tonys wrote:

Auditor #9 wrote:

Are those people who retire not going to be having their places refilled? What kinds of savings are ye seeing there ? After 5 years, 2 billion per year.

Seriously - are ye not nervous that there won't be an upturn like you want ? And have ye looked at how much ye'd be hoping to get in tax from such an upswing? There's no telling when there will be an upswing or how strong it might be, we're depending on the world economy there, but it will happen sometime and because they're throwing everything at it, probably sooner rather than later.

2 billion a year on the Civil Servants who hightail it where ever they hightail it to ??? that's something now.

I think the BUST should be managed as the BOOM should have been managed - with an eye to the future mainly but also with an eye to present suffering because things will change - it's inevitable.

What Eddie Hobbs alluded to one night on the Late Late and he could be right is the Wall Of Cash coming at us eventually ... people are holding back on spending now but there could be a glut of it hitting at some point in a minor or significant boom. All I can see myself in my own humble way is the energy boom - there's money hand over fist being thrown at it. And though they say there's no money around I think that's cak - there will be a 'Leisure Boom' soon enough too as prices get more and more competitive and youngfellas want to work a little less and travel a bit more. I'd say they can do it too AND buy a house because houses will be rockbottom soon.

The Bust has to be managed now as the Boom should have been but obviously in reverse ... I'll have to work that out tomorrow because there's sheep to be counted now.

Auditor #9 wrote:

tonys wrote:

Auditor #9 wrote:

Are those people who retire not going to be having their places refilled? What kinds of savings are ye seeing there ? After 5 years, 2 billion per year.

Seriously - are ye not nervous that there won't be an upturn like you want ? And have ye looked at how much ye'd be hoping to get in tax from such an upswing? There's no telling when there will be an upswing or how strong it might be, we're depending on the world economy there, but it will happen sometime and because they're throwing everything at it, probably sooner rather than later.

2 billion a year on the Civil Servants who hightail it where ever they hightail it to ??? that's something now.

I think the BUST should be managed as the BOOM should have been managed - with an eye to the future mainly but also with an eye to present suffering because things will change - it's inevitable.

What Eddie Hobbs alluded to one night on the Late Late and he could be right is the Wall Of Cash coming at us eventually ... people are holding back on spending now but there could be a glut of it hitting at some point in a minor or significant boom.

There is truth in that, our personal savings rate went up last year from 3% in 2007 to I think 12% in 2008, not to mention the extra people are paying of their home loans.

Come come surely there is no surprise in this (Diageo), only those in the middle pay tax. Indeed many a small business probably pays more tax than it strictly should and many in need under claim what they are entitled to.

It is relatively easy to set up a system where production is in one jurisdiction and profit is channelled through another trading company in some more favourable tax regime. Equally for an individual with a few Euro it is important to consider carefully where best to reside, or more pertinently where to insure that you do not reside to ensure that you are treated as a non resident. Travel broadens the mind and for some can do wonders to their finances.

Yeah the global recession will end eventually - probably on the back of massive public spending by other nations in their infrastructure and other such things - what worries me is whether we will have any companies left that will have something worth selling to them, outside our Pharma sector - consumer spending on the line of the last 10 years will definitely not be coming back - the big spenders of the last 10 years - ourselves , the Yanks and the Brits will not be such a big hurry to ramp up spending again for quite a while - and dont rule out a degree of protectionism creeping into the world economy over this time either - our speciality of producing overpriced housing might not be the big earner we think it is.

More on this tomorrow - off to the leaba with my book on the French Foreign Legion - Are they still recruiting? would I pass the pyschiatric entrance exam

Edo

Nothing wrong with a bit of selective protectionism through tax on non essentials. I can't see any other way to reduce consumption of imported consumer products in the west and if that does not happen then the imbalances will continue and that cannot be maintained. That sort of consumption cannot remain the engine for world trade.

The other option is a radical adjustment in currency values, but I just do not see that happening. There would be stiff resistence from producer countries.

Also there is already quite high levels of protectionism in many countries. You can set up a company in say China of Japan to produce for that country much easier than you could set up a company in Vietnam and export into China and Japan or India for that matter. The idea that there is free and open markets is one of those urban myths on a par with alligators breeding in the sewers of New York.

Aragon, Edo was addressing you somewhere in there ....

Edo wrote:

Well typing away as I am from a snowbound(until 1 hour ago) hideway up the side of Mount Leinster - the whole conversation here and over at the other place has an air of total unreality about it - Do people actually realise the seriousness of the situation the whole country is in?

