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 The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.

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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:58 am

Irish Teachers are paid well alright. This is from 2003 however

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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:59 am

johnfás wrote:
Point 1 on the basic scale is 31,804 point 25 (the highest) is 61,816. Then you get various other scales for if you got an honours degree and things like that.

See here

http://www.asti.ie/payandcon.htm#1

€6,000 plus for a teaching qualification and a masters degree? If the OECD list is comparing like with like ( days teaching, allowances, ) then it looks fair enough to me. Apart from maths and science, our children do very well on very low overall educational spending.
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:05 pm

Quote :
With the exception of the public service, a degree does not guarantee you any particular level of income, many’s the degree holder in the private sector has found themselves working for minimum wage when that was all they could get and if in the good times teachers want to compare themselves to the private sector then they must be prepared to take the risks of the private sector in bad times, no one is asking them to do that so private sector comparison doesn’t or shouldn’t come into play.

Up until recently it was the case that many teachers who had full qualifications but were working "on hours" or on a contract were treated particularly badly - having to sign on over holidays because there's no income - and the hourly rate didn't cover the holidays, though it does now.

By international standards you'll see that Irish teachers are averagely paid, but not badly. And if you look at the resourcing of Irish schools you'll see that we don't fare so well at all.

While the private sector does not offer a better income to graduates in your philosophy, what it does offer is a meritocratic system of promotion - or at least a system of promotion. I don't think 60k after almost 40 years work and experience is anything to shout about in terms of other professions where individuals have far greater promotion options and overtime - which as we all know, is unpaid but virtually mandatory in our schools.
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:25 pm

I agree with your points about teaching and the use of "contracts" like that I thought had been stopped by the EU.

I disagree on the private sector. Opportunities for wage cuts, short time and the sack are included there, as well as a life time stuck in boring repetitive work. You would have to find a specific profession with a comparable level of qualification and training in order to compare.
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:42 pm

Auditor #9 wrote:
Irish Teachers are paid well alright. This is from 2003 however


Thats a really good salary for Spain. An IT professional can expect to get €1000/month with no pension or holidays or job security in Alicante. Even in Barcelona/Madrid the rates are appallingly low for highly qualified people. Also remember that when considering salaries you really do have to factor in pensions, holidays and job security.

Still, while I would be very happy on 45,000 up to retirement, with the holidays and job security, i can imagine that teaching can be extremely stressfull. Theres a lot of emotional energy invested I would say.
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Tue Nov 25, 2008 1:43 pm

cactus flower wrote:
I agree with your points about teaching and the use of "contracts" like that I thought had been stopped by the EU.

I disagree on the private sector. Opportunities for wage cuts, short time and the sack are included there, as well as a life time stuck in boring repetitive work. You would have to find a specific profession with a comparable level of qualification and training in order to compare.


Indeed - we're all as well aware of the negatives of the private sector as we are of the positives of the public sector - but the opposite sides of either coin don't arise much in debate.

An interesting point is my brother who works for a huge multinational. He is getting his degree now through that company who are paying for him to go to college and have arranged his hours around it. He's paid more even now than I was when I had a degree, post-grad, nearly ten years teaching experience and held a post. He doesn't get overtime but he does get handsome bonuses that induce him - and those who work under him - to work harder to meet their quarterly targets. Which they're still getting. He works very hard and puts in the extra unpaid hours but there is career reward for that.

What has always appealed to me is the notion that he and others can work harder and make progress up the career ladder rather than receive an increment simply for time served. I appreciate that they unions have stymied that for teachers, because there's no performance related pay (though I'd agree that it would be notoriously difficult to find a good formula for it) but one of the factors that led to me leaving was being surrounded by people who were treading career water rather than actually going anywhere. It may be the fault of the profession and the unions rather than the individuals but it's anathema to me.
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Tue Nov 25, 2008 2:00 pm

Yes, the increment system and the increasing length of holidays as people move up the public sector hierarchy both have their down sides. I do see the point though in giving people a merit based increment for experience, even if they stay in the same post. There were women I knew in local authorities who stayed in lower grades because of family commitments, but because of their knowledge of the system, experience and dedication, virtually ran the offices that other people were paid to manage. There should be some reward.
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:42 pm

tonys wrote:
if in the good times teachers want to compare themselves to the private sector then they must be prepared to take the risks of the private sector in bad times, no one is asking them to do that so private sector comparison doesn’t or shouldn’t come into play.

