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 Its payback time - Lisbon pays for Nice

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PostSubject: Re: Its payback time - Lisbon pays for Nice   Thu May 08, 2008 2:27 pm

Cheer up edo! It's early days yet! When the 'Yes' campaign gets into full swing things will improve. Despite my personal dislike of Bertie, he'll be an invaluable asset to the 'Yes' campaign if he goes 'round the country campaigning hard for a 'Yes' vote.

When people start to hear the opposition parties being critical of the government but still campaigning for a 'Yes' they'll get the message that voting for Lisbon isn't a vote for the government.

There are very mixed attitudes to immigration in Ireland - most people now have friends (or at least workmates that they like) who are immigrants.

The attitude in rural Ireland and in smaller towns is much more positive than in parts of the bigger cities. I've read your post about the change in attitude in your home town, but I wouldn't pay much heed to what fellas in a pub say.
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PostSubject: Re: Its payback time - Lisbon pays for Nice   Thu May 08, 2008 9:23 pm

As I read about this Lisbon treaty I am much amused to find out that possibly the biggest oil man in the world is going round Ireland asking people to vote yes. This fine man also is a top Bilderberger. What a laugh if people fall for this beauty.
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PostSubject: Re: Its payback time - Lisbon pays for Nice   Fri May 09, 2008 12:32 am

seinfeld wrote:
In fact, in the past, provisions of Finance Acts have been found to be unconstitutional, but no such finding has ever been made about an EU Treaty.

Anthony Coughlan, Raymond Crotty and Patricia McKenna have all taken successful actions regarding treaties.
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PostSubject: Re: Its payback time - Lisbon pays for Nice   Fri May 09, 2008 12:44 am

Kate P wrote:
seinfeld wrote
Quote :
In fact, in the past, provisions of Finance Acts have been found to be unconstitutional, but no such finding has ever been made about an EU Treaty.

Anthony Coughlan, Raymond Crotty and Patricia McKenna have all taken successful actions regarding treaties.

Regarding their ratification, rather.
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PostSubject: Re: Its payback time - Lisbon pays for Nice   Fri May 09, 2008 12:55 am

Kate P wrote:
seinfeld wrote
Quote :
In fact, in the past, provisions of Finance Acts have been found to be unconstitutional, but no such finding has ever been made about an EU Treaty.

Anthony Coughlan, Raymond Crotty and Patricia McKenna have all taken successful actions regarding treaties.

Crotty sought an injunction preventing the Government from ratifying the SEA. The Oireachtas had not ratified the SEA at that time. Had it done, the SEA would have been found to be unconstitutional, but it only became part of Irish legislation after the constitution had been amended.

Coughlan/McKenna sought an injunction preventing the Government from spending state funds on promoting a particular vote in a Referendum on Nice. No part of that Treaty was found to be unconstitutional.

On the contrary, numerous sections of Acts passed by the Oireachtas have been found to be unconstitutional, yet there is never a clamour to put Bills before the people in Referenda.

If we have already amended the Constitution to allow the Oireachtas transpose EU Law into Irish Law, why are we amending it again?
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PostSubject: Re: Its payback time - Lisbon pays for Nice   Fri May 09, 2008 1:16 am

seinfeld wrote:
Kate P wrote:
seinfeld wrote
Quote :
In fact, in the past, provisions of Finance Acts have been found to be unconstitutional, but no such finding has ever been made about an EU Treaty.

Anthony Coughlan, Raymond Crotty and Patricia McKenna have all taken successful actions regarding treaties.

Crotty sought an injunction preventing the Government from ratifying the SEA. The Oireachtas had not ratified the SEA at that time. Had it done, the SEA would have been found to be unconstitutional, but it only became part of Irish legislation after the constitution had been amended.

Coughlan/McKenna sought an injunction preventing the Government from spending state funds on promoting a particular vote in a Referendum on Nice. No part of that Treaty was found to be unconstitutional.

On the contrary, numerous sections of Acts passed by the Oireachtas have been found to be unconstitutional, yet there is never a clamour to put Bills before the people in Referenda.

If we have already amended the Constitution to allow the Oireachtas transpose EU Law into Irish Law, why are we amending it again?

Essentially, for the sake of safety - oddly enough. It's the same argument that applies in respect of the "self-amending" article in the Treaty. The government could try simply ratifying some of the amendments in the Oireachtas, but they'll want to be pretty certain it's watertight, since otherwise the ratification will be subject to potentially being found unconstitutional - as well as the electoral backlash.
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PostSubject: Re: Its payback time - Lisbon pays for Nice   Fri May 09, 2008 2:01 am

ibis wrote:
seinfeld wrote:
Kate P wrote:
seinfeld wrote
Quote :
In fact, in the past, provisions of Finance Acts have been found to be unconstitutional, but no such finding has ever been made about an EU Treaty.