Both my folks are retired public servants - My Dad woke up this morning fully prepared to have his pension reduced by about 10-15% - he is totally non-political and politicians in general do his head in so he doesn't get involved - but he was an honours maths and physics teacher and union rep and he has an unerring capacity to spot a bullshitter a mile off and he can do his sums - he is stunned that he wont be effected his time around and he thinks the whole political and union cabal are completely away with the fairies in they think this tinkering around the edges is going to do anything - this is like taking an aspirin to treat gangrene - It is time that the brutal facts of the dire situation we are in were put central stage in simple black and white primary school mathematics.

And I agree with him - we are rapidly becoming the financial laughing stock of Europe - if not the world - our bonds are the most expensive in Europe - we're even worse than the fucking Greeks - the shame of it.

Young Dan (it fecking kills me to say this) is the only one coming close to the financial reality we are in - forget all the budget projections and look at the realities - the tax take for January was nearly a billion down on forecast - its going to be even worse this month as companies are closing up shop,letting off all unessential staff and cutting back massively in spending - its a vicious circle thats going to spiral and spiral - Tonys - you should give YD the 100 euros now - the projection of 40 billion income is going to be so far off its a joke - unless there is another budget next month and tax is increased across the board by about 20% -and the Gov are trying to save 2 billion? -and the unions are up in arms - FFS- the tax take is diminishing and diminishing - the real truth of the Celtic tiger post 1999 is that all the additional resources, wage increases and manpower put into the Public Service was financed by the Property Boom and now that is history - Throw in the fact that incomes taxes and any burdens directly on the public were considerably reduced during that time aswell and now you have the receipe for the truly horrendous car crash we are experiencing right now - We lived for today and didnt think about tomorrow - every single one of us - and we would shun any politician who would have tried to tell us any different - in fact we believed that there was even more in the pot that was our due - So I cant blame any political party for the election manifestos that they produced in 2007 - it was what we all wanted to hear - so the general bitching I hear now about the oppositions manifestos is a bit rich - everybodys a fucking genius with 20/20 hindsight - the manifestos were produced for that moment in time - and that is what we wanted to hear loud and clear.

So where do we go from here - not very far going on most responses on the web - everybody is too busy defending their entitlement to the pie and tearing strips off everybody else. Aragons responses dont surprise me - then again I think both of us acknowledge the fact that we live in parallel universes intellectually and politically speaking - but I would like to hear her ideas about what we should do hear from a real left point of view - all we've had so far is the usual demonisation of the percieved rich and lots of shots at the admittedly target rich environment of the Banking sector , nit-picking at anything that FF are doing and anything that the party of the Great Satan (FG) proposes to do - Apart from Eamon (Bob the Builder) Gilmore only postive contribution to the debate (We'll set up a progamme to wrap every house in the country up in two coats of insulation and hey presto all our unemployment problems solved overnight - "get the country moving, get the economy moving,movin,movin,movin- Vote Eamo") - there has been precious little from both the mainstream and fringe left about where the country is going, where they would like to see the country going and where they see the country in 10-15-20 years time - apart from the lots of mass burial sites containing bankers,developers,Yankee Imperialists,Fine Gaelers and Israelis - so I challenge them - come on here and give a coherent,thoughtful response - I am familar with Marx,Engels and the left (I used to be a serious leftie after all!) - you can think outside the box as much as you like (which I thought was the whole raison d'etre of Communism) - you might surprise yourselves and come up with something good that might actually sell on the doorstep- but give us more than the usual OTT denunciations of the "elites"and cheap negative shots at Fine Gael - which for a party that has only been in power for 11 years out of the last 50, normally dealing with the usual shipload of crap left behind by Fianna Fail and in 1994-1997 was part of ,IMO, the most egaliatarian,Financially responsible,socially liberal, Forward looking administration in the countrys history - I really wonder what we do to deserve such unmitigated abuse from the Leftist elite and their fellow travellers in this country - probably something do with the fact that we just wont go away and leave the field open for the arrival of the much anticipated "left wing" arrival, which in true Beckett Fashion , will arrive anyday now - might be more to the point and more profitable to look at the fact that the majority of people in this country who would describe themselves as left of centre voted and have voted for the last 70 years for Fianna Fail and try work out how to untie that particular granny knot.