I actually agree with that. The reverse is also true, however, if people in the private sector want to compare their lack of permanency with that of some people within the public sector then they should also be willing to do the same in the good times on issues of pay, perks etc.

Regarding the trip. I don`t think that I should have been paid for the trip as it happens. I arranged it because it was an area of common interest between myself and some of the kids. The trip itself had no direct benefit in terms of exams so it was none of the department`s business, one way or the other. As Kate P pointed out however trips of any kind are of immense benefit to the kids in terms of fostering relationships between teachers, between students, between students and teachers as well as the opening of eyes that occurs as a result of travel.

The point that Tonys raised about self-interest is an interesting one, although I think that he meant it as a swipe at teachers, the fact is that all professions and sections of society have regarded and continue to regard the state as some kind of bottomless piggybank. That includes the unions, politicians, big business, every area that elected a TD because he will be good for the area etc. The difference is that greed and self-interest is reported differently for different sectors and individuals. All of us will need to take a good hard look at ourselves over the coming years and the things that we feel are an entitlement. The problem is that the current political and financial leadership is permanently tainted for a large section of the electorate, maybe even a majority, because of the actions of a few and the inactions of a greater number. It is very difficult to take lectures about wage restraint from people earning six or seven or ten or twenty times your pay plus expenses or from people who tolerated or encouraged things which were shaky ethically even if it is difficult to pin a precise charge on them.
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:49 pm

anmajornarthainig wrote:
tonys wrote:
if in the good times teachers want to compare themselves to the private sector then they must be prepared to take the risks of the private sector in bad times, no one is asking them to do that so private sector comparison doesn’t or shouldn’t come into play.

I actually agree with that. The reverse is also true, however, if people in the private sector want to compare their lack of permanency with that of some people within the public sector then they should also be willing to do the same in the good times on issues of pay, perks etc.

Regarding the trip. I don`t think that I should have been paid for the trip as it happens. I arranged it because it was an area of common interest between myself and some of the kids. The trip itself had no direct benefit in terms of exams so it was none of the department`s business, one way or the other. As Kate P pointed out however trips of any kind are of immense benefit to the kids in terms of fostering relationships between teachers, between students, between students and teachers as well as the opening of eyes that occurs as a result of travel.

The point that Tonys raised about self-interest is an interesting one, although I think that he meant it as a swipe at teachers, the fact is that all professions and sections of society have regarded and continue to regard the state as some kind of bottomless piggybank. That includes the unions, politicians, big business, every area that elected a TD because he will be good for the area etc. The difference is that greed and self-interest is reported differently for different sectors and individuals. All of us will need to take a good hard look at ourselves over the coming years and the things that we feel are an entitlement. The problem is that the current political and financial leadership is permanently tainted for a large section of the electorate, maybe even a majority, because of the actions of a few and the inactions of a greater number. It is very difficult to take lectures about wage restraint from people earning six or seven or ten or twenty times your pay plus expenses or from people who tolerated or encouraged things which were shaky ethically even if it is difficult to pin a precise charge on them.

Good post anmajournathainig: - nominated for post of the month cheers
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:52 pm

Thanks but I don`t see why to be honest. I wouldn`t regard anything posted above as anything other than stating the obvious.
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Tue Nov 25, 2008 8:54 pm

anmajornarthainig wrote:
Thanks but I don`t see why to be honest. I wouldn`t regard anything posted above as anything other than stating the obvious.