Anthony Coughlan, Raymond Crotty and Patricia McKenna have all taken successful actions regarding treaties.

Crotty sought an injunction preventing the Government from ratifying the SEA. The Oireachtas had not ratified the SEA at that time. Had it done, the SEA would have been found to be unconstitutional, but it only became part of Irish legislation after the constitution had been amended.

Coughlan/McKenna sought an injunction preventing the Government from spending state funds on promoting a particular vote in a Referendum on Nice. No part of that Treaty was found to be unconstitutional.

On the contrary, numerous sections of Acts passed by the Oireachtas have been found to be unconstitutional, yet there is never a clamour to put Bills before the people in Referenda.

If we have already amended the Constitution to allow the Oireachtas transpose EU Law into Irish Law, why are we amending it again?

Essentially, for the sake of safety - oddly enough. It's the same argument that applies in respect of the "self-amending" article in the Treaty. The government could try simply ratifying some of the amendments in the Oireachtas, but they'll want to be pretty certain it's watertight, since otherwise the ratification will be subject to potentially being found unconstitutional - as well as the electoral backlash.

I'd love to know why this isn't a concern for the other 26 members of the EU.

If the referendum fails, I imagine the Oireachtas will seek to ratify the essential parts of the Treaty piecemeal, and send the AG down to the 4 Courts if the need arises.

I really can't see that they have any other option.
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PostSubject: Re: Its payback time - Lisbon pays for Nice   Fri May 09, 2008 2:07 am

corkman2007 wrote:
Cheer up edo! It's early days yet! When the 'Yes' campaign gets into full swing things will improve. Despite my personal dislike of Bertie, he'll be an invaluable asset to the 'Yes' campaign if he goes 'round the country campaigning hard for a 'Yes' vote.

When people start to hear the opposition parties being critical of the government but still campaigning for a 'Yes' they'll get the message that voting for Lisbon isn't a vote for the government.

There are very mixed attitudes to immigration in Ireland - most people now have friends (or at least workmates that they like) who are immigrants.

The attitude in rural Ireland and in smaller towns is much more positive than in parts of the bigger cities. I've read your post about the change in attitude in your home town, but I wouldn't pay much heed to what fellas in a pub say.

Hows it going Corkman - fancy seeing you over here!

I am cheering up a bit today - met 3 people today who said they are going to vote Yes and they are non political people including a taxi driver! - I guess it will be up and down for the next six weeks I'd say.

Second bit of good news was by far the most pleasurable - As you might have heard I was given my redundancy notice last week with 6 weeks to clear out - Well today there has been a change of heart after the slaughter last week and they have come crawling back to me to say they think they made a bit of mistake in hindsight and would I mind staying on!!!!!!!!!!!!!- Fckn Hell - So I said yes after negotiating the biggest salary increase and improvement in conditions any industrial worker in this state will get this year - might only be a temporary reprieve if the big orders dont come in - but I've got breathing space and a big payout if things turn ugly again.

Yes the tide is turning - I can feel it!
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PostSubject: Re: Its payback time - Lisbon pays for Nice   Fri May 09, 2008 2:10 am

Edo wrote:
corkman2007 wrote:
Cheer up edo! It's early days yet! When the 'Yes' campaign gets into full swing things will improve. Despite my personal dislike of Bertie, he'll be an invaluable asset to the 'Yes' campaign if he goes 'round the country campaigning hard for a 'Yes' vote.

When people start to hear the opposition parties being critical of the government but still campaigning for a 'Yes' they'll get the message that voting for Lisbon isn't a vote for the government.

There are very mixed attitudes to immigration in Ireland - most people now have friends (or at least workmates that they like) who are immigrants.

The attitude in rural Ireland and in smaller towns is much more positive than in parts of the bigger cities. I've read your post about the change in attitude in your home town, but I wouldn't pay much heed to what fellas in a pub say.

Hows it going Corkman - fancy seeing you over here!

I am cheering up a bit today - met 3 people today who said they are going to vote Yes and they are non political people including a taxi driver! - I guess it will be up and down for the next six weeks I'd say.

Second bit of good news was by far the most pleasurable - As you might have heard I was given my redundancy notice last week with 6 weeks to clear out - Well today there has been a change of heart after the slaughter last week and they have come crawling back to me to say they think they made a bit of mistake in hindsight and would I mind staying on!!!!!!!!!!!!!- Fckn Hell - So I said yes after negotiating the biggest salary increase and improvement in conditions any industrial worker in this state will get this year - might only be a temporary reprieve if the big orders dont come in - but I've got breathing space and a big payout if things turn ugly again.

Yes the tide is turning - I can feel it!