Anyway back to reality

Well from a personal point of view - I got word from the receiver of my company today that on the completion of his duties in the near future I will get the princely sum of 0 euros from the demise of the company - there is virtually no money in the companies accounts and what there is ,goes to the government -its a limited company so we can't chase the shareholders and anyway they've already lost their entire investment in the company which was not inconsiderable - Yippee -so all I can get is my statutory redundancy, which I have paid for thru my social insurance for such an adventuality - direct from the Government for which I will have to jump through a good few hoops to get - so next stop the Employees tribunal - next available date is August - after that all going well - 12 weeks until the Department pay out - and sods law the next budget will probably cut the amount I can claim , to save money - to pay for the Public services , to pay for my dole probably - which will probably be cut again to pay for the Public services -I have been looking around for alternative employment and reviewing whats available in my line of work - salary offers are coming in at around 25-30% less than I would have expected 2-3 years ago - nearly all perks cut to the bare minimum [- I have been called to 3 interviews so far - no success yet - first one - I turn up at the company to find them all walking out the door with the pink slips as the company went into liquidation on the day of my interview - second one - I was called the evening before I was due to attend to say that the company was rationalising and that the department I was interviewing for was being transferred back to Germany for the forseeable future - 3rd one - Well I actually got to the interview at least! -3/4 way thru it - the interviewer was polite enough and honest enough to tell me that because of cutbacks the position would be filled internally and they were just going thru the legal motions and he said I was doing a great interview and was the best candidate he'd seen, but the decision was out of his hands - I said Fair play to ya, I needed the practice and day out anyway. As you can see its a barrel of laughs in the private sector -at the rate things are going -the Social Welfare office on signing on day will be the social event of the month - you are starting to meet all types there, engineers, architects,estate agents,journalists,sales people - what do they all have in common - their employers are going to the wall - everybody had taken pay cuts - but even this wasnt enough -the country finances and economic activity are drying up at a rate of knots so you can probablyy understand why I look at todays events with a certain degree of disbelief.

What we really need is a politician who is brave enough to stand up and show vision - tell us straight in the eye where just how totally in the crapper we are - tell us where he wants to bring us - where he wants the country and me to be in 10-20 years time,in detail( smaller time spans are utterly pointless and they smack of indecision and fear - we will be crucified for that - if we havent already self-inflicted the mortal wound already) and what we need to do to get there - no matter how tough it might be - if it sounds anyway sane - spreads the pain as much as is possible among all - I'll go along with it - just shut the fuck up about the past - whats done is done - we suck it up, learn our lessons and try and make the future better than today.

Edo wrote:

Auditor #9 wrote:

So have Govt. economists really looked at what's coming ?

It'd be a first - according to Dermo tonight - they were driving along dandy, not a care in the world, and then suddenly in the rear view mirror this calamity appeared out of nowhere at the speed of light

What Dermo actually said (11'45 mins in), when asked if he and the Taoiseach were prepared to accept personal responsibility for what happened was:

Quote :

No one's really responsible. It just happened.

I was utterly shocked that he was so blunt. Even more shocking was the fact that all other panel members let it slide. If the Government thinks this catastrophe 'just happened' then it is impossible for them to fix it. The first stage in recovery is admitting you have a problem and taking repsonsibility for it. This Government can't do that. We need to replace them ASAP.

Fine Gael should be using that quote on all their material for the forseeable future.

Fianna Fáil: "No one's really responsible. It just happened."

coc wrote:

Edo wrote:

Auditor #9 wrote:

So have Govt. economists really looked at what's coming ?

It'd be a first - according to Dermo tonight - they were driving along dandy, not a care in the world, and then suddenly in the rear view mirror this calamity appeared out of nowhere at the speed of light

What Dermo actually said (11'45 mins in), when asked if he and the Taoiseach were prepared to accept personal responsibility for what happened was:

Quote :

No one's really responsible. It just happened.

I was utterly shocked that he was so blunt. Even more shocking was the fact that all other panel members let it slide. If the Government thinks this catastrophe 'just happened' then it is impossible for them to fix it. The first stage in recovery is admitting you have a problem and taking repsonsibility for it. This Government can't do that. We need to replace them ASAP.

Fine Gael should be using that quote on all their material for the forseeable future.

Fianna Fáil: "No one's really responsible. It just happened."

Saw that coc.The other Sharkey came to mind."Happens all the time.It's gonna happen -happen,until you change your mind".However,as you say,the placid passover of Ahern's bald-headed statement was pure mules.A verse from that same Undertones tune co-incidentally illustrates:
"Watching your friends passing by,
Going to sleep without blinking a blue eye.
Too slow to notice what's wrong.
Two faced to you when you're taking them on."

Happens all the time.

[quote="Auditor #9"]Aragon, Edo was addressing you somewhere in there ....

Edo wrote:

Well typing away as I am from a snowbound(until 1 hour ago) hideway up the side of Mount Leinster - the whole conversation here and over at the other place has an air of total unreality about it - Do people actually realise the seriousness of the situation the whole country is in?

Both my folks are retired public servants - My Dad woke up this morning fully prepared to have his pension reduced by about 10-15% - he is totally non-political and politicians in general do his head in so he doesn't get involved - but he was an honours maths and physics teacher and union rep and he has an unerring capacity to spot a bullshitter a mile off and he can do his sums - he is stunned that he wont be effected his time around and he thinks the whole political and union cabal are completely away with the fairies in they think this tinkering around the edges is going to do anything - this is like taking an aspirin to treat gangrene - It is time that the brutal facts of the dire situation we are in were put central stage in simple black and white primary school mathematics.

