Milk: a profoundly anti-Irish, inaccurate movie

tonys wrote:

Papal Knight wrote:

tonys wrote:

Papal Knight wrote:

For some reason the Irish seemed to be among most extreme in the US among new arrivals. It has often been commented on.

I’d hazard a guess that a finding like that wouldn’t surprise you a great deal.

I don't understand. Could you explain?

No need to, the fact that you don’t understand is confirmation enough.

confirmation of what? I don't understand either - what point are putting forward, tonys?

yehbut_nobut wrote:

youngdan wrote:

Ask Papal, it is him who is ranting about Irish American steriotypes, now he is church bashing and what has that to do with the shithouse either

I've not been a member that long, but didn't MachineNation used to be nice?

Papal is a recent arrival. God Bless him. In his mind he is an expert on everything but he has never been right on any issue yet as far as I have seen. He will be telling us how good Obama is soon. Of course when Burris appears at the senate door is closeted racism will break out and say he should be turned away.

We will never know why the outhouse was called the outhouse I guess unless it was some sick joke.

youngdan wrote:

yehbut_nobut wrote:

youngdan wrote:

Ask Papal, it is him who is ranting about Irish American steriotypes, now he is church bashing and what has that to do with the shithouse either

I've not been a member that long, but didn't MachineNation used to be nice?

...

We will never know why the outhouse was called the outhouse I guess unless it was some sick joke.

Well actually I do know as I was at a meeting where the idea for a new community center was raised. Don't see the need to explain it here, though.

And nobody at the meeting knew that an Outhouse is a Shithouse ?.

shutuplaura wrote:

Papal Knight wrote:

shutuplaura wrote:

Isn't there a book called 'How the Irish became White' by a black academic which deals with the issue of American-Irish rascism. Basically their bigotry was a response to the inequalities they themselves faced on arrival in a new country. Seems reasonable to me in a way but unfair to single out the Irish when surely it was common among all new arrivals to america - and of course they were only following well established attitudes.

I guess though the controversy over the St Patrick's Day parades and the AOH in NY has helped re-enforce this stereotype of homophobic Irish. Any Stereotype is bread and butter in hollywood

For some reason the Irish seemed to be among most extreme in the US among new arrivals. It has often been commented on. It may well be their status as the new entrants who faced discrimination, their religion (never the most tolerant or well informed), plus also the fact that they tended to form inward looking communities and both by choice and circumstance were less likely to integrate with people outside their community.

When it comes to making films, stereotypes matter because it allows a general perspective to be conveyed through personification.

Of course if they were looking for a standard cliché of a far right extremist Irish-American with so many chips on his shoulders he can hardly type they could simply have used youngdan, who is almost a caricature at this stage, a type of yellow-pack shock jock.

Is that true though? I think the Irish assimilated well and quickly. Almost every influx of immigrants created an inward looking community - why would the italians be considered less inward looking than the irish? The Mafia was so powerful becasue it had inward looking italian communities to use as a base in cities throughout america, in Irish america you only seem to get this in Boston with the westies. The irish were quick to discard their language (were italians/chinese/jewish people/poles/russians?) I think its because the irish assimilated so well that they become a mirror against which the worst of americian working class life - (rascism, homophobia and domestic voilence i suppose) can be reflected. It allows people to think that it wasn't society in general, just the irish.

As for Hollywood stereotypes, I love the stereotypical hollywoood irish - see the curious case of Benjamin button for a great and recent example. It is rascist though i suppose.

The difference between the Irish and many others was that while other groups tended to stress their Americanness first and original country second, the Irish tended to stress their Irishness first. So whereas Italian Americans used to talk about 'visiting' Italy Irish Americans even generations later wanted to 'go home' to Ireland. Far less Irish married outside their group than did other groups. So you'd have O'Haras marrying Murphys, etc whereas Italian Americans did assimilate more. Neighbourhoods would become dominated by one group (Chinese, Italians, Irish, etc) but the Irish were the most closed, sticking together as a community for generations, drinking in Irish bars, praying in Irish churches, supporting each other in unions and electorally, with an intensity that only a minority of Italian Americans achieved.