It's great to hear of your good fortunes Edo, you deserve it. To add to your good cheer, the Yes vote is now clearly leading on the MN Poll as well.
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PostSubject: Re: Its payback time - Lisbon pays for Nice   Fri May 09, 2008 2:10 am

Very Happy

Delighted to hear it Edo. If it wasn't for this excellent news you would have been offered Enterprise in the Machine Nation fantasy cabinet, but I guess you will be too busy now.


Last edited by cactus flower on Fri May 09, 2008 2:11 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : sp. it must be the weissbier)
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PostSubject: Re: Its payback time - Lisbon pays for Nice   Fri May 09, 2008 2:18 am

cactus flower wrote:
Very Happy

Delighted to hear it Edo. If it wasn't for this excellent news you would have been offered Enterprise in the Machine Nation fantasy cabinet, but I guess you will be too busy now.

Thanks CF , Thanks Ard - yep its been an interesting month so far alright.

Enterprise portfolio in the cabinet eh? - Nah - thanks for the offer anyway - if I went into politics I've always fancied myself as that grumpy eccentric backbencher who just can't be trusted to say the right thing politically - but now and again might hit the mark on the issue of the day!
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PostSubject: Re: Its payback time - Lisbon pays for Nice   Fri May 09, 2008 2:21 am

Edo wrote:


Thanks CF , Thanks Ard - yep its been an interesting month so far alright.

You're welcome Edo, and as a further note of good cheer, I'm feeling more positively disposed to the Treaty myself!
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PostSubject: Re: Its payback time - Lisbon pays for Nice   Fri May 09, 2008 2:29 am

Edo wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
Very Happy

Delighted to hear it Edo. If it wasn't for this excellent news you would have been offered Enterprise in the Machine Nation fantasy cabinet, but I guess you will be too busy now.

Thanks CF , Thanks Ard - yep its been an interesting month so far alright.

Enterprise portfolio in the cabinet eh? - Nah - thanks for the offer anyway - if I went into politics I've always fancied myself as that grumpy eccentric backbencher who just can't be trusted to say the right thing politically - but now and again might hit the mark on the issue of the day!

Congratulations then, Tony Benn!
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PostSubject: Re: Its payback time - Lisbon pays for Nice   Fri May 09, 2008 2:32 am

I was thinking more on Winston Churchill lines - but hey you could have said John Deasy!

I like Tony Benn and lets be honest he has defined eccentric backbencher for our times anyway!
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PostSubject: Re: Its payback time - Lisbon pays for Nice   Fri May 09, 2008 2:47 am

Edo wrote:
I was thinking more on Winston Churchill lines - but hey you could have said John Deasy!

I like Tony Benn and lets be honest he has defined eccentric backbencher for our times anyway!

Who is John Deasy?
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PostSubject: Re: Its payback time - Lisbon pays for Nice   Fri May 09, 2008 4:22 pm

Devestatingly honest posting by Edo.. but then I expect nothing less from him

He's dead right.. the Lisbon Treaty is very much in danger of being voted down.. and for reasons not to do with the Treaty itself.. but on the other hand.. do people here believe that the Irish people know what they were really voting for with Nice... Maastricht.. Amsterdam ?

Not on your nelly.. 95% of people in Ireland don't have a clue what's in any EU Treaty.. no more than they know what's in party policy documents at election time.. nor do they care

Irish people have very simple voting habits, based around

1. Am I a life long party supporter

2. How is the economy normally when whatever crowd are in Government

3. Did candidate a/b/c get me, or my family, or anyone I know, a medical card, student grant etc etc etc

We still constantly fight over the minute differences between FF and FG, because the reality is.. there are only minute differences policy wise (leave integrity and all that out of it)

Basically this Government sold Nice 2.. and I was there campaigning against it.. on the basis that

a. the EU money will run out if we don't
b. the ones against it are headbangers
c. sure no-one will come here (Labour's Pat Rabbitte predicted 4,000 IIRC)

and now the country's turning down...

chickens are coming home to roost...
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PostSubject: Re: Its payback time - Lisbon pays for Nice   Fri May 09, 2008 4:39 pm

I am broadly in favour of the Lisbon treaty but I think Edo's post is dead right.

The main parties are paying the price for their lazy approach to previous treaties and for utterly failing to plan for immigration. This problem was created a long time ago with previous treaties. There is nothing to be done about it now. I don't think the main parties can complain too much if people don't trust them to explain it properly.