(Snip)

I agree with much of what you say here Edo only from a different perspective. You father is right that the government is merely tinkering around the edges. He's right too that we do not seem to have a single politician with the imagination and vision to address this situation. That said, it is ridiculous to believe that there is a 'great man' out there who can single-handedly ''lead' us all into the promised land. This is a job for collective input. One of the biggest lies being pedalled at the moment is that there has been a shortage of alternative ideas put forward for how to resolve this situation. What is really meant by that is that there is a shortage of alternatives that the government and, yes, the filthy stinking rich are prepared to contemplate.

What few people seem to really grasp is that this is a crisis of the rich being foisted on the poor. We've just watched them hand over everything we own for two generations at least to shore up the wealthy. Think about it. It is their outrage and panic that is fuelling all of this. It's they who have threatened our jobs and livelihoods unless we do as they say. Has nobody noticed anything obvious? The world's resources are still there, such as they are. What is really threatened is the advantage and monopoly that rich people have over them. Too few people controlling too much within a system that was always predicted to canibalise itself. Queue dire warnings and penalties for the rest of us.

The system is bust. That is the reality which is not being faced. The whole international capitalist system is imploding in front of our eyes and trillions of dollars are being thrown at it in a desperate bid to pretend it ain't so. By the way Edo, as former employee of Dun & Bradstreet, I understand something about forecasting credit bust ups and, contrary to what you say, there were plenty of people forecasting this exact outcome in Ireland several YEARS before it happened. The shit was about to hit the fan back in 2000/1 but the government took steps to delay the evil moment and in the process turned a bad situation into something completely dire. It was hardly clever to have spotted it - so glaringly obvious was the unsustainable reliance on the property sector. The figures were all right there in front of our noses but nobody would listen. Even on a personal basis, several people posted several comments about this on p.ie almost three years ago and were ridiculed as (yawn) loony lefties and so forth.

We have to forget all about the way have lived in the past and take a completely new look at how we manage resources. If people are only to survive, it HAS to be a collective, bottom up responsibility centred around local and regional centres of administration. It is now about the fundamentals, such as housing, food, clothing, health, education etc. We have to reassess our public administration based on the principle of need and not on greed. People will have to give up the idea that they can enjoy material advantage over others. That pernicious cancerous notion is what has put the whole world out of health as it was always inevitably going to do. It has been fashionable to sneer at Marx too, who is not perfect, but neither was he wrong, fundamentally. A lot of people are annoyed about having to admit that, but there you go.

Resources will have to be managed equitably or people will, literally, be dying in the streets and hedgerows of Ireland once more. Of course this will be sneered at just as posts about impending financial disaster were sneered at before. Nevertheless, the western capitalist/democracy (oxymoron though that is) is over. What we are witnessing is a macabre dance of death. If governments do not adequately readjust what they are doing along these lines, there will very likely be violence and mayhem from the dispossessed.

Assinine institutions such as the stock exchange and all the financial thuggery that goes with it will have to be completely shut down - well they're going to die off anyway but it would be better to do the reponsible thing and proactively shut down everything bar basic co-operative style banking services. The whole monetary system will have to be pared back to basics with rigorous, community monitored control over what they do.

In this scenario, in Ireland, we are actually better off than in many other places. We have a good climate and can produce enough food to feed ourselves if it is managed carefully and in an environmentally friendly way. (GM cropping will fuck that up completely btw). This is an area in which there could be greatly increased employment opportunities. Regional communities could so easily devise plans for optimising the use of land for this purpose. A country that is self-sufficient in food, is on top of the world. We dont need to import food to survive and very likely would have enough for an export market or exchange. Getting to self-sufficiency in this regard should be a major priority. There are many constructive things that we could do. Managing the transition to this state would require skill and committment but it certainly could be done.

And no, this is not 'utopia'. It's just a fairer way of doing things which, although it will have its own problems, will nevertheless optimise the standard of living for the greatest number of people. It will make for perfectly happy lives, with many opportunities for self-fulfilment, innovation and individuality contrary to the crass caricatures of those who fear losing their greedy material privileges - revolting people.

Think of it this way, if your plane crashes on a mountain top and miraculously you all live through it, what do people instincitvely do in order to survive? They work out how much food and water they have, divide it up equally and ensure that everybody has a chance. When you invite guests around to dinner do you apportion the food according to who has the best job or is the most successful? Of course not! So why do we leave our homes and behave like selfish pigs about the world's resources? Why have we institutionalised and embraced behaviour which we would not condone in our own homes. It is actually as simple as that when it comes down to it. This is a plane crash and we need to look out for each other, all of us. We need to reject the infantilised role that governments have imposed on us and start setting up real people-driven democracies that never lose sight of the plane crash scenario. We are all looking at the failure of Brian Cowen and Fianna Fail and pointing fingers but another glaring truth is staring us in the face: it should never, ever have been the case that we handed so much unaccountable power over our own lives to such a small group of people.

