Machine Nation - towards a mission, meaning, ethos (e) (Sec Council)

Have to have some coffee first
Ah, lovely coffee.

I'm going to immediately refer to cactus's post HERE or at least the beginning of it where she is talking about the general tenor of the site and in particular about the sharing of knowledge being one of the bases of the site. I doubt if any of the five of us would disagree on that. This simplifies a lot of the other work I think (why didn't we write this first ) in that now we have a purpose for the site and there are boundaries laid down that are clear: playing the ball not the man is part of what the site is fundamentally about. It is easier to do this (play the ball) when there is a science, engineering or infrastructural theme involved - all serious parts of politics which in my opinion do not get emphasised enough, another reason for some permanence for this site, now that it is beginning to shake off its life-raft status from Refuge days.

So what should a user get out of MN? Not just scientific or engineering debate alongside politcs as an important part of the substance of the site but they should feel they are inside an approach which is as objective as possible but I wouldn't go parading this around as a central tenet of the site - it's too boring. As it happens, the five of us I think tend to be objective individuals and this should be enough to promote that ethos of balanced, mature, considered and informed debate. And when we have that all-essential ire, bile or spew which HAS TO emerge at one point or another then it is often with us expressed tenderly in humour, profundity, conviction, homeliness or genuine [i'm looking for a word which means 'deep sense of injustice']. We've already pulled each other up on a few occasions - Kate has hit me with a stick when I wanted to go bitching with Riadach, EVM got hit with a stick, ibis has been grumbled at for his approach to youngdan and a now we need to find cactus and kate slip up only to pounce ..

I think the five of us can give good example and create a very attractive atmosphere here which could be a huge draw for posters (and a couple of us are thinking prominent enough individuals too) which will survive time and technology if it has to. So, machines are only a part. And it has been a good project up to now and long may it continue ... and of course, it's a non-party-political broadcast site, I'm sure you've gathered that. At best I would hope it to be as much a reference for other sites as well - sort of a super-site... these exist on the net and I'm going to include them here as part of 'projects' which may come up in future. Yes, projects, sometimes involving the real world if at all possible. Having something like that - a future date for a project could get individuals more involved too and a lot of it could be done online. I don't know what form such projects could take but there would be a spirit of research involved. Some might be wholly on the net, others in software, others in the actual world involving solar-panelling your home or even just your laptop or sharing knowledge about converting your diesel to burn veg oil or whatever. Hell, good receipes are one of the first technologies we can have - god bless the poor (?) Italians for inventing lasagne all those years ago!

I would envision other academic projects too which might attract student types here - already Brandubh has been poking around in the History section in a small way, hence keeping knowledge of the past in front of our eyes on a daily basis. I'd like to maybe get the best resources on a historical figure here too and compose a thread on them wikipedia style. I know it's done already in wiki but you can never overdo a good thing. Anyway the figure might have a particular significance for the thrust of the site so it would contribute to the tenor of the place. I'm thinking of Michael Faraday at the moment about whom I haven't read that much. I might start a piece on him (he is one of those responsible for the 20th century - i.e. he was instrumental in electricity and motors). I have yet to bang out how exactly the shape these items could take so when you are in the mood please add your thoughts, feelings, ideas, dreams, visions, ambitions, independent if necessary from this post to which I'm going to push the send button now I've been writing it for half an hour do I really need to proof-read it ..?

your thoughts ...

(more later from me I'm sure)

Auditor #9 wrote:

Have to have some coffee first

If you replaced the coffee with tea, that might describe our ethos very well

Auditor #9 wrote:

Nam et ipsa, scientia potestas es

(there's a few ts in that)

and lastly before I head for the wild blue yonder, this space is as much for the four other people here to fashion it as they wish - use your own imaginations let your thoughts dreams visions flow... I think we should try the experiment of making MN a net-personality all of itself - composed of five at least main people mashed together .

There should be also a broader content team here too later possibly maybe but this core of Five should do for the moment

yours

That was quite a start, Auditor. I think technology and scientific knowledge is going to be very important in trying to get our species to dig ourselves out of the hole that technology in part has dug us into. Even people with no specific science or technology interest are getting a bit into posting on wind energy and Cern for example. In the main, our standard of many posters (me too) is not very strong because discussions go on without anyone having the readily available answers. A few science people posted once on a thread on P.ie called I think Open Science: this was about how research results are not being changed into products because of a number of things we are not doing right in Ireland ( also applies to the US). I had hoped they would stick around to explain Cern to me but they drifted. I wonder if we were to invite them and re-open the Open Science debate here would they be interested? Perhaps that could be something to have some kind of event on.