I will be voting yes but hedging against the blues on betfair.
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PostSubject: Re: Its payback time - Lisbon pays for Nice   Fri May 09, 2008 7:38 pm

Just an observation. Teaching has made me much more pro-immigrant that I`d be likely to have been if I hadn`t been in the job. We need immigrants. I don`t think ,collectively, that the current generation of people who are under their mid twenties will be up to much in terms of hard work and an ability to deal with hardship. It`s not their fault it`s the environment in which they have been raised. For a lot of the kids I come across resentment of foreigners is caused as much (if not more) by a resentment of the expectation of having to work harder to keep up with the foreigner as much as an commitment to racial purity.
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PostSubject: Re: Its payback time - Lisbon pays for Nice   Fri May 09, 2008 8:05 pm

I think there are plenty of people in Ireland who are willing to work hard and I know lots of them. On the other hand it is legitimate for people to stop and look around and make a decision that people should not have to work so hard just to survive. In fact, I would have thought that hard working as a lot of teachers are, a lot of teachers could make better money working harder in the private sector. I respect their choice to follow a vocation for lesser reward instead. While the last generation did work hard they were not working in the instantaneous environment that pervades these days and many will admit that the working environment is a lot more gruelling now. Garret Fitzgerald remarked some time ago that Irish people needed to decide did they want to be utra competitive and wealthy or would they be better off with a little less money, a lower population and a better functioning society. I often feel that, with the way things are going, we have enslaved ourselves to a capitalist system that is increasingly totalitarian in its control of our lives.
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PostSubject: Re: Its payback time - Lisbon pays for Nice   Fri May 09, 2008 8:42 pm

Zhou_Enlai wrote:
Garret Fitzgerald remarked some time ago that Irish people needed to decide did they want to be utra competitive and wealthy or would they be better off with a little less money, a lower population and a better functioning society. I often feel that, with the way things are going, we have enslaved ourselves to a capitalist system that is increasingly totalitarian in its control of our lives.

I blame television myself.

There's great treatise of the effect of television on our lives in the last few pages of Michael Crichton's book, 'Airframe'. Must dig it up.
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PostSubject: Re: Its payback time - Lisbon pays for Nice   Fri May 09, 2008 11:23 pm

what party are you canvassing for edo?

these people only have themselves and the poeple they voted for to blame.
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PostSubject: Re: Its payback time - Lisbon pays for Nice   Fri May 09, 2008 11:47 pm

It seems most likely that the door was opened because there were serious labour shortages and we were losing competitivity hand over fist.

I came back to Ireland from abroad and had only just got used to everyone looking the same when immigration started. Change is strange but people soon get over it. I think it would be very strange to go back to the monoculture that we used to be. Edo hit the nail on the head when he said it is the middle classes who give out most about immigration. They are more concious of position and pecking order and are rightly frightened of what is happening to the economy and losing their place in the world. And who else would they blame? Surely not as lostexpectation says themselves and the people they voted for.
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PostSubject: Re: Its payback time - Lisbon pays for Nice   Sat May 10, 2008 12:04 am

seinfeld wrote:
Zhou_Enlai wrote:
Garret Fitzgerald remarked some time ago that Irish people needed to decide did they want to be utra competitive and wealthy or would they be better off with a little less money, a lower population and a better functioning society. I often feel that, with the way things are going, we have enslaved ourselves to a capitalist system that is increasingly totalitarian in its control of our lives.

I blame television myself.

There's great treatise of the effect of television on our lives in the last few pages of Michael Crichton's book, 'Airframe'. Must dig it up.

Steven Spielberg who knows a thing or two about the medium only lets his children watch two and a half hours TV a week....
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PostSubject: Re: Its payback time - Lisbon pays for Nice   Sat May 10, 2008 3:03 am

Helium Three wrote:
seinfeld wrote:
Zhou_Enlai wrote:
Garret Fitzgerald remarked some time ago that Irish people needed to decide did they want to be utra competitive and wealthy or would they be better off with a little less money, a lower population and a better functioning society. I often feel that, with the way things are going, we have enslaved ourselves to a capitalist system that is increasingly totalitarian in its control of our lives.

I blame television myself.

There's great treatise of the effect of television on our lives in the last few pages of Michael Crichton's book, 'Airframe'. Must dig it up.

Steven Spielberg who knows a thing or two about the medium only lets his children watch two and a half hours TV a week....

I won't have one in the house - haven't watched any for over 25 years. DVD's are OK, although I've little interest in them.
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PostSubject: Re: Its payback time - Lisbon pays for Nice   Sat May 10, 2008 3:09 am

Helium Three wrote:
seinfeld wrote:
Zhou_Enlai wrote:
Garret Fitzgerald remarked some time ago that Irish people needed to decide did they want to be utra competitive and wealthy or would they be better off with a little less money, a lower population and a better functioning society. I often feel that, with the way things are going, we have enslaved ourselves to a capitalist system that is increasingly totalitarian in its control of our lives.

I blame television myself.

There's great treatise of the effect of television on our lives in the last few pages of Michael Crichton's book, 'Airframe'. Must dig it up.

Steven Spielberg who knows a thing or two about the medium only lets his children watch two and a half hours TV a week....

That's alright for him. He doesn't have to mind them for the other 145 and a half hours.
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