Every man and woman should be put on the average industrial wage. All money over and above a modest amount of savings should be sequestered by the banks and put back into the public purse. Nobody should be allowed to go homeless or hungry. Education and health should be free to everyone - and everyone should work. There are many ways that labour can be offered but the best model I've read about would allow people both to train and work in their chosen fields but also to contribute to essential community effort/labour. This is not, again, about utopia. It's about optimising the possibilities for the most people. Enviornmentalism should be embraced. Those who are not familiar with its potential usually sneer at this too but it's true there is massive economic and labour potential there.

Sadly, it seems very likely that our governments will turn violent against us before they will concede to a system like this. There are too many vested interests who want to hold onto their disproprotionate share of our resources. And too many useful idiots in the middle section of society who are prepared to back them up, because they dream one day of being filthy stinking rich too. They have armies and weapons that they will use against us at the drop of a hat. Civil unrest is already happening around the world. Last week The Irish Times ran an editorial which, without a trace of irony, was recommending tighter 'criminal' controls for those who were desperate enough to loot shops. They view us as the enemy - but a useful enemy in much the same way that anti US factions in Iraq were nevertheless recruited to do the work of the US government there - even though it was ultimately not in their collective interests to do so at all. That country's resources are now securely in the hands of the US, protected by permanent military bases. Which brings my to my last point. We should renationalise all of our gas and oil resources. But if anyone here thinks the US wouldnt do to us what they did to Iraq in order to get at them, then they are a fool. But that's capitalism for you: it needs its fools - lot's of em.

Good post Aragon - credit where credit is due - and much to ponder there

like yourself - I have been bleating on about the non-sustainability of the model we (and the English Speaking West) were following for the last 10 years and was dismissed as a killjoy and crank - read any of my posts on AAM,the pin and p.ie and other fora where I loitered for a while and you'll get my drift.

Was the rise in unemployment factored into the figures yesterday ?

Auditor #9 wrote:

Was the rise in unemployment factored into the figures yesterday ?

I dont think Cowen specifically stated that it was, though he did mention rising unemployment along the way. It would be crazy if it were not - they must surely have been working to some projection on that front? Mind you, if they are down 1billion on the tx take on their estimates for January alone, what on earth does that mean for any of their figures? It seems they might as well be plucking them out of thin air - pick the number you first thought of sort of thing.

Hard to disagree with any of that Aragon, but it is not going to happen without blood in the streets.

I think Ireland is lucky that we are not a heavily militarised society like the US or France or England. When the ordinary people cry 'enough' the Government won't be able to resist. Thankfully most of our resources (land, rivers, seas) can not just be extracted off to the Bahamas or wherever these boyos will go when the last helicopter lifts them off the roof of the American embassy

I don't think people will tolerate joblessness, homelessness, hunger, lack of education for their children or lack of hospitals for the elderly. I don't think the State here has the resources to protect the interests of the ruling class. But people are going to have to erect barricades and face the b*stards down in the streets before the old order is swept away. We are not there yet. It would be nice if the Government plotted a 5 or 10 year transition to a post-capitalist system and we could move in an orderly fashion to securing food and energy independance. We are really living in the Garden of Eden and there's plenty for everyone, but the age of growth-for-growths-sake is over.

Aragon wrote:

Auditor #9 wrote:

Was the rise in unemployment factored into the figures yesterday ?

I dont think Cowen specifically stated that it was, though he did mention rising unemployment along the way. It would be crazy if it were not - they must surely have been working to some projection on that front? Mind you, if they are down 1billion on the tx take on their estimates for January alone, what on earth does that mean for any of their figures? It seems they might as well be plucking them out of thin air - pick the number you first thought of sort of thing.

They are not down 1 billion on their estimates, the tax take for this Jan is down 900,000 odd from LAST Jan.

Your other post above is gas talking about changing the system we live with. Yesterday if you worked in the public service you were asked to contribute 25% to your own pension and you had a conniption, but you think changing everything else would be dandy.
Can I ask you again, who pays for public service pensions if not the taxpayer?

Good post indeed Aragon. Other people in other parts of the world have been paying for years to maintain what we take for granted here. Now the markets have pushed into every corner of the world to keep going, but mechanisation and rising costs couldn't be avoided. Collapse of profits is leading to productive capacity and people being taken out of the system and put on the scrap heap. The scale of the implosion is on a level that there is no room for a middle class with its aspirations and people at the bottom are being hit along with the middle class.