As to language, the Irish language was already dying when they left, with many parents in Ireland choosing not to teach their parents the 'old' language. There was enough of a critical mass of Italians able to speak Italian to keep it alive among immigrants. There was not among the Irish. Many couldn't speak it before they left. Those that did often had local dialects that other Irish language speakers could not understand. There may have been the critical mass in terms of numbers, but not in terms of shared understanding of the language or appreciation of it. In the mid 19th century Italian was a badge of honour. Irish for most Irish people was an unloved language that they thought held them back. It was only late in the century that anything more than a small number of Irish people in Ireland held an appreciation for Irish.

Hey Shutuplaura. Next time you are in NYC you should visit Little Italy for a bowl of pasta. Then get a cab and ask to be taken to Little Ireland and the cab driver will toss you out onto the street or else bring you to Chinatown for some beef lo-mein.

I don't know where Papal dreams up the mularkey he spins

youngdan wrote:

Hey Shutuplaura. Next time you are in NYC you should visit Little Italy for a bowl of pasta. Then get a cab and ask to be taken to Little Ireland and the cab driver will toss you out onto the street or else bring you to Chinatown for some beef lo-mein.

I don't know where Papal dreams up the mularkey he spins

So long as he doesn't drive me all the way out to woodlawn and expect me to pay...

A friend of mine used to work in a pub called I believe, The Tara, up in Woodlawn. Typical place with the horseshoe counter. Full of racist homophobic Irish bluecollar illegal riffraff. American woman, big and buxum, telling all their mother is from county connemara looking for quick mickie and Irish brogues.

It was an awful place to have to suffer a weekend sure enough. Indeed after an incounter with one, not to mind multiple, of these sexual predaters it was not uncommon for some of the young first-timers to seriously consider an alternative lifestyle after sobering up. A young lad of 17, who would be but hours removed from the Christian embrace of his parents would awaken between 2 Amazons of insatable appetite requesting the most vile.

Culture shock I tell you.

It is a blessed man that ever visited a place called WOODLAWN

Please watch the movie, the takeover of a previously Irish
neighbourhood in SF, the continued excoriation of Dan White's Irish
ethnicity, and so on.

Dan Cassidy, before his untimely death in 2008, wrote about the influence of working-class Gaelic in the US; "How the Irish invented slang"

youngdan wrote:

A friend of mine used to work in a pub called I believe, The Tara, up in Woodlawn. Typical place with the horseshoe counter. Full of racist homophobic Irish bluecollar illegal riffraff. American woman, big and buxum, telling all their mother is from county connemara looking for quick mickie and Irish brogues.

It was an awful place to have to suffer a weekend sure enough. Indeed after an incounter with one, not to mind multiple, of these sexual predaters it was not uncommon for some of the young first-timers to seriously consider an alternative lifestyle after sobering up. A young lad of 17, who would be but hours removed from the Christian embrace of his parents would awaken between 2 Amazons of insatable appetite requesting the most vile.

Culture shock I tell you.

It is a blessed man that ever visited a place called WOODLAWN

Is that Woodlawn as in the Bronx? My sister used to work in a dry-cleaners there years ago, she hated the fakey pub scene. I was dragged to a horrible place there for Christmas in 2001, perhaps the same place, the only saving grace was that it was a private function and there was free drink all night. I remember a horrible drunk woman telling me how the way to sort out the middle east was to 'nuke the bastards'. I quibbled slightly about innocent children, she got very agitated and virtually shouted that today's kids are tomorrow's terrorists, so nuke 'em now. I backed away, very slowly, very scared...

But don't forget toxic that America is the example of a good clean upright society and it's everyone else that is the weirdos.

