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 Downloading Music

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PostSubject: Re: Downloading Music   Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:48 am

tonys wrote:
Edo wrote:
Sorry Folks - All Im hearing and reading here is people doing verbal/political/social gymnastics to justify what is essentially - when it comes down to it - theft - pure and simple.
Does this surprise you?

Look at this one - free to subscribe!

Adapt or die lads - 'tis the survival law of the jungle, primordial slime, bog, or whereever the organism/organisation interacts with the environment in an open information feedback loop ...

http://www.youtube.com/user/radiohead
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PostSubject: Re: Downloading Music   Tue Jan 06, 2009 3:51 am

Edo wrote:
shutuplaura wrote:
Edo wrote:
Sorry Folks - All Im hearing and reading here is people doing verbal/political/social gymnastics to justify what is essentially - when it comes down to it - theft - pure and simple.

the point is that we know its theft but don't care. like drug use, its a personal choice because the laws are outdated/inadequate/stupid/whatever.

Great stuff - the good old communist/socialist mantra coming to the fore - "whats mine is mine and whats yours is mine" eh?

Must keep that in mind next time I'm placed in a position where renumeration is demanded for some good or service I require - " nah - not paying ya today - ye're too expensive but Im still keeping the goods - I dont agree with this bolloxology about having to pay for things.

Communist! Socialist! Thanks for pigeonholing me you feckin' fascist. There is nothing idealogical about being discerning with my money and playing the percentages in choosing to break a law that doesn't matter a fig to me. Strange that it makes me a commie. There are a lot of commies about nowadays though by your criterion.
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PostSubject: Re: Downloading Music   Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:00 am

shutuplaura wrote:
Communist! Socialist! Thanks for pigeonholing me you feckin' fascist. There is nothing idealogical about being discerning with my money and playing the percentages in choosing to break a law that doesn't matter a fig to me. Strange that it makes me a commie. There are a lot of commies about nowadays though by your criterion.
Exactly.

Thanks bit of Jesus these kind of anti-copying lads weren't around when Lasagne and Tirmisu were thrown together by the Italians otherwise they'd have imposed a licence on the copying of that too.


Last edited by Auditor #9 on Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:13 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Downloading Music   Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:09 am

shutuplaura wrote:
Communist! Socialist! Thanks for pigeonholing me you feckin' fascist. There is nothing idealogical about being discerning with my money and playing the percentages in choosing to break a law that doesn't matter a fig to me. Strange that it makes me a commie. There are a lot of commies about nowadays though by your criterion.
Would you or have you donated money to free bands - amateurs, garage bands and stuff like that? There is a thriving industry in that too if you're into it and most of it is free.

And Oh yeah ...

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PostSubject: Re: Downloading Music   Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:24 am

Auditor #9 wrote:
shutuplaura wrote:
Communist! Socialist! Thanks for pigeonholing me you feckin' fascist. There is nothing idealogical about being discerning with my money and playing the percentages in choosing to break a law that doesn't matter a fig to me. Strange that it makes me a commie. There are a lot of commies about nowadays though by your criterion.
Would you or have you donated money to free bands - amateurs, garage bands and stuff like that? There is a thriving industry in that too if you're into it and most of it is free.

And Oh yeah ...


Yep - I go to lots of gigs and always pay a few quid for the band or Artists CD if they're selling it at the concert.

If a particular artist wants to release their music for free - well fine thats up to them - I have downloaded music from lots of sites where the artist has it for free release or there is a facility to make a donation - I will do so.

Lots of young artists are struggling to make a living from their art - music publishers revenues are collapsing by about 10-20% a year - mostly due to illegal downloading - it comes around - U2 were funded and invested in by their record company for the first 5 years of their existence before they started to make money - whos going to take that risk now? - also for artists to charge for live gigs and so - normally requires them to build up an audience and that takes bucks and exposure.