New solutions are needed and they aren't ready made. There are some things that have worked up to a point in isolated workers states, but Ireland is too small to go it alone for long I think, unless at the level of Cuba - at least their life expectancy is good. Basically, we need a state that is controlled by the majority and that can provide the basics of food, fuel and housing, health and education.

Its a world problem and the choice is going to be to move to a non-profit based system, taken out of the hands of the present incumbents and owned and controlled by the ordinary working majority of people, or else they will drag us into war. The US and the UK are already roaring at each other behind the scenes over protectionism. People will have to make alliances across state borders and support each other.

When something is broken like this, and people reach the point of realising its not fixable and needs replacement a different type of thinking can start and new solutions found.

tonys wrote:

Aragon wrote:

Auditor #9 wrote:

Was the rise in unemployment factored into the figures yesterday ?

I dont think Cowen specifically stated that it was, though he did mention rising unemployment along the way. It would be crazy if it were not - they must surely have been working to some projection on that front? Mind you, if they are down 1billion on the tx take on their estimates for January alone, what on earth does that mean for any of their figures? It seems they might as well be plucking them out of thin air - pick the number you first thought of sort of thing.

They are not down 1 billion on their estimates, the tax take for this Jan is down 900,000 odd from LAST Jan.

Your other post above is gas talking about changing the system we live with. Yesterday if you worked in the public service you were asked to contribute 25% to your own pension and you had a conniption, but you think changing everything else would be dandy.
Can I ask you again, who pays for public service pensions if not the taxpayer?

You have to read posts properly tony. There is nothing inconsistent between my post today and what I said yesterday. The deductions from working people's income within the present system are inequitable. The proposals above are completely different. Health, education and housing would be guaranteed eg.

What I heard on the television yesterday was that the tax revenues were down 1 billion on last January's - compared to what was expected - i.e. a shortfall was expected but not as severe as it turned out to be. I didnt say it, it was a journalist on the telly whose name I don't know - but he is very good looking - this might identify him to some other people here. (CF? Anyone?)

I have indeed posted about pensions and answered that question. I think your attitude to people and their plight is offensive and discriminatory in the extreme - as I said before, your loayalty to Fianna Fail is so extreme and unreasoning it is doubtful whether you would object if the entire FF cabinet were to commit cold blooded murder in front of your eyes. You'd find some way of blaming the victims. That is my personal impression. There is no point in us engaging further on this really.

cactus flower wrote:

Good post indeed Aragon. Other people in other parts of the world have been paying for years to maintain what we take for granted here. Now the markets have pushed into every corner of the world to keep going, but mechanisation and rising costs couldn't be avoided. Collapse of profits is leading to productive capacity and people being taken out of the system and put on the scrap heap. The scale of the implosion is on a level that there is no room for a middle class with its aspirations and people at the bottom are being hit along with the middle class.

New solutions are needed and they aren't ready made. There are some things that have worked up to a point in isolated workers states, but Ireland is too small to go it alone for long I think, unless at the level of Cuba - at least their life expectancy is good. Basically, we need a state that is controlled by the majority and that can provide the basics of food, fuel and housing, health and education.

Its a world problem and the choice is going to be to move to a non-profit based system, taken out of the hands of the present incumbents and owned and controlled by the ordinary working majority of people, or else they will drag us into war. The US and the UK are already roaring at each other behind the scenes over protectionism. People will have to make alliances across state borders and support each other.

When something is broken like this, and people reach the point of realising its not fixable and needs replacement a different type of thinking can start and new solutions found.

Here's what someone posted on the property pin - basically saying right wing anarchism is taking over - it's a bit scary - but is this really what is happening? It does look a bit like it:

" Ref:http://www.mises.org/story/3318

"The government today is marshalling every resource and every means at its disposal to prop up a failing system of the past. Meanwhile, we live in completely new times. These new times are characterized by an international division of labor, global capital flows, digital information delivery, and the slow but systematic destruction of the establishment in media, banking, and finances. What is emerging to replace them is something that no government on the planet can stop. Markets will not be crushed and they resist control as never before.

These new times are not the 1930s when a few eggheads in Washington could set most prices and wages and gather the captains of industry to cobble together business cartels. The economic and financial world moves at the speed of light and is so diffuse that no political authority can act quickly enough to control it. The establishment is going down. This is another reason that all believers in freedom have reason to rejoice today.' "

"Let Banks Fail"


On the other hand, another Pin article dug out of the Telegraph says this

Quote :

The Government should allow every distressed bank to go bankrupt and set up a fresh banking system under temporary state control rather than cripple the country by propping up a corrupt edifice, according to Joseph Stiglitz, the Nobel Prize-winning economist.

