Hermes wrote:

Things are heating up in Iceland: LINK.

Thanks for that Hermes. Wage cuts and people going to charities for help. Politicians talking about reducing their own wages and heading off on holiday until January 20th. http://icelandreview.com/icelandreview/daily_news/?cat_id=16567&ew_0_a_id=317204.

The IMF loan is viewed by some as enslavement of the population: control over economic policy is gone and there is a big burden of debt.
Demonstrations seem to be continuing, and the main demand still seems to be to bring the General Election forward. Anarchists are "encouraging direct action". What is their programme for the economy?

Quote :

Iceland ‘Like Chernobyl’ as Meltdown Shows Anger Can Boil Over
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601090&sid=a2gMphgAVl3U&refer=france

Dec. 23 (Bloomberg) -- It was the week before Christmas in Reykjavik, and all through the town Eva Hauksdottir led a band of 60 whistle-blowing, pan-banging, shouting demonstrators.

“Pay your own debts,” they yelled as they visited one bank office after another in Iceland’s capital. “Don’t make the children pay.”

When she isn’t leading one of the almost daily acts of protest in this land devastated by the global financial meltdown, Hauksdottir sells good luck charms made from the claws of ptarmigans, a local bird, and voodoo dolls in the form of bankers. She says she expects to lose her home, worth less than when she bought it two years ago, after the amount she owes jumped more than 20 percent.

Auditor #9 wrote:

Quote :

Iceland ‘Like Chernobyl’ as Meltdown Shows Anger Can Boil Over
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601090&sid=a2gMphgAVl3U&refer=france

Dec. 23 (Bloomberg) -- It was the week before Christmas in Reykjavik, and all through the town Eva Hauksdottir led a band of 60 whistle-blowing, pan-banging, shouting demonstrators.

“Pay your own debts,” they yelled as they visited one bank office after another in Iceland’s capital. “Don’t make the children pay.”

When she isn’t leading one of the almost daily acts of protest in this land devastated by the global financial meltdown, Hauksdottir sells good luck charms made from the claws of ptarmigans, a local bird, and voodoo dolls in the form of bankers. She says she expects to lose her home, worth less than when she bought it two years ago, after the amount she owes jumped more than 20 percent.

What would they do with thousands of repossessed homes in Iceland? Who would benefit? This has got to stop. No-one should be put out of their home.

The anarchists do not intend to step into the shoes of the government. Though they most certainly do intend to overthrow them.

If they get enough support, and there's a very strong probability that they will, the government will be overthrown. There will be an immediate declaration that all debt has been cancelled, including international debt. The IMF etc. will be told to take a jump into the nearest body of water. Collectives will be set up where the people themselves decide what the future, both the immediate and long term, holds.

Iceland is perfect for this move, it's small population, about a third of a million and can be organised into collectives very rapidly, people will see positive change from the very get go.

For sure, there's a strong possibility of foreign intervention, military style. Big mistake. The knock on effect would be the tipping point that many repressed peoples need to follow Iceland's example.

I believe that Iceland can produce enough food currently to feed itself through the transition, should it occur. Though I'll have to check up on that to be sure.

It's kinda hard to believe that there could be a full blown revolution so close to home. It becomes less hard each and every day. Look at Greece, Spain and even France. Our government here should be making notes and taking positive (positive in the sense of caring for its people) steps. But, we've long known that there are none so blind as those who will not see and none so deaf as those who will not hear.

Holy Moly Hermes! That would be quite a turn of events - from capitalist to anarchist society in 6 short months! Are you sure you're not a little tipsy on wishful thinking? I suppose we won't have to wait long to find out ...

coc wrote:

Holy Moly Hermes! That would be quite a turn of events - from capitalist to anarchist society in 6 short months! Are you sure you're not a little tipsy on wishful thinking? I suppose we won't have to wait long to find out ...

I'm always tipsy from wishful thinking. It's what gets me by.

But you gotta admit, that it's a lot less a case of wishful thinking than it was six months ago, or even three months ago.

Big time. Like the old song says:

"If there's a new way,
I'll be the first in line.
But it better work this time"

Hermes wrote:

The anarchists do not intend to step into the shoes of the government. Though they most certainly do intend to overthrow them.

If they get enough support, and there's a very strong probability that they will, the government will be overthrown. There will be an immediate declaration that all debt has been cancelled, including international debt. The IMF etc. will be told to take a jump into the nearest body of water. Collectives will be set up where the people themselves decide what the future, both the immediate and long term, holds.

Iceland is perfect for this move, it's small population, about a third of a million and can be organised into collectives very rapidly, people will see positive change from the very get go.

For sure, there's a strong possibility of foreign intervention, military style. Big mistake. The knock on effect would be the tipping point that many repressed peoples need to follow Iceland's example.

