tags: Anglo Irish Bank The Bank Recap., 7 billion Deposit Fianna Fáil 22% Labour 24% Poll Fás in Castlebar Irish Crony Capitalism, the Gardai raid Anglo /March 2 Fintan O'Toole and Pension Contributions

Are ye watching Prime Time at all? Dr. James O'Reilly was on with a FF TD who I didn't recognise. The statistic I heard today was that there are 350,000 people over 70 - is that right That's an awful rake of people.

And now the heads of the Universities are on and we're told they earn quarter of a million each... wo ho

The FF point that James Reilly was head of the IMO when the deal was negotiated is an entirely irrelevant one. Presumably it only goes to show that if he were in Government he would be better capable of negotiating a deal for the State - at least he achieved what he set out to in the original negotiations.

johnfás wrote:

The FF point that James Reilly was head of the IMO when the deal was negotiated is an entirely irrelevant one. Presumably it only goes to show that if he were in Government he would be better capable of negotiating a deal for the State - at least he achieved what he set out to in the original negotiations.

The far more interesting point was that up to mid December of last year Reilly was still of the belief that not everyone over 70 should have an entitlement to a medical card, but by today he thought it was immoral to for them not to have that entitlement. I wonder why he changed his mind?, I’d hate to think he was playing politics with the over 70’s or the economy.

Indeed and that is the point. Not that he negotiated the deal. The fact that he negotiated such a favourable deal for the group which he represented can only be a credit to the man. Perhaps we need the IMO to run the country .

tonys wrote:

johnfás wrote:

The FF point that James Reilly was head of the IMO when the deal was negotiated is an entirely irrelevant one. Presumably it only goes to show that if he were in Government he would be better capable of negotiating a deal for the State - at least he achieved what he set out to in the original negotiations.

The far more interesting point was that up to mid December of last year Reilly was still of the belief that not everyone over 70 should have an entitlement to a medical card, but by today he thought it was immoral to for them not to have that entitlement. I wonder why he changed his mind?, I’d hate to think he was playing politics with the over 70’s or the economy.

Aye its absolutely shocking that Fine Gael are going to play politics with this isn't it - the total opposite of the loyal level headed constructive opposition that Fianna Fail gave us in the 80's - "Health cuts hit the poor, young and the elderly" I seem to remember from Billboards around the election in 87 and I think they had a picture of Charlie Haughey beside them

Imagine any politician playing politics with an issue.

Edo wrote:

tonys wrote:

johnfás wrote:

The FF point that James Reilly was head of the IMO when the deal was negotiated is an entirely irrelevant one. Presumably it only goes to show that if he were in Government he would be better capable of negotiating a deal for the State - at least he achieved what he set out to in the original negotiations.

The far more interesting point was that up to mid December of last year Reilly was still of the belief that not everyone over 70 should have an entitlement to a medical card, but by today he thought it was immoral to for them not to have that entitlement. I wonder why he changed his mind?, I’d hate to think he was playing politics with the over 70’s or the economy.

Aye its absolutely shocking that Fine Gael are going to play politics with this isn't it - the total opposite of the loyal level headed constructive opposition that Fianna Fail gave us in the 80's - "Health cuts hit the poor, young and the elderly" I seem to remember from Billboards around the election in 87 and I think they had a picture of Charlie Haughey beside them

We don’t mind acting the bollox, we’re known for it, but the good Dr Reilly, he to be a Doctor and a member of the righteous as well.
Really Dr Reilly what is the world coming to.

The sheer, brass-necked, cynicism of it all.

heh heh yeah

Sorry for the delay in replying - I was picking myself up off the floor after the shock of watching a FF TD apologise to the nation (well part of it anyway) on the VB Show.