Time to wipe the slate clean and start again? New World Order or not, there's a clique of arrogant bankers with a vice grip on everyone's goolies and it looks like that side is winning.

http://www.thepropertypin.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=18264

Ireland could only allow major bank failures in the context of a broader European/Global scheme.

We are tied into a currency, we have international debt obligations which are denominated in this currency and we lack sufficient natural resources to default on our international obligations, turn inwards and create our own system from scratch.

Aragon wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

Good post indeed Aragon. Other people in other parts of the world have been paying for years to maintain what we take for granted here. Now the markets have pushed into every corner of the world to keep going, but mechanisation and rising costs couldn't be avoided. Collapse of profits is leading to productive capacity and people being taken out of the system and put on the scrap heap. The scale of the implosion is on a level that there is no room for a middle class with its aspirations and people at the bottom are being hit along with the middle class.

New solutions are needed and they aren't ready made. There are some things that have worked up to a point in isolated workers states, but Ireland is too small to go it alone for long I think, unless at the level of Cuba - at least their life expectancy is good. Basically, we need a state that is controlled by the majority and that can provide the basics of food, fuel and housing, health and education.

Its a world problem and the choice is going to be to move to a non-profit based system, taken out of the hands of the present incumbents and owned and controlled by the ordinary working majority of people, or else they will drag us into war. The US and the UK are already roaring at each other behind the scenes over protectionism. People will have to make alliances across state borders and support each other.

When something is broken like this, and people reach the point of realising its not fixable and needs replacement a different type of thinking can start and new solutions found.

Here's what someone posted on the property pin - basically saying right wing anarchism is taking over - it's a bit scary - but is this really what is happening? It does look a bit like it:

" Ref:http://www.mises.org/story/3318

"The government today is marshalling every resource and every means at its disposal to prop up a failing system of the past. Meanwhile, we live in completely new times. These new times are characterized by an international division of labor, global capital flows, digital information delivery, and the slow but systematic destruction of the establishment in media, banking, and finances. What is emerging to replace them is something that no government on the planet can stop. Markets will not be crushed and they resist control as never before.

These new times are not the 1930s when a few eggheads in Washington could set most prices and wages and gather the captains of industry to cobble together business cartels. The economic and financial world moves at the speed of light and is so diffuse that no political authority can act quickly enough to control it. The establishment is going down. This is another reason that all believers in freedom have reason to rejoice today.' "

Does anyone have a link to Stiglitz or the Irish Times?


Davos showed that the people who currently run this thing have no notion how to deal with it and are confused and depressed. Your Irish Times editorial of "buy more batons" is about the limits of the thinking. The idea of wiping out the banks and all debt and starting again with a state run banking system has some merit, but not if it means just doing the same thing all over again. The whole basis of the system is not far from a pyramid scheme as it demands exponentially growing amounts of capital, irrespective of need or environmental capacity. We need somenthing that will balance supply with demand - perhaps we have the IT now that would make that possible.

The USSR - all kinds of things very wrong there. But it was an undeveloped impoverished country in 1917 and surrounded by hostile states. At the end of the day, for all the self serving nature of its government from Stalin on, since the collapse of the USSR life expectancy and living standards have deteriorated seriously, under the kind advices of the IMF.

The world isn't ending despite the plethora of programs about meteors and gamma rays destroying the human race that seem to populate the supposed learning channels on Sky. Indeed, the current economic crisis will end at some time, although it does seem things are getting worse at the moment. However, if you went around Monaghan you wouldn't notice too much in the way of recession and there as many, if not more, newly registered auto and vans of every description on the roads as there were during the boom. Money is being spent. I suppose the real long-term damage won't be known until things stabalise. I read somewhere that c. 50 million Americans will officially be below the poverty level at the end of this recession and 10s of millions more will see their standard of living drop. This trend has been increasing for decades and doesn't look to be abating.

Personally I'm beginning to find the entire episode amusing. There's blame being flung from every corner and at every conceivable person or organisation. The diatribe against the left (whoever they are) particularly envoked a smile. They didn't create this mess in any manner yet are supposed to come up with the cure(s). Why the fuck should they. While communism had the decency to go the way of the dinosaur, we'll still be told that capitalism equals prosperity. All the while the same feckers (for the most part) will still reap the majority of the prosperity. The laws, the glamour media and politicians will ensure that pretty much nothing will change. Davos was a charade. These same "experts" have been meeting for decades and their only solution was to increase debt loads in order to ensure industry could turn of profit. (On a side note, there were plently of people concerned about the economy for years but they were called unpatriotic, doom-mongers or incompetent. No main party begged to differ from the common script.)