That can be extremely refreshing.
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Wed Nov 26, 2008 2:28 am

anmajornarthainig wrote:
The point that Tonys raised about self-interest is an interesting one, although I think that he meant it as a swipe at teachers,
Not so, I was having a swipe at some posters, including and probably especially yourself, on this thread.

anmajornarthainig wrote:
The problem is that the current political and financial leadership is permanently tainted for a large section of the electorate, maybe even a majority, because of the actions of a few and the inactions of a greater number. It is very difficult to take lectures about wage restraint from people earning six or seven or ten or twenty times your pay plus expenses or from people who tolerated or encouraged things which were shaky ethically even if it is difficult to pin a precise charge on them.
If that’s an excuse for privileged sectional interests seeking to protect themselves, at the expense of others, from the chill winds, it’s not a very good one.
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Wed Nov 26, 2008 9:56 am

tonys wrote:
anmajornarthainig wrote:
The point that Tonys raised about self-interest is an interesting one, although I think that he meant it as a swipe at teachers,
Not so, I was having a swipe at some posters, including and probably especially yourself, on this thread.

anmajornarthainig wrote:
The problem is that the current political and financial leadership is permanently tainted for a large section of the electorate, maybe even a majority, because of the actions of a few and the inactions of a greater number. It is very difficult to take lectures about wage restraint from people earning six or seven or ten or twenty times your pay plus expenses or from people who tolerated or encouraged things which were shaky ethically even if it is difficult to pin a precise charge on them.
If that’s an excuse for privileged sectional interests seeking to protect themselves, at the expense of others, from the chill winds, it’s not a very good one.

Anmajournathainig is open about being a teacher and that he/she is posting from the point of view of a teacher. Whilst having a swipe might be enjoyable its not what the threads are here for. You may find it dull, tonys, but its the Rules - ball not man.

I think it is entirely legitimate for anyone being asked to accept reduced pay or conditions to demand that the process starts at the top. The idea that people will accept massive reductions in their living standards while the fat cat layer still has its collective face in the cream is unrealistic. The demise of Roddy Molloy is proof of that. It may be hoped that one or two sacrificial lambs will keep people satisfied. I doubt that.
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Wed Nov 26, 2008 3:02 pm

cactus flower wrote:
tonys wrote:
anmajornarthainig wrote:
The point that Tonys raised about self-interest is an interesting one, although I think that he meant it as a swipe at teachers,
Not so, I was having a swipe at some posters, including and probably especially yourself, on this thread.

anmajornarthainig wrote:
The problem is that the current political and financial leadership is permanently tainted for a large section of the electorate, maybe even a majority, because of the actions of a few and the inactions of a greater number. It is very difficult to take lectures about wage restraint from people earning six or seven or ten or twenty times your pay plus expenses or from people who tolerated or encouraged things which were shaky ethically even if it is difficult to pin a precise charge on them.
If that’s an excuse for privileged sectional interests seeking to protect themselves, at the expense of others, from the chill winds, it’s not a very good one.

Anmajournathainig is open about being a teacher and that he/she is posting from the point of view of a teacher. Whilst having a swipe might be enjoyable its not what the threads are here for. You may find it dull, tonys, but its the Rules - ball not man.
Quote from anmajornarthainig in reply to my original post.
“I once told you that I considered you intelligent despite my low opinion of you. I withdraw the first half of that remark on the basis of your original post.”

Three things spring very forcibly to my mind here.
1. Reminders to him from you or any other stalwarts of the need to “play the ball not the man” were conspicuous by their absence and if the mood of this site is to be maintained, I would think the rules really need to be applied to everyone on an equal basis, even to those whom the guardians consider “one of their own”.

2. If anmajor….. cares to dish it out as he obviously does then he had better be prepared to take it.
and
3. If the powers that be here wish this site to be a comfort zone exclusively for the converted, just say the word, I’ve no time to waste on that.
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Wed Nov 26, 2008 3:48 pm

tonys wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
tonys wrote:
anmajornarthainig wrote:
The point that Tonys raised about self-interest is an interesting one, although I think that he meant it as a swipe at teachers,
Not so, I was having a swipe at some posters, including and probably especially yourself, on this thread.

anmajornarthainig wrote:
The problem is that the current political and financial leadership is permanently tainted for a large section of the electorate, maybe even a majority, because of the actions of a few and the inactions of a greater number. It is very difficult to take lectures about wage restraint from people earning six or seven or ten or twenty times your pay plus expenses or from people who tolerated or encouraged things which were shaky ethically even if it is difficult to pin a precise charge on them.
If that’s an excuse for privileged sectional interests seeking to protect themselves, at the expense of others, from the chill winds, it’s not a very good one.

