose that I have questioned why the Libertas site hasn't been linked and their response has been as Kate's above... Sorry I don't have a stronger opinion on that but I think there is an argument for putting the Libertas link there.

One last thing, I heard John McGuirk today for the first time on radio urging a NO vote. And the only other times I've heard about the Lisbon debates going on around the country were through P.ie (and maybe once in a newspaper). Have I not been paying attention to posters showing the debate times and venues or what? Shouldn't my local TDs Pat Breen and Timmy Dooley and Co. not have been sending me the advance agendas of meetings over the last while but instead I got Christmas cards and calendars. Thanks for the democracy lads

But I think there is an argument for linking to the Libertas site here.

DavidC wrote:

Hey guys,

I'm just wondering if the Machine Nation moderators have an inherent agenda against Libertas based on the private discussion section of this site, and also the (simple error I'm sure) ommission of the Libertas site from the list of Lisbon links on the homepage.

Are the MN mods compromised?

Thoughts?

Machine Nation members are entitled to private threads as are Politics.ie members.
There is open discussion of Libertas on this site that you are welcome to join in. This site has a focus on discussing policy in some depth. Your replies to the issues raised on the open threads would be a valued part of the ongoing debate.

DavidC wrote:

So Kate P, the private section of the site where you and a handful of others are discussing (criticising) Libertas - why is that not in the open?

You have a lot of posts on this site and I can't read any of them bar 2 on this page. Who is the privateer?
Whatever grown adults want to do in private should remain private as long as it doesn't scare the horses.

SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:

Chill out there Davey boy. Have you not got enough to be doing than coming on here giving out. Tabhair seans do shíocháin

A fair question was posed Seathrún, don't you think?

Auditor #9 wrote:

SeathrúnCeitinn wrote:

Chill out there Davey boy. Have you not got enough to be doing than coming on here giving out. Tabhair seans do shíocháin

A fair question was posed Seathrún, don't you think?

I would be very surprised if anyone had a problem with a link with the Libertas site. Perhaps if the "Political parties" forum was changed to a "Political movements" forum, Libertas site could be linked to there.

There is great interest in the Referendum on the site, and on Libertas per se. The link would be handy.

The site is obviously at an early stage of development and stuff is being added continually.

Maybe the best thing to do is firstly title that section as Lisbon summaries/guides.

Then open a separate section below that, perhaps for organisations like Libertas, the People's Movement, PANA, and other organisations.

Maybe EVM could look into it if he's around later - or do your skills stretch to that Audi?

I've a better suggestion, though my skills stretch to that (ArdT promised he'd organise those links into meaningful clusters and I'd code them in) Why doesn't DaveC use the Politics forum to present Libertas there? There is a section on Manifestos and Your Party and as an anarchist I see no distinction between a party and a group except that they should all be swept away in a rain of fire muhaahaa

Seriously, you are perfectly welcome to open a thread there and advertise all you may about Libertas.

I've detected no particular animus against Libertas here. Hard to see what the big deal is.

Hi Dave.

I have no issue with Libertas either, any more than I have with any other political party or campaign group.

In fact, I applaud any group who come together to make a democratic stance for what they believe in.

Other than, just to say I don't even know how I'm going to vote yet, although I am leaning towards the NO camp still. As I stated on another thread here, I have quite a bit of reading to do on the subject before I can conscientously put pencil to paper.

Neither do I have an issue with linking to Libertas from here, although the whole idea was to link to summaries/guides, rather than a plain website link.

I agree with the others that you are most welcome to post Libertas policy/announcements here.

WorldbyStorm wrote:

I've detected no particular animus against Libertas here. Hard to see what the big deal is.

Certainly I agree. There is no shared agenda here. I am deeply opposed to the Libertas exercise as it appears to attempt to manipulate people's genuine fears and instinctive reluctance to move from national to european governance. In my opinion the political agenda of Libertas appears to be (as suggested by Declan Ganley) to build a pan-European party of an Atlanticist, neo con type. I would welcome a link to the Libertas site and a debate on Declan Ganley's anti Islamic diatribe "Fall of Troy".
However I am not aware of anyone else on the site sharing my views.

Is there a link to Machine Nation on either Politics.ie or indeed on the Libertas site?