The internet - created originally for sharing scientific information - is tending to 'close down' open sharing and sites instead of being free are charging for access to research findings. This is something that needs to be resisted.
My bugbear Ganley ( I am starting to sound weird even to myself on this one) employed a friend of Bush's who had been on to the "wrong side" of the Internet argument - there is an interesting video of a debate in the US showing him totally losing it in a seminar on this issue.

Is there any good open forum in Ireland for scientists/researchers already up and running and if so, what do they cover?

Just a bit about my feelings about ethos and content.
I would like this to continue to develop as a site for debate, investigation and sharing knowledge. I hope it will have a 'heavy weight' end to itself in terms of debate as well as the really enjoyable aspects of cooking, gardening, poetry, music, places and Irish language that have begun to emerge.
I agree that it should be a site in which there are events, as well as ongoing day-to-day fora. Events could be debates, plebiscites, parties and celebrations, games and contests and a lot more things. I think events can be a very good way of giving the site the right identity and getting the interest of more good posters, as well as being a good think in themselves.

Hermes said

Quote :

Balance, in my opinion is the key to success. A commitment to upholding the good name of others and indeed a commitment to facilitating members of our community so that they will not have to pull their punches, will guarantee an important forum and a strong community.

I think that is great, as an ethos for running the site. I think he is talking about having a site that provides a reputable forum for honest and open debate. Wunderbar.

BTW, is there any way we can get the time changed on the site? Someone might sue us for missing an appointment.

I think there is a tendency for people to be most comfortable here (maybe I'm transferring) when we're getting our hands dirty with the hows and whys rather than the whats.

I love it.

There were lots of threads started about philosophies of politics, religion, economics, technology... I think the site's most faithful advocates have an interest in how their stuff works and want people to learn as well as discuss.

Maybe we're a site for higher level thinkers? (or wannabe higher level thinkers?)

Auditor, didn't you say you had the opening line for a charter in your head - was it about the ethos.

I sent a pm to Brandubh today with an idea I have that might tie in with the philosophy of this place and might encourage posters to hang around a bit more for some more content and analysis.

I'll add it here for your perusal.

First of all I don't want the site to be only about science and tech but I think it is a bit of a niche that needs to be filled - something ibis and I agreed on the day p.ie reopened and we were left wondering what would become of this place...

But as Kate says, people feel comfortable here - ibis included and it looks like hiker zhou and hermes and lostexpectation have made it their business to come here regularly along with the other faithfuls 905, youngdan, seathrún and the butterflies riadach, brandubh (although he's been appearing more on a day-to-day basis lately, hope I haven't scared him off with my pm asking him for important years in the period 1200 - 2000 which marked revolutionary change in the world .

So, though I think a great selling point would be accessible (v. important) facts and figures and science, that would be at least only one point on the five-pointed star above associated with this place... what other arms of the starfish could we incubate, foster, cultivate?

Think about it but I think the next thing we do once the mod shite is sorted is to open this thread up to the likes of Hermes Zhou and the others who seem to have taken to it with a bit of zeal. It would mean creating a wider Content group which would be a private forum I suppose - this is something we should think about anyway. What do ye think?

Auditor #9 wrote:

Kate P wrote:

Auditor, didn't you say you had the opening line for a charter in your head - was it about the ethos.

I sent a pm to Brandubh today with an idea I have that might tie in with the philosophy of this place and might encourage posters to hang around a bit more for some more content and analysis.

I'll add it here for your perusal.

I think cactus already has a draft of the opening line - its the stuff about the openness to learning etc. Let's go for that will we? There's a psychic connection there (great minds) which is a good sign... We're teachers half of us after all.

Hi,

I have an idea - I haven't run it by Audi or EVM yet, but I think it might work. And I think you might be someone to whom my bright idea might appeal...

What would you think of having a thread all to yourself where you could - uninterrupted - write about the aspects of history that you are interested in. You seem to have so much knowledge about so much that is fascinating and the cut and thrust of a regular thread might be the ideal place to develop a discussion around something you'd raise in your 'blog'.

I'd see it as a bit of a blog, where you could post a piece as long or short as you wanted about something of interest - whether it's Irish aviation history, 1916 or whatever. The rest of us would be able to read it and then respond on another thread if we wanted to. You could then add or subtract from your post and in your next post deal with something else entirely - like a blog. The edit feature would allow you to return to something you'd done previously.

I think that this place is for philosophers, in a way. It would allow you to build up a history blog if you wanted, it would educate and inform the rest of us and still provide the impetus for discussion - the latter is all that a discussion board currently allows. There's scope here for development of ideas, not just arguing points. There's scope for delving into the 'whys' and 'hows' - which I think is an interest of yours - not just the nitty gritty of details and the 'whats'.

Would someone such as yourself like a thread of your own? I'd be interested in your view before I run it by Audi.