As long as we can buy useless shite, like €2 t-shirts or consume a microwave meal, we're pretty much happy to slog along. We don't think about how these prices are achieved or what social and environmental costs are associated in our daily pilgrimage to acquire. And if you don't have a dime buddy, there was somebody with OPM (other people's money) to give you a loan. Consume today, damn tomorrow.

We're all pretty familiar with the capitalist iconic authors and know the fundamentals of how the system works. We're told that one day all the inefficiencies will be banished and the free hand of the market will create untold prosperity. We just had a full decade of this market and things aren't looking so rosy. While I firmly believe that Communism's main failing was the inability to take into account fundamental human behavior, it at least put some manners on the capitalists who found it necessary to "spread" the wealth that millions helped to create. I also firmly believe since the demise to an alternative to capitalism, as it has been practiced for the last 20 years, that the same human frailties will undermine the capitalist system as constituted. The quicker the better.

Personally, I don't give a fig about the politicians or their parties. The best I can hope for is that they don't screw things up too much in the near future. I have no interest in them and I just hope all the gamma-ray parties remain firmly focused on their own narrow interests while ignoring ordinary people who've lost all interest in what supposedly they stand for and what they say. The can come up with all the fork-tongued bullshite they want as long as they don't pish in my vegitable patch.

cactus flower wrote:

Aragon wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

Good post indeed Aragon. Other people in other parts of the world have been paying for years to maintain what we take for granted here. Now the markets have pushed into every corner of the world to keep going, but mechanisation and rising costs couldn't be avoided. Collapse of profits is leading to productive capacity and people being taken out of the system and put on the scrap heap. The scale of the implosion is on a level that there is no room for a middle class with its aspirations and people at the bottom are being hit along with the middle class.

New solutions are needed and they aren't ready made. There are some things that have worked up to a point in isolated workers states, but Ireland is too small to go it alone for long I think, unless at the level of Cuba - at least their life expectancy is good. Basically, we need a state that is controlled by the majority and that can provide the basics of food, fuel and housing, health and education.

Its a world problem and the choice is going to be to move to a non-profit based system, taken out of the hands of the present incumbents and owned and controlled by the ordinary working majority of people, or else they will drag us into war. The US and the UK are already roaring at each other behind the scenes over protectionism. People will have to make alliances across state borders and support each other.

When something is broken like this, and people reach the point of realising its not fixable and needs replacement a different type of thinking can start and new solutions found.

Here's what someone posted on the property pin - basically saying right wing anarchism is taking over - it's a bit scary - but is this really what is happening? It does look a bit like it:

" Ref:http://www.mises.org/story/3318

"The government today is marshalling every resource and every means at its disposal to prop up a failing system of the past. Meanwhile, we live in completely new times. These new times are characterized by an international division of labor, global capital flows, digital information delivery, and the slow but systematic destruction of the establishment in media, banking, and finances. What is emerging to replace them is something that no government on the planet can stop. Markets will not be crushed and they resist control as never before.

These new times are not the 1930s when a few eggheads in Washington could set most prices and wages and gather the captains of industry to cobble together business cartels. The economic and financial world moves at the speed of light and is so diffuse that no political authority can act quickly enough to control it. The establishment is going down. This is another reason that all believers in freedom have reason to rejoice today.' "

Does anyone have a link to Stiglitz or the Irish Times?


Davos showed that the people who currently run this thing have no notion how to deal with it and are confused and depressed. Your Irish Times editorial of "buy more batons" is about the limits of the thinking. The idea of wiping out the banks and all debt and starting again with a state run banking system has some merit, but not if it means just doing the same thing all over again. The whole basis of the system is not far from a pyramid scheme as it demands exponentially growing amounts of capital, irrespective of need or environmental capacity. We need somenthing that will balance supply with demand - perhaps we have the IT now that would make that possible.

Agree completely - the last thing we want is Russian or Chinese style-communism. There is however a good case to be made for saying that these communist countries would have evolved much more healthily if they had not been under such extreme external threats and pressures. They became defensive and secretive, and terrified of threats from within that might help their external enemies. This is a rotten collective frame of mind from within which to try to do anything. Which leads back to a point you made earlier. Whatever system might be put in place, it really needs to be universal or mutually cooperative if it is to flourish in peace. The key principle to hold onto is that of bottom-up, fully accountable democracy. Chomsky admires Rosa Luxemburg who was fierce in her advocacy for exactly that and was horrified by the way the socialist project went in the end - she aniticipated more or less the eventual outcome - a mirror image of the authoritarian, imperialist states like US and UK in many respects. The difference between them being of course that the latter visited their violence on other people while the former visited it on their own. Both as ghastly as each other, really. At any rate, we were all a bit premature to be celebrating the demise of Russian communism. There must be some people over there who are dancing in the streets at the spectacle of what we've done to ourselves here.