I'm not suggesting that quid pro quo is a necessity. I'm saying that Dave would be demonstrating from a solid platform if this were the case. Libertas exists to do a lot more than get a 'no' vote in the referendum. If Libertas' cards are all on the table, no problem with the link. If this is not the case, then I'd have a problem with advertising an unknown. I'm not advancing an opinion on Libertas either way, I know very little of substance about them.

I dislike the idea of publishing links just cause we were told to do so or criticised for not doing do. I'd prefer to hear a substantive reason as to why such a link ought to exist, rather than a sparse criticism regarding its absense.

For the record, I've taken no part in any discussions about Libertas on this site, private or otherwise.

I'm pro no but certainly not pro-libertas. I'd rather lend my ear to elected representatives than Goldsmith types who seem not to believe in engaging with people who have obtained a mandate.

Hermes wrote:

Is there a link to Machine Nation on either Politics.ie or indeed on the Libertas site?

léirítear 'machinenation' mar ******* ar p.ie
'machinenation' is put in as a curse word thing that turns it into a load of *******'s on p.ie

Good points Hermes.. I haven't discussed Libertas on any of the threads but from what I've seen I don't think there's any bias or anything.... a slight bit of paranoia I'd imagine... I also agree that Libertas shouldn't be linked just because of what Dave has said here.... By all means link to them if they provide anything valuable to the reader regarding the treaty as per the whole point of the links in the first place..... but I have to say I don't like the idea of Machine Nation mods (who are doing a brilliant job, by the way) being bullied into doing something... which is what'd be happening should the site be linked as a knee-jerk reaction to this thread.

Quote :

By all means link to them if they provide anything valuable to the reader regarding the treaty as per the whole point of the links in the first place..... but I have to say I don't like the idea of Machine Nation mods (who are doing a brilliant job, by the way) being bullied into doing something... which is what'd be happening should the site be linked as a knee-jerk reaction to this thread.

I take your point, Buachaillbeo - and the compliment - thank you.

The links that are posted here on the right hand side of the portal/latest discussion page were added as a response to a poster looking for unbiased information as a way of getting into the meat of the treaty without having to read the document itself which is not reader friendly.

Those links came from a post by ibis made initially on p.ie.

Now that that need has been met, there is no reason at all why we can't put up links to organisations that are either pro or anti- treaty as well. If people have ideas or links, they can post them here or to the Editorial Team who are under a group heading on your pms and we'll sort out the technology.

Whether they provide anything valuable to the reader or not is not for us to decide - but if we can link the material, we certainly will. We might even start a discussion forum by looking at some of the material - maybe a guide or two first, for Lisbon virgins who are intimidated by the wealth of previous knowledge that some posters have about the EU and the Treaty and may be put off getting involved in discussion but still want to make an informed decision. Something like the bookclub, perhaps.

So rather than feeling we're being bullied into just adding a Libertas link, you could consider we are being spurred into adding a selection of links from different perspectives which can only be a useful resource for all posters.

That could include, IBEC, PANA, People's Movement, Libertas, IFA and the parties.

All ideas are welcome.

I'd be very keen on that - I meant to do such a roundup on p.ie, but have been somewhat distracted.

My original reason for accepting the decision to take the Libertas thread private was to avoid exactly the situation that has now arisen anyway - which is to say, Dave coming over here and giving out every time he sees something he doesn't like written about Libertas, threatening libel left right and centre.

Libel is not decided on the basis of like or dislike. If I state something about Libertas, and what I state is true, it is not libel, no matter how much Libertas, or Dave, prefer it not to be said.

I have no anti-Libertas agenda except insofar as they are promoting a No vote by means I consider underhand - trying to drag abortion into the debate - but I object strenuously to being bullied.

What harm is there in putting a link to Libertas. I am going to check them out as I am confused now. Are the against the treaty but yet pro European, if I follow what Cactus is saying about ganley, who ever he is,.

youngdan wrote:

What harm is there in putting a link to Libertas. I am going to check them out as I am confused now. Are the against the treaty but yet pro European, if I follow what Cactus is saying about ganley, who ever he is,.

Against the Treaty gey Pro American and pro Iraqi war.

I would like to here what you think of their website - Google The Libertas Institute.

It will be a while but I will have a good look and maybe have an idea Tuesday.

youngdan wrote:

It will be a while but I will have a good look and maybe have an idea Tuesday.

You could look up Rivada Networks as well - more US based, but be carefull posting that you are sure of facts - touchy people.

M'anam nach muidne atá íogarach!