Don't forget... or else you hate Jesus.

That is the place.

It sounds that you had a lucky escape. There was an open bar so everyone was smashed. A young lady decides to engage you in banter. I hope you don't think that she was interested in your intellect I hope. You decide to talk about innocents just weeks after 911. It is amazing you were not introduced to the business end of a Louisville Slugger.

Did nobody ever tell you not to talk about religion or politics in a tavern. Your escape was bigger than getting out of Alcatraz alive. You could have woke up in the morgue or beside her in the morning, either one would be not to your liking it appears

youngdan wrote:

And nobody at the meeting knew that an Outhouse is a Shithouse ?.

We've had indoor sanitation here in Ireland for many a long year youngdan, although maybe that is since your time.

I can see you have had great enjoyment here chatting with Papal Knight. Your point about how the younger generation here, cosseted as they were in the boom years with indoor loos, have lost touch with their outdoor heritage has been made.

On "closed communities", the Orthodox Jewish community is quite cohesive, I think.

The problem with racial stereotypes is that they are of no use whatsoever when dealing with an individual person of any particular race.

Youngdan, do you think it might be timely now to move back to the ISEQ thread to see if you can explain the little New Year lift and why it won't last?

yehbut_nobut wrote:

youngdan wrote:

Have you ever been to the States. Everyone here knows an outhouse is a shithouse.

What relevance is that to a Community Centre in Dublin? Or anywhere in Ireland, for that matter?

I've never linked the two and I've known about Outhouse for years. I daresay it's something just Americans would find strange, but they've produced enough oddities of their own to point the finger.

There is a chance that the name is a tongue-in-cheek reference to a toilet, It wouldn't be the first time the gay community have twisted words. The gay Irish-speaking group was called the Gaeilgeoirí Aeracha Aontaithe, or the GAA. That was deliberate, as the GAA could be seen to stand for a very Victorian masculine Catholic way of being.

Gays?? A sense of humour??? How could that be...?

It is time to move on but it would be astounding if the connection was not well known to many.

It seems only the opening poster has actually seen this movie.

It is racist against the Irish I guess. I hope it is not as bad as our resident racist Papal. He is the worst type of racist because he hates his own race. It is really distastefull the way he speaks of Irish people. They are all so beneath his cultured level. These bog-people are Clinton supporters and not evolved enough to be Obamabots.

I suspect he may have repressed homophobic feelings as well, after all he is Irish and maligns them often enough so anything is possible

youngdan wrote:

That is the place.

It sounds that you had a lucky escape. There was an open bar so everyone was smashed. A young lady decides to engage you in banter. I hope you don't think that she was interested in your intellect I hope. You decide to talk about innocents just weeks after 911. It is amazing you were not introduced to the business end of a Louisville Slugger.

Did nobody ever tell you not to talk about religion or politics in a tavern. Your escape was bigger than getting out of Alcatraz alive. You could have woke up in the morgue or beside her in the morning, either one would be not to your liking it appears

No, she spoke unilaterally to me while I was waiting at the bar, I simply do not discuss politics with strangers, let alone drunk strangers, let alone foreign drunk strangers. The only comment I made was to break my awkward silence, being stuck for any other way to respond. I grew up Irish in Britain during the days of bombings, the PTA, etc., that was rule number one when you went outside the door, do not talk to anyone about religion, politics, or the North.

A friend of mine was once a waitress there before she was married. Only reason I was there, free drink aside. It really was a sh1thole...

Lucky escape by the sound of it Toxic.

Definately a clone if not the same place. I can't wait to go back

toxic avenger wrote:

I remember a horrible drunk woman telling me how the way to sort out the middle east was to 'nuke the bastards'. I quibbled slightly about innocent children, she got very agitated and virtually shouted that today's kids are tomorrow's terrorists, so nuke 'em now. I backed away, very slowly, very scared...

You should have invoked the oil-wells. Won't somebody think of the oilwells?