oh yeah, forgot, elections last year = carte blanche for the greens to stay in power no matter what FF do

Edo wrote:

Eoinn - I can see where you are coming from - but Im seriously questioning what the Greens are getting out of all of this - apart from the gimmicks and regulations and directives that EU would have forced the Government to implement in the end anyway.

No more than we would be getting if we were in coalition with FG/Labour. A lot more than if we were in opposition.

zakalwe wrote:

oh yeah, forgot, elections last year = carte blanche for the greens to stay in power no matter what FF do

Not no matter what FF do.

There is a breaking point. We haven't come to it yet, or if we have FF caved.

eoinmn wrote:

Edo wrote:

Eoinn - I can see where you are coming from - but Im seriously questioning what the Greens are getting out of all of this - apart from the gimmicks and regulations and directives that EU would have forced the Government to implement in the end anyway.

No more than we would be getting if we were in coalition with FG/Labour. A lot more than if we were in opposition.

ou

Id question that - but thats why Im in FG - just cant help thinking that you are going to suffer the same fate as the PDs - FF's mudguard and I just hope when this gov collapses and you are reduced to 2-3 seats at best - it will have been worth it - increasing membership is great - but it doesnt always translate to increased votes - The Greens dont top the polls anywhere and you will need transfers and FF'ers as a rule are a waste of space - they only vote for their own and leave the rest of ballot sheet blank.

eoinmn wrote:

zakalwe wrote:

oh yeah, forgot, elections last year = carte blanche for the greens to stay in power no matter what FF do

Not no matter what FF do.

There is a breaking point. We haven't come to it yet, or if we have FF caved.

(thanks for your candour, its not personal despite my accusatory use of "you"!)

what would breaking point be? a few examples would be great. i don't want to give you the rope to hang yourself but we've seen greens roll over and over and over.

there was bertie and his "evidence", there was the mismanagement of the economy and public finances, there was the budget, never mind tara, shannon and rosspoint. there was houwlebone (spell?). there is cancer misdiagnosis, hse mess....the list goes on and on and on.

the greens don't appear to be doing anything, except for the tokenistic gestures to environmentalism. it really depresses me that some meaningless gestures by the greens are worth propping up FF despite all the crap they pulled over the past 20 years.

zakalwe wrote:

(thanks for your candour, its not personal despite my accusatory use of "you"!)

I wouldn't take anything you say personally. MachineNation is the kind of forum where you know everyone means well.

zakalwe wrote:

what would breaking point be? a few examples would be great. i don't want to give you the rope to hang yourself but we've seen greens roll over and over and over.

I dunno, sorry. I imagine different members would have different priorities.
For me, I would be angry to see the ratio of spending on private versus public transport swing back to be 2:1. In this year's budget it was 3:2.
I want to see the commitment on a carbon levy held. I want to see the civil partnerships bill go ahead. A lot of members are quite vocal on the election postering issue.
Its a hard question to answer, because every now and again issues you never thought of, like medical cards for the over 70s, crops up. And occasionally a 'win' you didn't expect pops up.

Quote :

cactus flower wrote:
The situation has completely changed now, with the Green Party being responsible for keeping the FF Government in power, and FF progressively looking like a disaster (as might the main opposition, imo, if they were in the job, but that is immaterial).
eoinmn wrote:
You're correct, with McGrath and Behan gone things are a little different.
This was a tough budget. The next one will be tougher. And what we need now is for responsible coalition partners who can take the rough with the smooth.
FF are not flavour of the month. Would FG be any more popular right now? As Bertie would say, the fundamentals are strong! The reasons the Greens went into government remain.

Cactus Flower wrote:
It seems to me that if the Greens left government now, they would still carry some credibility.We can't walk out of government everytime there is a crisis. Some tough times are on the way, and unpopular decisions will have to be made.
Someday, there may be an issue that the cabinet can't agree on, but for now the medical cards issue appears to be solved.

If they walked now, it would just be to get FF out of government but for no practical purpose. Nobody would thank them, except FG.

When the Greens went into government, it was expressed in terms of better in, and able to implement some impact on climate change, than out. It was also the case that it seemed probable that only FF could form a government and that FF could form that government without the Greens.

That is gone now, and the situation is, or is very close to being a straight choice of supporting this Government or going for an alternative. While the polls still favour an FF government the utilitarian argument (which personally I don't buy) is still maybe there for hanging in. Why drag the country into a general election if FF would win it anyway.

I await the next polls with interest.

As to taking the rough with the smooth, there is no one in the coalition getting anything but smooth. The rough is being taken by the private sector, the retired and children.

eoinmn wrote:

zakalwe wrote:

(thanks for your candour, its not personal despite my accusatory use of "you"!)