Yis are really in the proverbial Do Do on this one - I was out doing a letter drop for a few hours earlier this evening for my local councillor and I only got 2 streets done in 2 hours because of the amount of people who came to the door when the letter dropped inside and came out and caught up with me to give out stinks about the budget - man this is ten times worse than lisbon and is the only time in my life so far that I was thankful that I had my FG membership card in my wallet! its everybody , regardless of status and age , but especially the Golden Oldies - they are ripping and totally paranoid that this is just the thin edge of the wedge. Health and Education are the biggies.

Seeing as I had my bike nicked last week - I might drop my helmet into Mickey Donnelly (our local FF rep - nice chap actually) and tell him to buy the rest of the protection gear cos he's gonna need it - this is going to run and run - and I'll get on to the overly cautious constituency organisation and tell them that my initial proposal to run 4 candidates in the ward next June is most definitely the right one - we now have a seriously realistic chance of going from 2 to 3 and if we run the right type of campaign (gloves off-budget budget budget) we could take 4 quite easily as the Greens are going to get it seriously in the neck and the PDs are on the point of self immolation.

Edo wrote:

heh heh yeah

Sorry for the delay in replying - I was picking myself up off the floor after the shock of watching a FF TD apologise to the nation (well part of it anyway) on the VB Show.

Yis are really in the proverbial Do Do on this one - I was out doing a letter drop for a few hours earlier this evening for my local councillor and I only got 2 streets done in 2 hours because of the amount of people who came to the door when the letter dropped inside and came out and caught up with me to give out stinks about the budget - man this is ten times worse than lisbon and is the only time in my life so far that I was thankful that I had my FG membership card in my wallet! its everybody , regardless of status and age , but especially the Golden Oldies - they are ripping and totally paranoid that this is just the thin edge of the wedge. Health and Education are the biggies.

Seeing as I had my bike nicked last week - I might drop my helmet into Mickey Donnelly (our local FF rep - nice chap actually) and tell him to buy the rest of the protection gear cos he's gonna need it - this is going to run and run - and I'll get on to the overly cautious constituency organisation and tell them that my initial proposal to run 4 candidates in the ward next June is most definitely the right one - we now have a seriously realistic chance of going from 2 to 3 and if we run the right type of campaign (gloves off-budget budget budget) we could take 4 quite easily as the Greens are going to get it seriously in the neck and the PDs are on the point of self immolation.

Would you stand yourself, Edo?

Edo wrote:

heh heh yeah

Sorry for the delay in replying - I was picking myself up off the floor after the shock of watching a FF TD apologise to the nation (well part of it anyway) on the VB Show.

Yis are really in the proverbial Do Do on this one - I was out doing a letter drop for a few hours earlier this evening for my local councillor and I only got 2 streets done in 2 hours because of the amount of people who came to the door when the letter dropped inside and came out and caught up with me to give out stinks about the budget - man this is ten times worse than lisbon and is the only time in my life so far that I was thankful that I had my FG membership card in my wallet! its everybody , regardless of status and age , but especially the Golden Oldies - they are ripping and totally paranoid that this is just the thin edge of the wedge. Health and Education are the biggies.

Seeing as I had my bike nicked last week - I might drop my helmet into Mickey Donnelly (our local FF rep - nice chap actually) and tell him to buy the rest of the protection gear cos he's gonna need it - this is going to run and run - and I'll get on to the overly cautious constituency organisation and tell them that my initial proposal to run 4 candidates in the ward next June is most definitely the right one - we now have a seriously realistic chance of going from 2 to 3 and if we run the right type of campaign (gloves off-budget budget budget) we could take 4 quite easily as the Greens are going to get it seriously in the neck and the PDs are on the point of self immolation.

They have made an unholy dogs dinner of the budget and will have to take whatever is coming their way because of it. For the future, losing seats in the locals is not serious, showing an inability to learn lessons would be.

cactus flower wrote:

Would you stand yourself, Edo?

hmm- I feel a Jim Hacker moment coming on here

I would be lying if it hadn't crossed my mind and there were a few feelers put my direction ,from seasoned national activists as opposed to anybody within the local constituency itself - but I have declined to make any moves for now - Im still feeling my way in as regards FG and have been pretty content to be a water carrier and general go-for up to now - I enjoyed the Lisbon campaign - Apart from Lucy who was Director for all Dublin and the general apathy of the party in general in regard to the Treaty - I was pretty much left to my own devices as to what local campaign we would do and where we should concentrate our fire and in that regard it went pretty well.