Last edited by Edo on Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:25 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Downloading Music   Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:24 am

Auditor #9 wrote:


Isn't music meant to be live and copying technology has just saved it from becoming Ivory Towered and locked in a narcissistic little studio-produced world of its own?


Fantastic. If I had the slightest clue what that meant in the real world I'd answer.

I'll attempt an answer anyway. Live music is a very different animal to recorded music. What works in a live situation does not necessarily mean it's going to work in a recorded situation. Apart from the fact that actually capturing that "live" performance properly is a lot easier said than done. Simple fact of the matter is the quality of the product is and will keep on getting worse.

No money is being invested into new artists, record companies expect an artist to re-coup first time out. Artist development as far as record companies are concerned is a thing of the past.

I'm sure it'll all work out in the long run. It's just a matter of finding another way to fleece billy bunter while keeping him happy!
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PostSubject: Re: Downloading Music   Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:26 am

Auditor #9 wrote:
shutuplaura wrote:
Communist! Socialist! Thanks for pigeonholing me you feckin' fascist. There is nothing idealogical about being discerning with my money and playing the percentages in choosing to break a law that doesn't matter a fig to me. Strange that it makes me a commie. There are a lot of commies about nowadays though by your criterion.
Exactly.

Thanks bit of Jesus these kind of anti-copying lads weren't around when Lasagne and Tirmisu were thrown together by the Italians otherwise they'd have imposed a licence on the copying of that too.
And of course one shudders to think what would have to go into creating a forum like this one--that picture in the top left corner, the name the source code, the forum structure, the use of different shades of blue--how many licences would you have to buy so we could have somewhere to chat?!
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PostSubject: Re: Downloading Music   Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:26 am

Auditor #9 wrote:
There is a thriving industry in that too if you're into it and most of it is free.


Thriving Industry? ha-ha-ha!!!
Very funny! Who told you that one?
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PostSubject: Re: Downloading Music   Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:28 am

studiorat wrote:
Auditor #9 wrote:


Isn't music meant to be live and copying technology has just saved it from becoming Ivory Towered and locked in a narcissistic little studio-produced world of its own?


Fantastic. If I had the slightest clue what that meant in the real world I'd answer.

I'll attempt an answer anyway. Live music is a very different animal to recorded music. What works in a live situation does not necessarily mean it's going to work in a recorded situation. Apart from the fact that actually capturing that "live" performance properly is a lot easier said than done. Simple fact of the matter is the quality of the product is and will keep on getting worse.

No money is being invested into new artists, record companies expect an artist to re-coup first time out. Artist development as far as record companies are concerned is a thing of the past.

I'm sure it'll all work out in the long run. It's just a matter of finding another way to fleece billy bunter while keeping him happy!
I can't think of too many artists that would lose heavily to internet piracy on their first run. Mainly because I can't think of many artists that are popular enough on their first run. Manufactured artists like the X-Factor ones might be an exception, but then I think the world could do without them TBH.

EDIT: Except Leona Lewis, she's fantastic, but would most certainly have made it without X-Factor.


Last edited by evercloserunion on Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:52 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Downloading Music   Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:41 am

You don't get it do you?
Each artist doesn't have a little shoe box in the record company with their money from sales in it.

Let's say Madonna for arguments sake makes I dunno 3 million for Warner. She get's her cut, the record company gets their cut and the rest they invest in new talent. The situation now is the companies are only going with the sure fire pop idol shit, cheap to make and a sure seller.

Newer artists specifically bands are not getting a look in. If they do they get no development and when the first record is done and the record co. doesn't think it's a definite seller they cut their losses, drop the band and the record never sees the light of day.

Radiohead for instance didn't re-coup on their first album. If they were signed tomorrow and released Pablo Honey they would be dropped and they would not have got the chance to make the following albums.


Last edited by studiorat on Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:45 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : spellings)
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PostSubject: Re: Downloading Music   Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:51 am

studiorat wrote:
You don't get it do you?
Each artist doesn't have a little shoe box in the record company with their money from sales in it.