I believe that Iceland can produce enough food currently to feed itself through the transition, should it occur. Though I'll have to check up on that to be sure.

It's kinda hard to believe that there could be a full blown revolution so close to home. It becomes less hard each and every day. Look at Greece, Spain and even France. Our government here should be making notes and taking positive (positive in the sense of caring for its people) steps. But, we've long known that there are none so blind as those who will not see and none so deaf as those who will not hear.

'

Food is a problem. When the British froze all the Icelandic financial institutions with their anti-Terror laws, the supermarkets were emptying and I remember reports of only a couple of weeks food supply remaining.

Like ourselves, the Icelanders are not self sufficient in food, by any means. Perhaps you should suggest to anarchist friends in Iceland that they start planting crops. I would fully support the Icelanders if they choose to put their present government and bankers on a boat with a one-way ticket. I don't think they would be able to hold out on their own, but food for 300,000 should not be impossible to organise for a while: there would surely be many in Ireland and the rest of the EU who would chip in and send a few boats.

I see that the IMF has gone into Latvia with a few billion on condition that public services are slashed. Time to get out Stiglitz and Klein for another read perhaps.

I'd not infer too much from the state of supermarkets in Iceland, or indeed by the scaremongering propagated on their behalves. Their stocks are a reflection of the financial climate and regardless as to how much food is in the country, if cash grows short, their stocks will dwindle. Having said that, I do think it deplorable that supermarkets etc. have become such powerful entities and that in lots of circumstances can threaten a country with famine.

More than half of the revenue made from exports in Iceland, comes from fishing, with about 10% of the workforce employed by the fishing industry. This suggests to me that food would not be a major concern.

Hermes wrote:

I'd not infer too much from the state of supermarkets in Iceland, or indeed by the scaremongering propagated on their behalves. Their stocks are a reflection of the financial climate and regardless as to how much food is in the country, if cash grows short, their stocks will dwindle. Having said that, I do think it deplorable that supermarkets etc. have become such powerful entities and that in lots of circumstances can threaten a country with famine.

More than half of the revenue made from exports in Iceland, comes from fishing, with about 10% of the workforce employed by the fishing industry. This suggests to me that food would not be a major concern.

Go back ten years ago and most states the UK included had food stocks. Now everything is pretty well on the truck or on the shelf. I'm not saying that it couldn't be solved, but it would have to be solved.

Hermes wrote:

The anarchists do not intend to step into the shoes of the government. Though they most certainly do intend to overthrow them.

If they get enough support, and there's a very strong probability that they will, the government will be overthrown. There will be an immediate declaration that all debt has been cancelled, including international debt. The IMF etc. will be told to take a jump into the nearest body of water. Collectives will be set up where the people themselves decide what the future, both the immediate and long term, holds.

Iceland is perfect for this move, it's small population, about a third of a million and can be organised into collectives very rapidly, people will see positive change from the very get go.

For sure, there's a strong possibility of foreign intervention, military style. Big mistake. The knock on effect would be the tipping point that many repressed peoples need to follow Iceland's example.

I believe that Iceland can produce enough food currently to feed itself through the transition, should it occur. Though I'll have to check up on that to be sure.

It's kinda hard to believe that there could be a full blown revolution so close to home. It becomes less hard each and every day. Look at Greece, Spain and even France. Our government here should be making notes and taking positive (positive in the sense of caring for its people) steps. But, we've long known that there are none so blind as those who will not see and none so deaf as those who will not hear.

Have you ever lived in a collective Hermes? How did it go?

cactus flower wrote:

Hermes wrote:

I'd not infer too much from the state of supermarkets in Iceland, or indeed by the scaremongering propagated on their behalves. Their stocks are a reflection of the financial climate and regardless as to how much food is in the country, if cash grows short, their stocks will dwindle. Having said that, I do think it deplorable that supermarkets etc. have become such powerful entities and that in lots of circumstances can threaten a country with famine.

More than half of the revenue made from exports in Iceland, comes from fishing, with about 10% of the workforce employed by the fishing industry. This suggests to me that food would not be a major concern.

Go back ten years ago and most states the UK included had food stocks. Now everything is pretty well on the truck or on the shelf. I'm not saying that it couldn't be solved, but it would have to be solved.

Tis a problem indeed. When an orange can rack up more air miles than me, you know there's a problem somewhere. Africa for example is screwed as is most of Asia, what with governments and multinationals persuading indigenous peoples to replace their traditional crops with commercial alternatives that destroy soil and ecosystems. 'Problems' is too small a description for what we face.

For a long time now we've been content to sit by and watch millions starve with muppets like Geldof or Bono furthering their careers whilst pretending to help but in reality, only soothing our consciences and offering us an easy way out. Maybe it'll be different when the child on our TV screens with the distended belly has blue eyes and blonde hair?