If I was settled in DSE and felt I would be living and working here for the forseeable future - yes I would making moves in this direction - but seeing as my life is entering a state of flux and I'm off on a roadtrip, both physical and metaphoric in the near future - final destination unknown - for now its an option that I will be putting aside - maybe maybe if I return and have a definite roadmap in mind - well all bets would be off.

So for the moment Im just a special advisor to my local councillor Edie Wynne, who I personally like,is very competent and dedicated and is really doing very well and we've been testing out a few new moves and strategy in regard to communicating with our electorate and for next years local election - its been fun and a great learning experience.

I've caught the bug alright - but now is simply not the right time for me - watch this space

It would be my hope that everyone learns something from this, all parties at all levels around the country.
I would also hope that the electorate learn something too, now that they have been jolted out of a great slumber, democracy works a lot better with vigilance and participation. Texting, phoning, mailing or singing songs in a church, seeking accountability and representation should be the norm, not a one off reaction.

I got four TD replies to my email last week, and I'm quite happy about that. Maybe I'll use that option more in future.

Something good might come out of all of this ??

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

It would be my hope that everyone learns something from this, all parties at all levels around the country.
I would also hope that the electorate learn something too, now that they have been jolted out of a great slumber, democracy works a lot better with vigilance and participation. Texting, phoning, mailing or singing songs in a church, seeking accountability and representation should be the norm, not a one off reaction.

I got four TD replies to my email last week, and I'm quite happy about that. Maybe I'll use that option more in future.

Something good might come out of all of this ??

At the moment for a lot of people it just feels like being in a car crash, I think, and will go on doing so for a long while. Ibis's post on the pressure we're putting on the planet, on another thread, shows
I looked at the comfortable and well upholstered TDs speaking on both sides on the budget last night and even from the one's I would have most time from, there was no feeling of having captured the situation we are in. So while I'm 100% behind emailing them and generally shaking the tree, I personally have no confidence in them. The nearest I see to having awareness of economic and social realities and some social responsibility is Labour and I will be talking to them, and to the other left parties, to see if there is anywhere I would fit in.

Auditor #9 wrote:

And now the heads of the Universities are on and we're told they earn quarter of a million each... wo ho

Playing devil's advocate now...
Is it so bad that the managers of companies with 500+ employees and 10,000+ students earn €270,000?

cactus flower wrote:

The nearest I see to having awareness of economic and social realities and some social responsibility is Labour and I will be talking to them, and to the other left parties, to see if there is anywhere I would fit in.

Fair play to you. It would be great if this budget fiasco inspired people to get more involved in politics.

And imagine a local election fought on issues rather than personality?

tonys wrote:

For the future, losing seats in the locals is not serious

Are the councillors of today not the TDs of tomorrow?

eoinmn wrote:

tonys wrote:

For the future, losing seats in the locals is not serious

Are the councillors of today not the TDs of tomorrow?

eoinm: where are the Green's going? I voted for Green candidates on several occasions, although withheld my vote from one as she was pushing her commercial interests in the campaign.

It is now pretty clear that the party leadership has a fairly limited/unambitious ecological agenda and perspectives, and also apparently has no in-principle objection to the economic and social policies of Fianna Fail and the PDs, which it is propping up.

Opinion polls over the summer suggested that being in Government had been good for the Greens electorally, in spite of disagreements within the core membership. Association with power and motherhood and apple pie environmental measures were a favourable combination. They looked better than FF in some respects, without at that stage being damaged by the association.

The situation has completely changed now, with the Green Party being responsible for keeping the FF Government in power, and FF progressively looking like a disaster (as might the main opposition, imo, if they were in the job, but that is immaterial).