Let's say Madonna for arguments sake makes I dunno 3 million for Warner. She get's her cut, the record company gets their cut and the rest they invest in new talent. The situation now is the companies are only going with the sure fire pop idol shit, cheap to make and a sure seller.

Newer artists specifically bands are not getting a look in. If they do they get no development and when the first record is done and the record co. doesn't think it's a definite seller they cut their losses, drop the band and the record never sees the light of day.

Radiohead for instance didn't re-coup on their first album. If they were signed tomorrow and released Pablo Honey they would be dropped and they would not have got the chance to make the following albums.
Yeah, record companies are bastards. We all knew that. So what?
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PostSubject: Re: Downloading Music   Tue Jan 06, 2009 4:58 am

Edo wrote:
Yep - I go to lots of gigs and always pay a few quid for the band or Artists CD if they're selling it at the concert.

If a particular artist wants to release their music for free - well fine thats up to them - I have downloaded music from lots of sites where the artist has it for free release or there is a facility to make a donation - I will do so.

Lots of young artists are struggling to make a living from their art - music publishers revenues are collapsing by about 10-20% a year - mostly due to illegal downloading - it comes around - U2 were funded and invested in by their record company for the first 5 years of their existence before they started to make money - whos going to take that risk now? - also for artists to charge for live gigs and so - normally requires them to build up an audience and that takes bucks and exposure.

Now who exactly is losing out the 10-20% per year? I don't really understand, to be honest, why the band can't record their own stuff themselves and flog it themselves which is why I referred to Radiohead earlier - they told their record producer to go and hop didn't they? Cut out the middleman ... Why was he ever there in the first place?

I'll take a stab at saying why - the Middleman is there because equiptment and promoting used to be a lot more expensive than it is now - another effect of technology and media developments. The Middleman also perhaps had strong connections and contacts in the business but that Mafioso set up has to be changing now and the band and the fans coming closer together without the Church of Mammon in between.

And talent will out - whether it starts with a fella on his own with a violin bow and a saw on Grafton Street or the Benzini brothers and their guitars and antics, that which is worth something to someone will survive and blossom.

studiorat wrote:
Auditor #9 wrote:


Isn't music meant to be live and copying technology has just saved it from becoming Ivory Towered and locked in a narcissistic little studio-produced world of its own?


Fantastic. If I had the slightest clue what that meant in the real world I'd answer.

I'll attempt an answer anyway. Live music is a very different animal to recorded music. What works in a live situation does not necessarily mean it's going to work in a recorded situation. Apart from the fact that actually capturing that "live" performance properly is a lot easier said than done. Simple fact of the matter is the quality of the product is and will keep on getting worse.

No money is being invested into new artists, record companies expect an artist to re-coup first time out. Artist development as far as record companies are concerned is a thing of the past.

I'm sure it'll all work out in the long run. It's just a matter of finding another way to fleece billy bunter while keeping him happy!

Yeah heh heh - thanks for making a stab at what the hell I was talking about there as I wasn't sure myself either. I think I meant though that music i.e. the art has somehow become coupled and tagged and strongly associated with another idea - industry. No matter how much you like them, those mass-produced oil-smathered sunsets just aren't tasty and have no artistic soul or merit whatsoever. If you feel like someone somewhere should pay a set price for that kind of thing, fair enough but I and many others won't.

Art often precedes industry but when it becomes industry it ceases to be art. The institutionalised path that is laid out for bands which includes recording deals. labels and record companies etc. is a production line apparatus in effect. That avenue is the antithesis of creativity and has perhaps dampened the subsequent work of plenty of bands in the past who released refreshing first and second albums.
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PostSubject: Re: Downloading Music   Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:09 am

studiorat wrote:
Auditor #9 wrote:
There is a thriving industry in that too if you're into it and most of it is free.
Thriving Industry? ha-ha-ha!!!
Very funny! Who told you that one?
I predict that the torrential downloading and consumption of music will result in a generation saturated with all kinds of commercial music Up To Now; they will then turn to small, independent artists and groups producing and distributing freely.