I hope all's well.

KP

I sent this to Brandubh today - and he's interested. And I think it would tie in with the philosophy you've expressed here, Auditor. What do you think EVM?

I think we're all about how things work.

Auditor #9 wrote:

kate that's great ! we're on a bit of a brainstorm today alright and it's not at all unlike what came into my head earlier re. classifying threads and having different breeds of thread. Afterwards someone can go back for reference without wading through loads of random posts which just pop in. If we could encourage that we'd have two types (I don't know how other boards operate) and you are so right - discussion boards limit themselves so much - look at p.ie - there is loads of content but it's messy while something like the above would organise it a bit more - once you got the right balance ...
I think we're all psychic/synchronised today..

I think there's scope for a forum that keeps all these blog things together - maybe AT would do one about architecture or economics, EVM about tecchie stuff, Riadach about the role of Irish. Or as mods in their own forums they could have their own thread there. Just one, I think with only themselves having access to it - and an outside mod if you all think it's necessary.

In fact, any poster at all could have one if they were kept in a special forum - and they'd have a reason to buy into the site (might bring cookie back - is that very cynical? It wasn't the initial motivation...)

Auditor #9 wrote:

What kind of feedback has brandubh given you? anyone interested in merle haggard or does he belong on p.ie ? or sidewinder ? and this weeks guest shit-stirrer or firebrand of the week is ..!!

He didn't give much feedback except to say he'd be interested. Should we stick with our own lot first and get that going - we owe them that, I think...

Auditor #9 wrote:

Kate I'm not trying to get out of working I swear but I think the mission statement should evolve a little later and should be contributed to by as many here as possible ...

I'll happily work on a general outline now though but I hate doing it on my own...

Will you start with a couple of lines about the MN philosophy? I think we've all communicated to you what we feel - and we'll be with you all the way as you put together your general outline.

'You are not alone...'

Then - or now if you prefer - if you want to work on it together, we can do that on the ethos thread and post as we go. How's that?

Auditor #9 wrote:

Ok you definitely want to start the ethos bit first don't you?

Why don't we put something rough here or elsewhere ( let's give ourselves 10 mins !) and then from that I propose we write a few words on abuse of posters and we'll have a bit of a charter to refer to. How's that? Got your watch set?

Let's go here so...

write what you feel, post; anyone else here can do the same and then we'll compare notes at 11.05.

You're a demanding taskmaster, boss.

People who look under the bonnet want to know how and why things work. Machine Nation is a workshop for those who want to get their hands dirty with the mechanics of mechanics, politics, economics, philosophy, society and much more.

Machine Nation is about taking things apart and putting them together in a collegial spirit - discussing, figuring things out and sharing knowledge.

The Toolbox offers a range of resources to make your work easier. The Editorial, Content and Moderation Teams are a support network for posters.

Is that too wussy?

Draft ethos / mission statement

Machine Nation was born/invented when Politics.ie had an outage and it is named in honour of the founder of the first refuge, EvotingMachine0197. It came into the world in a spirit of non-partisan enquiry, engagement and fun and we believe it should continue in that vein.

An open-ness to learning and a willingness to share knowledge and skills has been an important mark of the site and we are very proud to say that this tendency kicked off spontaneously with An Fóram Gaeilge where you will find a bilingual section, Tús Maith, in which you are free to try the few words you have, ask questions in either language and engage at your level with other posters. We feel that there is plenty of scope for this structure to be replicated for other subjects.

Before anything else, Machine Nation is about constructive debate. We all have a feeling for what is 'right' and we encourage you to argue your vision in as truculent a manner as possible without insulting someone or breaking the law. To borrow some slogans, Facts not Politics, Play the Ball not the Player, Policy before Politics.



Machines have been instrumental in the liberation of human beings since time began and have progressively added to our stock of wealth and to our capacity to have more and more pleasure and leisure available to us more and more quickly

and we feel that machines have so far been neglected as political forces hence if you have a propensity to log, celebrate and critically assess the use of machines and their impact on the natural world then you should find happiness here.

The definition of a 'machine' may easily be extended to the notion of a 'mechanism' which may include processes written down, constitutions, manifestos indeed systems in general.

Of course the world is also populated by humans and they are celebrated here too.

Pleasure + engagement + meaning = happiness.[i]

Auditor #9 wrote:

*bump*

Something like that ... i;m open to suggestions big style

That is all wonderful stuff.
Could Audi's and Kate's posts possibly mate with each other to produce an infant prodigy?


These were good words too -

Not just scientific or engineering debate alongside politcs as an important part of the substance of the site but they should feel they are inside an approach which is as objective as possible... to promote that ethos of balanced, mature, considered and informed debate

History - ideas - political theory - culture - enjoyment