What are your thoughts on this?


It seems to me that if the Greens left government now, they would still carry some credibility.

cactus flower wrote:

eoinmn wrote:

tonys wrote:

For the future, losing seats in the locals is not serious

Are the councillors of today not the TDs of tomorrow?

eoinm: where are the Green's going? I voted for Green candidates on several occasions, although withheld my vote from one as she was pushing her commercial interests in the campaign.

We're making a big push on the ground for the local elections. Here in Galway, the Greens were the first out of the traps to announce their candidates. And we're running in constituencies we haven't run in before.

cactus flower wrote:

It is now pretty clear that the party leadership has a fairly limited/unambitious ecological agenda and perspectives,

Look at the budget.
In a time of cutbacks and economic meltdown there is an extra 19% for water services (which is badly needed, since water was neglected for so long), and the Home Energy Scheme has gone from €5m to €20m.
There is a tax on flights.
A nascent property tax, which will go to local government.
And the principle of charging for car parks, which will ultimately lead to smarter urban land use, was introduced.
There is a lot for Green supporters to be happy about, but hasn't been covered in the media. Instead jibes are made about the bicycle scheme.

cactus flower wrote:

and also apparently has no in-principle objection to the economic and social policies of Fianna Fail and the PDs, which it is propping up.

The medical card changes, of course, has been a fiasco. All the government parties have a bloody nose from that one, and rightly so. But in fairness, Gogarty and White were able to join the chorus of criticism, whilst showing that the Greens can be a responsible party in government, and John Gormley claims that Dan Boyle did a lot of the background work on the new limits. I think the majority of people will be happy with the new limits introduced.

cactus flower wrote:

Opinion polls over the summer suggested that being in Government had been good for the Greens electorally, in spite of disagreements within the core membership. Association with power and motherhood and apple pie environmental measures were a favourable combination. They looked better than FF in some respects, without at that stage being damaged by the association.

Not only did opinion polls look good, but membership rose sharply. This will be beneficial in the elections next year.

cactus flower wrote:

The situation has completely changed now, with the Green Party being responsible for keeping the FF Government in power, and FF progressively looking like a disaster (as might the main opposition, imo, if they were in the job, but that is immaterial).

You're correct, with McGrath and Behan gone things are a little different.
This was a tough budget. The next one will be tougher. And what we need now is for responsible coalition partners who can take the rough with the smooth.
FF are not flavour of the month. Would FG be any more popular right now? As Bertie would say, the fundamentals are strong! The reasons the Greens went into government remain.

Cactus Flower wrote:

It seems to me that if the Greens left government now, they would still carry some credibility.

We can't walk out of government everytime there is a crisis. Some tough times are on the way, and unpopular decisions will have to be made.
Someday, there may be an issue that the cabinet can't agree on, but for now the medical cards issue appears to be solved.

If they walked now, it would just be to get FF out of government but for no practical purpose. Nobody would thank them, except FG.

eoin,

does it not stick in your craw to be constantly defending FF like they are some kind of innocent bystander in the current mess our country finds itself in.

FF are the problem and the shyte they carried out over the past 20 years is coming home to roost.

the greens were a critic of FF policy but now are defenders. and have FF rewarded this loyalty with policies? not for one minute (unless you count the some meaningless gestures). the greens will get the flak for increased taxes.

i gave the greens a high preference in the last election primarily to try to install an alternative govt. the greens took my mandate and used it to cover FFs asses. i will never vote green again (having voted for them in the past 2 elections).

i suspect many many green voters will do the same, but if you feel thats ok because you'll get FF transfers then thats fine but remember the PDs.