This is where the Leona Lewises of the next generation will get their hits.
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PostSubject: Re: Downloading Music   Tue Jan 06, 2009 5:47 am

Auditor #9 wrote:


Now who exactly is losing out the 10-20% per year? I don't really understand, to be honest, why the band can't record their own stuff themselves and flog it themselves which is why I referred to Radiohead earlier - they told their record producer to go and hop didn't they? Cut out the middleman ... Why was he ever there in the first place?

The producer was dumped because they realised it was the engineer who they were working really well with. They bumped him up to producer role. They recorded in a big ole' country manor with enough gear to sink a battleship. The producer is there for different reasons, mainly to guide the band and help them achieve the sounds they want and also to liase with the money and bring the thing in within the budget. If there was no producer they would still be there!!

Auditor #9 wrote:

I'll take a stab at saying why - the Middleman is there because equiptment and promoting used to be a lot more expensive than it is now - another effect of technology and media developments. The Middleman also perhaps had strong connections and contacts in the business but that Mafioso set up has to be changing now and the band and the fans coming closer together without the Church of Mammon in between.

No doubt the technology has become cheaper nearly half for a proper studio. However the cost of living has risen as have rents etc. A studio's main expense used to be the gear now it's the premises, so it works out at about the same. The price of a day in the studio and the staff involved hasn't changed in nearly 15 years...

Auditor #9 wrote:

And talent will out - whether it starts with a fella on his own with a violin bow and a saw on Grafton Street or the Benzini brothers and their guitars and antics, that which is worth something to someone will survive and blossom.

The Benzini's were no stranger to spending lots of money. Apart from Lanois and the band themselves there were 31 people employed during thew course of that first album. Once again the only person who made serious money (lawyer/accountant money!) was Daniel Lanois.

Auditor #9 wrote:

Art often precedes industry but when it becomes industry it ceases to be art. The institutionalised path that is laid out for bands which includes recording deals. labels and record companies etc. is a production line apparatus in effect. That avenue is the antithesis of creativity and has perhaps dampened the subsequent work of plenty of bands in the past who released refreshing first and second albums.

Firstly, it's music. It's much more important than poxy art!!!
The fact of the matter is to make a record requires serious investment. In a situation without a record company where the team involved get a fair wage (about the same as a plumber or carpenter) the whole lot comes in comes in at about €30,000. That's doing it on the cheap, not for free but not far off it either. Add the same again for manafacturing and promotion. Add to that buying onto a tour, equipment and and all the rest you're going to need to sell serious units to break even. Considering you'd pay €500 for a print you can't even compare it to visual art.

I've made a couple of records in my time and I'd love to be able to give the shit away, however I'd also like to be able to eat now and again too!!!! If you can suggest a better business modle I'd be delighted to know about it!!
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PostSubject: Re: Downloading Music   Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:58 am

Hmm, I remain unconvinced Studiorat but you do make a better case that the guy who tried to turn it into a moralistic decision. I do think though that record labels have a patchy at best record of pushing genuinely exciting acts. When they do pick up on something, it seems to me that its usually after word of mouth has already snowballed behind an act.

The way I look at it is records, the advent of LP's, radio playtime and the increased spending power of teenagers changed the music industry. The power and wealth of these musicians was perhaps an abberation that the late twentieth century will be remembered for. Now the music industry is being changed again.
The technology emerging makes illegal downloading so easy and convenient that I really can't see how it will ever be prevented. Trying to do so seems doomed to failure - like the agreement the BBC thrashed out with the muscians union to play a certain amount of live music each week (resulting in those sometimes great BBC sessions Albums that some 1960's groups have) are always bound to fail in the face of peoples desire to save money and do things as cheaply and easily as possible.

As for supporting live muscians, yes, i try to I guess. Going to a gig is supporting them enough though IMO. If a band has a CD for sale and I like their stuff then I'd certainly buy it.

