http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7321964.stm

It seems that democracy is more fickle than we thought in Turkey. There is a court case being brought against members of the ruling AK party that accuses them of anti-secular activities. If convicted, they could be banned from politics. And ye thought DC was bad!

Seriously though, this illustrates why secularism needs to be looked at more critically. Being anti-secular is a criminal activity over, a position backed up by the courts and the military but not, as the recent election shows, by the people.

905 wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7321964.stm

It seems that democracy is more fickle than we thought in Turkey. There is a court case being brought against members of the ruling AK party that accuses them of anti-secular activities. If convicted, they could be banned from politics. And ye thought DC was bad!

Seriously though, this illustrates why secularism needs to be looked at more critically. Being anti-secular is a criminal activity over, a position backed up by the courts and the military but not, as the recent election shows, by the people.

I think that's pretty much only applicable to Turkey, though. A major point would be that many people appreciate the benefits of secularity (freedom of religion in particular) without appreciating that they are benefits of secularity.

ibis wrote:

905 wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7321964.stm

It seems that democracy is more fickle than we thought in Turkey. There is a court case being brought against members of the ruling AK party that accuses them of anti-secular activities. If convicted, they could be banned from politics. And ye thought DC was bad!

Seriously though, this illustrates why secularism needs to be looked at more critically. Being anti-secular is a criminal activity over, a position backed up by the courts and the military but not, as the recent election shows, by the people.

I think that's pretty much only applicable to Turkey, though. A major point would be that many people appreciate the benefits of secularity (freedom of religion in particular) without appreciating that they are benefits of secularity.

This is all a huge deal for Turkey. Since Kemal Attaturk they have on the whole appreciated big advantages from having a secular state and have voted for it many times. Now they have to watch the army on the one hand and on the other the Islamic movements. Not forgetting the Kurds, who are a political volcano waiting to erupt. The more the middle east is pressurised and disrupted by the US (and european states) the more that has stimulated forms of Islam much less progressive than Islam was even hundreds of yeards ago. Personally I think we should have asked Turkey into the EU and given them a big hug long ago.

I wish I knew who you meant by 'they' cactus flower. As I have pointed out, the electorate voted for the current boyos and their headscarf-wielding wives. As I see it, this isn't about Islamist fanatics at all, it's about moderate Muslims looking for a society that reflects their beliefs, rather than banning them. Repression could lead to more extreme Islamic movements though.

As for the EU, I think they're unhappy about the latest turn of events, bearing in mind their distaste for the Turkish military.

I'm not having a go at secularism here, I'm sure(?) it has brought plenty of benefits to Turkey. I just mean to point out that it isn't always a good thing. And it doesn't always acknowledge democracy.

Update on the Turkey front: The gov is convinced that it will be shafted no matter what kind of defense they put together for thier trial beginning next month. They are now considering a referendum on banning political parties, presumably calling for the practice to be stopped.

My initial reaction was 'Yes. Put it to the people.' But analysts predict that a referendum could spark a military takeover.

Meanwhile the economy tumbles but let's not worry about trivial little things like that.

The pedant within me speaks, "Shouldn't that be the Turkish government?".

905 wrote:

I wish I knew who you meant by 'they' cactus flower. As I have pointed out, the electorate voted for the current boyos and their headscarf-wielding wives. As I see it, this isn't about Islamist fanatics at all, it's about moderate Muslims looking for a society that reflects their beliefs, rather than banning them. Repression could lead to more extreme Islamic movements though.

As for the EU, I think they're unhappy about the latest turn of events, bearing in mind their distaste for the Turkish military.

I'm not having a go at secularism here, I'm sure(?) it has brought plenty of benefits to Turkey. I just mean to point out that it isn't always a good thing. And it doesn't always acknowledge democracy.

mmm those theys are a bit c***py. I agree with what you just said

Turkey's ruling party escapes ban
Another little update: the courts have seen sense and have decided against banning the AKP. Instead a hefty financial penalty will be imposed. But overall: democracy 1, secularism 0!

Good news indeed. Thanks for updating this.

As an aside, may I shamelessly plug BBC Radio 4's drama slot this coming Sunday afternoon? - It's a dramatisation of Orhan Pamuk's My Name is Red. Anything by Pamuk is worth reading / listening to. R4 dramatised Snow to great effect a few years ago.

I'm actually quitesurprised at the attitudes being expressed about this. There seems to be a sense that the government should learn its lesson and never cross the elites with a democratic mandate again. I was expecting judges to be sacked and all kinds of backlashes.