Cactus Flower, here's a great question posed by David McWilliams.
Who will Breakfast Roll Man vote for now that Bertie is gone?
http://www.davidmcwilliams.ie/2008/10/22/breakfast-roll-man-is-in-need-of-a-second-chance

Quote :

He even voted for Bertie last time because although house prices
were beginning to wobble, he trusted Bertie to sort things out. As far
as Breakfast Roll Man was concerned he voted for Bertie not Fianna
Fail. But he realises now he was sold a pup. He doesn’t know what to
make of Cowen.
Breakfast Roll Man was never ideological. He knows nothing about the
civil war. Sean Lemass might as well have been Brian Boru as far as he
is concerned. Wolfe Tone sounds like a children’s Halloween character
and his Ma couldn’t stand De Valera. He is now a floating voter, with
allegiance to no one.
Whoever wants to win the next election has to get inside Breakfast
Roll Man’s head. He wants security, not risk; familiarity not novelty
and above all he wants to be given a second chance. Like thousands of
others, he deserves it. But who is going to throw him a lifeline? Can
you afford to pay for his parachute?

Perhaps it deserves a thread of its own..

I remember meeting the quintessential Breakfast Roll Man before the last election, who assured me the crypto in the Galway water was put there by the Green Party to discredit FF. I wonder, if he's out of work, who he'll vote for now?

zakalwe wrote:

does it not stick in your craw to be constantly defending FF like they are some kind of innocent bystander in the current mess our country finds itself in.

I don't defend FF.
This recession is their making.

But I don't see how the Greens pulling out of government can fix that.

eoinmn wrote:

zakalwe wrote:

does it not stick in your craw to be constantly defending FF like they are some kind of innocent bystander in the current mess our country finds itself in.

I don't defend FF.
This recession is their making.

But I don't see how the Greens pulling out of government can fix that.

jeez yeah, heaven forbid you might actually hold the feckers accountable for something. that would take principles right?

even labour walked in the end. the greens seem to be as tough talking and soft walking as mcdowell in nov 2006.

but hey, as long as your ministers hold out for a few more months they'll qualify for full ministerial pensions, i mean implement some more environmental policies like free BIK on company provided bicycles.

zakalwe wrote:

jeez yeah, heaven forbid you might actually hold the feckers accountable for something. that would take principles right?

They were held accountable last year, the electorate voted them back in.
I suppose you'd like the Greens to pull out of government so that Fianna Fail can feel the wrath of the electorate for the property bubble finally bursting?
I don't see what good that would do anyone.

eoinmn wrote:

zakalwe wrote:

jeez yeah, heaven forbid you might actually hold the feckers accountable for something. that would take principles right?

They were held accountable last year, the electorate voted them back in.
I suppose you'd like the Greens to pull out of government so that Fianna Fail can feel the wrath of the electorate for the property bubble finally bursting?
I don't see what good that would do anyone.

Eoinn - I can see where you are coming from - but Im seriously questioning what the Greens are getting out of all of this - apart from the gimmicks and regulations and directives that EU would have forced the Government to implement in the end anyway.

In Fairness FG and Labour ,quite stupidly in my opinion, have left the "Green Agenda" to the Greens ,offering nothing more than platitudes and verbal soundbites as to their green credentials - something that will have to change - and I know in FG , something that will change as there as been quite a groundswell among the younger and urban members for the party to finally get with it.

Still - The Green vote in my constituency (DSE) is on very shaky ground - out of 10 councillors they have none , Gormley got in by vathe skin of his teeth , a hell of lot due to the fact that FG and Labour DSE canvassers like myself urged a high preference vote for the Alternative Gov at the last election and DSE voters like Zaka gave a high preference and he got in by the skin of his teeth and had the good fortune that FG had launched a prolonged negative and highly effective campaign against Mcdowell - there was only 50 odd votes in it at the end. Now the Ringsend incerator is going ahead, all this budget blowback is going to run and run - the Greens are in serious trouble - you have got the last preference votes from FG,Lab and Sinn Fein you will get for some time - the PDs are defunct and are returning back to FG in their droves if the last month is anything to go by - so you'll be relying on FF transfers - would hate to be in that situation.