I wouldn't take anything you say personally. MachineNation is the kind of forum where you know everyone means well.

I resent that.

tonys wrote:

eoinmn wrote:

zakalwe wrote:

(thanks for your candour, its not personal despite my accusatory use of "you"!)

I wouldn't take anything you say personally. MachineNation is the kind of forum where you know everyone means well.

I resent that.

eoinmn wrote:

zakalwe wrote:

(thanks for your candour, its not personal despite my accusatory use of "you"!)

I wouldn't take anything you say personally. MachineNation is the kind of forum where you know everyone means well.

zakalwe wrote:

what would breaking point be? a few examples would be great. i don't want to give you the rope to hang yourself but we've seen greens roll over and over and over.

I dunno, sorry. I imagine different members would have different priorities.
For me, I would be angry to see the ratio of spending on private versus public transport swing back to be 2:1. In this year's budget it was 3:2.
I want to see the commitment on a carbon levy held. I want to see the civil partnerships bill go ahead. A lot of members are quite vocal on the election postering issue.
Its a hard question to answer, because every now and again issues you never thought of, like medical cards for the over 70s, crops up. And occasionally a 'win' you didn't expect pops up.

I cannot understand what the problem is with election posters. I like them. Even when they are full of Libertas lies. Bring in a law that says they have to be made of recyclable cardboard, but don't get rid of them.

I think people should be allowed to campaign outside polling stations too,

You mean harass outside polling stations? I don't think we need the experience of the Arts Block in UCD at election time brought to the national arena.

johnfás wrote:

You mean harass outside polling stations? I don't think we need the experience of the Arts Block in UCD at election time brought to the national arena.

I imagine harassment would be counterproductive. Elections should not be sanitised. Turnout was higher when this alleged harassment was taking place.

I fail to see any correlation between campaiging at polling stations and turnout. Presumably you would have to go near the polling station to see it in the first place.

johnfás wrote:

I fail to see any correlation between campaiging at polling stations and turnout. Presumably you would have to go near the polling station to see it in the first place.

Perhaps people's attention was drawn to the polling stations by the crowds and posters surrounding them, and perhaps this encouraged them to vote. Currently you could walk past a polling station without knowing there was an election on.

Seems like a bit of a flakey connection to me. Voting turnout is falling as a general trend throughout the developed world - what is the situation regarding campaigning outside polling stations in these countries? The turnout was actually quite a bit up in the last election.

As I said, my opinion would be against such campaigning. How to you regulate the difference between campaigning and harassment at the coal face of the polling station?

johnfás wrote:

I fail to see any correlation between campaiging at polling stations and turnout. Presumably you would have to go near the polling station to see it in the first place.

It was contact with political people, something most voters don’t experience anymore, it was also genuine testimony to how much your vote was valued by the various parties, and it was direct involvement with the process. It was something that helped to bring you back next time.

Oh I understand the argument one would make to support such campaigning. But I fail to see any hard facts to show that it does actually affect turnout. I do however, on a personal basis, dislike such tactics and in the absence of evidence that it improves turnout, I will remain against it.

johnfás wrote:

Seems like a bit of a flakey connection to me. Voting turnout is falling as a general trend throughout the developed world - what is the situation regarding campaigning outside polling stations in these countries? The turnout was actually quite a bit up in the last election.

As I said, my opinion would be against such campaigning. How to you regulate the difference between campaigning and harassment at the coal face of the polling station?

There was a huge turnout in France at the last election also.

I don't see what the problem is with having party workers putting up posters outside the polling station (not inside) and handing out leaflets. There may be a small litter problem on the day but that is it. There is no harassment involved other than people handing you leaflets you may not want.

As tonys says, it may be the only time you actually see someone from a political party in real life.

DeGaulle wrote:

johnfás wrote:

I fail to see any correlation between campaiging at polling stations and turnout. Presumably you would have to go near the polling station to see it in the first place.

Perhaps people's attention was drawn to the polling stations by the crowds and posters surrounding them, and perhaps this encouraged them to vote. Currently you could walk past a polling station without knowing there was an election on.

I like election posters too (apart from the ones that fall off and kill people). I agree that they raise awareness of what is going on. A big poster campaign is quite expensive though. Nicky Kelly re-used the same ones in three elections - greener than the greens

You'd want to, being from Arklow .

tonys wrote:

eoinmn wrote:

zakalwe wrote:

(thanks for your candour, its not personal despite my accusatory use of "you"!)

I wouldn't take anything you say personally. MachineNation is the kind of forum where you know everyone means well.

I resent that.