In truth, these are problems that have always faced us. The only difference now being that we've only just recognised that we are a part of the 'us' group. And we're coming to the conclusion too that there is indeed a problem that needs solving. That's half the battle. The world still produces enough food to feed everyone. Food isn't the problem. Scumbags who prevent it being distributed for no other reason than personal gain are the problem.

Helium Three wrote:

Have you ever lived in a collective Hermes? How did it go?

Not a collective as envisioned by anarchists in general, like myself. Though when I was younger I made it my business to learn how to survive off the land and often did so for weeks at a time. Once we even went for a couple of months. Unfortunately, such short durations meant that pursuits like farming etc. were not a part of our methodology. But nonetheless, I'm very confident in my ability to survive. More to the point, I'm confident that folks, once they realise how simple an affair survival is, would take great solace and initiave from it. It's just a matter of getting rid of the parasites that masquerade as providers, that's the problem. Folks have become like junkies for these parasites.

How very true. The junkies are getting worried though. It is beginning to seep in to even the thickest of skulls that they are fools.

I would say to the Dell workers SUCK IT UP, Ye wanted to be part of the global world so get used to a Global standard of living. Did they think that they had a God given right to live large and hire a maid from Poland.

Ireland deserves a bigger shafting than anyplace because they thought they deserved better.

When one billion euro was given away in foreign aid they pranced arround feeling superior. Now they are begging.

It is still going on. O Dea and Bollox are visiting 300 soldiers in Kosova. How about minding yeer own business. Same thing in Chad.

The Irish have swallowed the EU baloney and their edicts so take the medicine and stop whinging.

How is that health care system doing. Remember it is a right that someone else is forced to pay for you if you get a toothache

There is two options. Face reality or continue to think that Cowen gives a shythe about you.

Bertie get's his book deal and the lugs get the book thrown at them.

Hello McFly, anyone ready for a carbon tax.

Junkies and debt addiction - the Icelanders are going to find it ballbreaking to come down off of this. Our health service is awful youngdan - you go in with pneumonia and come out with MRSA. In a box.

Lads do ye think Iceland will join the Eurozone ? I can see that this might be on the cards - they have applied anyhow. How would this pan out - would they be allowed ... ? I don't doubt they would, they have massive riches in the sea perhaps. There would have to be some programme whereby they'd pay their debts and balance their books over 10 or 15 years or something.

Interesting stuff about the Anarchism Hermes - are there plots of land out there we can chip in and buy and at least do a bit of crop-growing if we need to ?

A tasteful presentation of photos in the FT today - the Brown Thomas of Iceland is gone anyway for a start
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e6c21066-d10c-11dd-8cc3-000077b07658.html?nclick_check=1

I'm not convinced about the need to buy land. If the proverbial caca were to converge upon the fan with malice aforethough, land, particularly public land would become available for planting for free. Might be a better idea to stock up on seeds - cheaper too. That said, it is a good idea to talk about this kind of thing with landowners so that they might begin to plant their land once again. Mignt not require a whole lot of persuasion either, considering how financial and jobs markets are going.

It's possible that Iceland might be welcomed into the Eurozone. This becomes more possible as Iceland heads towards shrugging off their chains. Might be a quick wedding. I'd bet though, that if it happens, the honeymoon will be a short one and will be followed by a very acrimonious divorce.

Hermes wrote:

Helium Three wrote:

Have you ever lived in a collective Hermes? How did it go?

Not a collective as envisioned by anarchists in general, like myself. Though when I was younger I made it my business to learn how to survive off the land and often did so for weeks at a time. Once we even went for a couple of months. Unfortunately, such short durations meant that pursuits like farming etc. were not a part of our methodology. But nonetheless, I'm very confident in my ability to survive. More to the point, I'm confident that folks, once they realise how simple an affair survival is, would take great solace and initiave from it. It's just a matter of getting rid of the parasites that masquerade as providers, that's the problem. Folks have become like junkies for these parasites.

Feeding a population of millions, including children and old people, is not the same as foraging by a few able bodied men. In the long term, its not a problem, but it needs to be done with maximum expertise and technical resources. Another Cambodia is not needed.

There are loads of agricultural co-ops across the world Helium Three. They work excellently well.

Sure, I lived on one for best part of a year. Not for everyone though, as you say.

Iceland needs to do exactly what Hermes suggests, They need to tell the EU and bankers to screw. Ireland needs to do likewise but they will starve instead. There is nobody with a backbone to lead the charge.

This is a pic I took when I was in Reykjavik at the end of October. The financial collapse was only begining then - the currency had floored, but people were (mostly) still in jobs and getting paid.




For some reason it sums up Iceland for me. A fantastic out-of-this-world Scandinavian wilderness, that became infected with a love of cutsey-pie americana.

This was my second visit in about six years. Of course not everyone or everywhere was like that - we found a great co-operartive cafe on the main st where we spent a lot of time.