Oh, and one genuinely interesting band that release all their stuff free themselves on their website is the Brian Jonestown Massacre.
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PostSubject: Re: Downloading Music   Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:23 pm

studiorat wrote:
I've made a couple of records in my time and I'd love to be able to give the shit away, however I'd also like to be able to eat now and again too!!!! If you can suggest a better business modle I'd be delighted to know about it!!

Could the next purchasing of online stuff be by donation only ? I'm wondering if a system of 'pennyclicks' wouldn't work for musicians? You'd have to wait 'til youtube evolves a bit more or splits off though. By then the idea of using online money will perhaps have taken on a new ease.

Pennyclicks: on your site you'll have images of money from a penny to a pound and also an image of a donation basket. Users who sign in and drag a coin to your basket have that coin debited from their online account and credited to yours. They'd see a donation bar increase like on wikipedia. Maybe users who donate 10p + get their name credited somewhere?

If you're interested in selling and promoting then you'd sell and promote yourself through your sig for example. How bad could the quality be pf online music? Some amateurs presenting themselves online with minimal equipment can be very excellent. If you get the right amount of views you could be earning a couple of hundred for a demo. People might even like to see a project take shape from the rough stages to the smooth and you could be getting a handful of coins on the way. Besides that it would be promotion for gigging.

I'm not if the pennyclick infrastructure is there yet though. It's only a matter of time before it does though.

edit
the lad who analysed the Satriani/Coldplay music got 100,000 views you know. A penny from each of them could be average...
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PostSubject: Re: Downloading Music   Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:31 pm

Auditor #9 wrote:
studiorat wrote:
I've made a couple of records in my time and I'd love to be able to give the shit away, however I'd also like to be able to eat now and again too!!!! If you can suggest a better business modle I'd be delighted to know about it!!

Could the next purchasing of online stuff be by donation only ? I'm wondering if a system of 'pennyclicks' wouldn't work for musicians? You'd have to wait 'til youtube evolves a bit more or splits off though. By then the idea of using online money will perhaps have taken on a new ease.

Pennyclicks: on your site you'll have images of money from a penny to a pound and also an image of a donation basket. Users who sign in and drag a coin to your basket have that coin debited from their online account and credited to yours. They'd see a donation bar increase like on wikipedia. Maybe users who donate 10p + get their name credited somewhere?

If you're interested in selling and promoting then you'd sell and promote yourself through your sig for example. How bad could the quality be pf online music? Some amateurs presenting themselves online with minimal equipment can be very excellent. If you get the right amount of views you could be earning a couple of hundred for a demo. People might even like to see a project take shape from the rough stages to the smooth and you could be getting a handful of coins on the way. Besides that it would be promotion for gigging.

I'm not if the pennyclick infrastructure is there yet though. It's only a matter of time before it does though.

edit
the lad who analysed the Satriani/Coldplay music got 100,000 views you know. A penny from each of them could be average...
Remember that both Nine Inch Nails and Radiohead made very nice sums of money from selling albums, payment for which was on a completely voluntary basis, in 2008. Radiohead's In Rainbows went on to sell about 3 million copies, with an average price of £4 paid for each. See also http://creativecommons.org/weblog/entry/11947
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PostSubject: Re: Downloading Music   Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:41 pm

I should clarify that I make them for other people. I don't get involved in the marketing etc. Technically I'm a crap musician, more notes in a tramps wallet.