Everyone except you then tonys ??

tonys wrote:

It was contact with political people, something most voters don’t experience anymore, it was also genuine testimony to how much your vote was valued by the various parties, and it was direct involvement with the process. It was something that helped to bring you back next time.

Tonys gets to the heart of the issue here I think, and it is an emotive one.

I remember, as a child, with my Dad, hoisting posters up on to ESB poles. I remember him too at the school gate "reminding" people how to vote as they walked into the polling station. It was done in a neighbourly fashion and with a volunteering spirit.

In the last election, I believe Sinn Fein and the Greens (and the socialists) were the only parties to have party members hang their posters. The others used professional poster hangers. Lads going around in a van putting up posters everywhere, sometimes 2 parties at a time.
There is something sad about that.

The new regulations wouldn't ban posters, I expect, they will reduce the number. And maybe this will lead candidates to be smart about where they hang them, targetting certains streets or roads, rather than blanket postering the whole constituency. I think last year we suffered from poster pollution. There was simply too many.

eoinmn wrote:

tonys wrote:

It was contact with political people, something most voters don’t experience anymore, it was also genuine testimony to how much your vote was valued by the various parties, and it was direct involvement with the process. It was something that helped to bring you back next time.

Tonys gets to the heart of the issue here I think, and it is an emotive one.

I remember, as a child, with my Dad, hoisting posters up on to ESB poles. I remember him too at the school gate "reminding" people how to vote as they walked into the polling station. It was done in a neighbourly fashion and with a volunteering spirit.

In the last election, I believe Sinn Fein and the Greens (and the socialists) were the only parties to have party members hang their posters. The others used professional poster hangers. Lads going around in a van putting up posters everywhere, sometimes 2 parties at a time.
There is something sad about that.

The new regulations wouldn't ban posters, I expect, they will reduce the number. And maybe this will lead candidates to be smart about where they hang them, targetting certains streets or roads, rather than blanket postering the whole constituency. I think last year we suffered from poster pollution. There was simply too many.

I think this is a limit on democracy, and will on the whole be more adverse to newer and smaller parties. As you say eoinmn, party supporters can run off a few hundred posters and get them out there under their own steam. The established parties have endless access to the media and also evade regulations by advertising before elections are declared.

eoinmn wrote:

tonys wrote:

It was contact with political people, something most voters don’t experience anymore, it was also genuine testimony to how much your vote was valued by the various parties, and it was direct involvement with the process. It was something that helped to bring you back next time.

Tonys gets to the heart of the issue here I think, and it is an emotive one.

I remember, as a child, with my Dad, hoisting posters up on to ESB poles. I remember him too at the school gate "reminding" people how to vote as they walked into the polling station. It was done in a neighbourly fashion and with a volunteering spirit.

In the last election, I believe Sinn Fein and the Greens (and the socialists) were the only parties to have party members hang their posters. The others used professional poster hangers. Lads going around in a van putting up posters everywhere, sometimes 2 parties at a time.
There is something sad about that.

The new regulations wouldn't ban posters, I expect, they will reduce the number. And maybe this will lead candidates to be smart about where they hang them, targetting certains streets or roads, rather than blanket postering the whole constituency. I think last year we suffered from poster pollution. There was simply too many.

Only the Greens and Sinn Fein and the socialists have party members hang their posters? - they are in me bollox - do you how expensive it is to hire somebody to hang posters for you?

The only party with the kind of cash to get somebody else to handle their posters are Fianna Fail - period.

I can only speak for FG - In the last General Election we put up all our own posters and took them down ourselves too - I know - I put up about 60% of them personally in DSE . As regards Lisbon - We put up all our own posters , for the meetings, the local elected reps and the main party posters (we = me + plus one other - 400 posters for the constituency - that was great fun I can tell you) - The only crowds to have the resources to pay a team to do their posters as regards Lisbon - were Fianna Fail, the Alliance for Europe and Libertas - Im still not sure about the Sinners - I did hear rumours that party members or associaties were compensated for doing this kind of thing - you can tell this by the way and frequency the posters are hung and Sinn Feins' (in my const) definitely gave the impression of having been professional hung - if that is not a contradition in terms.

Fine Gael - despite impressions to the contrary - is the epitome of a voluntary party - we dont have a lot of cash and fundraising consumes a lot of our time - most of the money behind the party comes in very small donations, golf club outings, coffee mornings and other social events and a superdraw every year - so much so that when the membership do not get actively involved and behind a campaign - it really y really shows - in a way we are punching well above our weight in that we dont have a constant income stream like FF and Labour (thru the unions)

I had been misinformed. Edo, I'm sorry for saying Fine Gael paid for "professional" postering.
And impressed, I have to say.