Elsewhere the way things were marketed, and not just for the tourists, seemed very brash, where aspiring to a Holywood-lifestyle version of reality seemed to be seen as "cool", without any irony.

There was something terribly melancholic about it, almost as if the nordic gods were angry...

cactus flower wrote:

Hermes wrote:

Helium Three wrote:

Have you ever lived in a collective Hermes? How did it go?

Not a collective as envisioned by anarchists in general, like myself. Though when I was younger I made it my business to learn how to survive off the land and often did so for weeks at a time. Once we even went for a couple of months. Unfortunately, such short durations meant that pursuits like farming etc. were not a part of our methodology. But nonetheless, I'm very confident in my ability to survive. More to the point, I'm confident that folks, once they realise how simple an affair survival is, would take great solace and initiave from it. It's just a matter of getting rid of the parasites that masquerade as providers, that's the problem. Folks have become like junkies for these parasites.

Feeding a population of millions, including children and old people, is not the same as foraging by a few able bodied men. In the long term, its not a problem, but it needs to be done with maximum expertise and technical resources. Another Cambodia is not needed.

There are loads of agricultural co-ops across the world Helium Three. They work excellently well.

Twas a bit more advanced than foraging, we had electricity, clean water and all the other mod cons any self respecting caveman would desire. There were women involved too. I take your point though, it would be massively different, were it to involve a whole population.

The problem is in surviving the short term. I don't see that as being anything close to impossible. To me, the two biggest problems are medicine and education.

Another problem to be dealt with is the fact that if and when it does become about survival, the population may blame those who've long predicted it and are educated to deal with it. We fight a two-front battle. At the moment it's a propaganda war. When that changes, if it changes, I might find myself swinging from a lamppost in very short order. My only protection from this possible fate is in how I act in the here and now. I'll never once issue a command or a demand to my fellow human beings, I'll merely explain how I deal with and intend to deal with things. Obviously enough, the same does not apply for my dealing with corporations and other slavers. Tis a fine line.

Maybe I'm getting too much into theory when the practical is all around us. And maybe I'm beginning to sound like a conspiracy theorist. With regard to Ireland, what I'm talking of may be years or even decades into the future, if at all. It's not my desire to sound like a prophet of doom claiming that the sky will be down upon us any moment now. All I'm saying is that we're at one of those strange bumps in the road, where stuff can happen pretty quickly. I'm not saying it will happen, I'm saying give it some thought and practice the Boy Scout's motto: "Be prepared." Or is that "Dib Dib."

Expect the unexpected might be a good motto.

youngdan wrote:

How very true. The junkies are getting worried though. It is beginning to seep in to even the thickest of skulls that they are fools.

I would say to the Dell workers SUCK IT UP, Ye wanted to be part of the global world so get used to a Global standard of living. Did they think that they had a God given right to live large and hire a maid from Poland.

Ireland deserves a bigger shafting than anyplace because they thought they deserved better.

When one billion euro was given away in foreign aid they pranced arround feeling superior. Now they are begging.

It is still going on. O Dea and Bollox are visiting 300 soldiers in Kosova. How about minding yeer own business. Same thing in Chad.

The Irish have swallowed the EU baloney and their edicts so take the medicine and stop whinging.

How is that health care system doing. Remember it is a right that someone else is forced to pay for you if you get a toothache

There is two options. Face reality or continue to think that Cowen gives a shythe about you.

Bertie get's his book deal and the lugs get the book thrown at them.

Hello McFly, anyone ready for a carbon tax.

I love it.

A right wing loon agreeing with a left wing loon on what’s wrong with the asylum and what’s needed to fix it.

From the left we have the novel notion that Africa was doing just dandy until the “multinationals” and “Governments” came along and that Geldof/Bono are in it for the publicity. From the right we learn that third world aid is a bad thing as it engenders a dangerous feeling of superiority in the donor, while peace keeping is an unwelcome interference in legitimate local slaughter.

How useful is that? Two one legged men at an arse kicking party spring to mind.

Apologies in advance to the happily downhearted for interfering in this celebration of Iceland’s private grief.

tonys what is your take on the Anglo bailout? Is Morgan Kelly right to say we might as well pile that money up in Stephens Green and torch it?

Tonys welcome back. The left and the right are notions assigned to the portal of this forum - your own mind is a lot more subtle than that.

I'm afraid I am happily downhearted as you very well put it - things went wrong up there for them partly because they were blindly led, partly because of their own greed, partly because they trusted in a system that hadn't failed them up to that point.

Good lessons are not easily learned and with this situation there may be some chance that the old will get put away and something new established that will be more wholesome.

Helium Three wrote:

tonys what is your take on the Anglo bailout? Is Morgan Kelly right to say we might as well pile that money up in Stephens Green and torch it?

In case you didn't see that good question.