I did consider during the night the notion of placing an ad in the middle of free downloads! "We interupt your enjoyment of this music to bring you a message from our sponsors...". You know you could target your audience pretty easily, acne cream and deodorant for heavy metal. Insurance and pensions for Jazz, that kind of thing.
The way forward I reckon...
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PostSubject: Re: Downloading Music   Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:41 pm

evercloserunion wrote:
Remember that both Nine Inch Nails and Radiohead made very nice sums of money from selling albums, payment for which was on a completely voluntary basis, in 2008. Radiohead's In Rainbows went on to sell about 3 million copies, with an average price of £4 paid for each. See also http://creativecommons.org/weblog/entry/11947
Well there you go, all you need studiorat is to get some money software stuck on your youtube account. If you have any talent you might have a 4-track at least in you if not a whole album. What about promoting yourself principally by utterly prostituting one of your songs half to death first virally then building up some fanbase because of that. I'm telling you youtube could bring a type of income soon - it's the new tv and people will be trawling it for all types of stuff. What else will people be doing in the future (i.e. next year) when there are totally no jobs? It'll keep people from rioting if they can find the Next Big Thing online.

Seriously there are loads of nerds of all kinds out there and they'll be only too happy to support each other even with a penny each click. The fella on the previous link didn't get 100,000 views but rather 300,000 --- Idea . If people were any good then that fella would have a couple of grand because of that alone from pennies. Some chick with a cat could be a millionairess from a 50 second video. The laughing baby would never need to go to school again.

304,000 views for analysing two songs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OEGGFJLpbu4
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PostSubject: Re: Downloading Music   Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:43 pm

Auditor #9 wrote:
Yeah heh heh - thanks for making a stab at what the hell I was talking about there as I wasn't sure myself either. I think I meant though that music i.e. the art has somehow become coupled and tagged and strongly associated with another idea - industry. No matter how much you like them, those mass-produced oil-smathered sunsets just aren't tasty and have no artistic soul or merit whatsoever. If you feel like someone somewhere should pay a set price for that kind of thing, fair enough but I and many others won't.

Art often precedes industry but when it becomes industry it ceases to be art. The institutionalised path that is laid out for bands which includes recording deals. labels and record companies etc. is a production line apparatus in effect. That avenue is the antithesis of creativity and has perhaps dampened the subsequent work of plenty of bands in the past who released refreshing first and second albums.
Frank Zappa wrote:
Art is making something out of nothing and selling it.
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PostSubject: Re: Downloading Music   Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:45 pm

A 4-track? God be with the days...

I was very impressed with NiN's marketing and that whole malarkey of leaving memory sticks with tracks and links in the toilets of venues etc...
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PostSubject: Re: Downloading Music   Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:51 pm

studiorat wrote:
A 4-track? God be with the days...

I was very impressed with NiN's marketing and that whole malarkey of leaving memory sticks with tracks and links in the toilets of venues etc...
It's all a game isn't it ? Life is just a game and death is just the same. You need to know how to play it well though. Fans and customers are discerning. You want to keep the repeat customers. There isn't half enough street music in my opinion. I love a good busker now and then. They removed them from the Cliffts of Moher too there once recently, the council basutrds, they were just short of loading them all onto a train except the Harpists.

But that's it with the USB sticks - take advantage of cheap technology while it's there.
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PostSubject: Re: Downloading Music   Tue Jan 06, 2009 12:55 pm

If I may finish slightly off topic.

There's no way Coldplay have even heard a bleeding Joe Satrani song.

Joe Satrani? WTF?

Though I'm sure Mr.Creative Guitar picked up a few gigs on the back of that.
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PostSubject: Re: Downloading Music   Tue Jan 06, 2009 1:15 pm

Dowloading has certainly driven people out on the road to do more and more live gigs. There was a glut last year and this year will see fewer I suppose.
If we want full time musicians they and their studio people have to be paid somehow. Tax and grant, like the government is trying to do with GAA?
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PostSubject: Re: Downloading Music   Tue Jan 06, 2009 6:44 pm

[quote="Auditor #9"]
studiorat wrote:

But that's it with the USB sticks - take advantage of cheap technology while it's there.
Cheap isn't the word Audi. I went looking for a 128MB USB stick today, I didn't want any more because I only wanted to install Puppy Linux on it and that only takes 100MB, but alas the lowest I could find was 1GB for €7.
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