Anmajournathainig is open about being a teacher and that he/she is posting from the point of view of a teacher. Whilst having a swipe might be enjoyable its not what the threads are here for. You may find it dull, tonys, but its the Rules - ball not man.
Quote from anmajornarthainig in reply to my original post.
“I once told you that I considered you intelligent despite my low opinion of you. I withdraw the first half of that remark on the basis of your original post.”

Three things spring very forcibly to my mind here.
1. Reminders to him from you or any other stalwarts of the need to “play the ball not the man” were conspicuous by their absence and if the mood of this site is to be maintained, I would think the rules really need to be applied to everyone on an equal basis, even to those whom the guardians consider “one of their own”.

2. If anmajor….. cares to dish it out as he obviously does then he had better be prepared to take it.
and
3. If the powers that be here wish this site to be a comfort zone exclusively for the converted, just say the word, I’ve no time to waste on that.

That's all fair comment tonys. I will go and look at Anmajournathainig's post. You are considered just as much one of our own as Anmajournathainig or anyone else. Your presence is welcomed here, whether it is comfortable at all times or not. Smile

I looked back at the earlier posts tonys - I pmd anmajornathainig at the time, as I felt things were sounding personal. I am sure you are both well able to dish it out and take it and indeed we can provide a hidden thread in the holding thread if you both wanted to do that. Hopefully, you will both go on debating the topic from here, leaving personalities out of it.
I have found the thread very interesting so far.


Last edited by cactus flower on Wed Nov 26, 2008 4:01 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Ed. cf - added note at end.)
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Wed Nov 26, 2008 11:26 pm

tonys wrote:
anmajornarthainig wrote:
The point that Tonys raised about self-interest is an interesting one, although I think that he meant it as a swipe at teachers,
Not so, I was having a swipe at some posters, including and probably especially yourself, on this thread.

anmajornarthainig wrote:
The problem is that the current political and financial leadership is permanently tainted for a large section of the electorate, maybe even a majority, because of the actions of a few and the inactions of a greater number. It is very difficult to take lectures about wage restraint from people earning six or seven or ten or twenty times your pay plus expenses or from people who tolerated or encouraged things which were shaky ethically even if it is difficult to pin a precise charge on them.
If that’s an excuse for privileged sectional interests seeking to protect themselves, at the expense of others, from the chill winds, it’s not a very good one.

I don`t think that tonys has posted anything unreasonable in the above. I don`t agree with the last sentence of it though. I think that it is entirely natural for people to wait for leadership a leadership that has been largely absent from our political and financial leaders.

His complaint over the lack of criticism of my post is fair enough as well I have to say. (Cactus did pm me about it) However while I don`t have a problem with ideological differences between people on the site I don`t want the site to become another politics.ie a vehicle for party propaganda which is what Tonys`s agenda is I feel. That`s why I`m so hostile to him.
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Wed Nov 26, 2008 11:39 pm

Quote :
party propaganda which is what Tonys`s agenda is I feel
Why do you feel that and what do you mean by 'party propaganda' ? I've only ever seen tonys defend Bertie which was an incredible feat and he accomplished admirable acrobatics while doing it under sustained abuse, stunning evidence to contradict his position and a worthy opponent in Toxic Avenger. tonys's defence of Bertie has to rank as an eighth wonder of the world if the Tribunal files are ever released by David Cochrane.

All along I thought FF were very conciliatory to the Dept. of Education. If it's time for a tightening up - which they seem to be launching as we see against Fás then shouldn't the Dept. of Ed. fall under a blitz too ?

Issues of tenure are arising but I do believe that the teaching profession needs a different approach than other public services and I think in the circumstances the profession is being as protected as is perhaps possible. Going forward it shouldn't remain that way though - money made in this country should be going to enhance the system that's there and effort should be going to rid it of as many inefficiencies and irrelevances as possible, keeping it up to date and pertinent. And to all sectors of society too - young and old.
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Thu Nov 27, 2008 12:08 am

Audi:

The reason is the (1) the constant desire to spin anything relating to Bertie.
(2) That his major contribution to this site is to start a thread attacking teachers at a time where teachers and parents are united in protests at weekends against the education cuts introduced by a minister from his party. I don`t do coincidences.

By the way Fianna Fáil have thrown money at the department of education but I`ve no time for them either. Don`t make the assumption that the department know what they are doing or are overly concerned about kids.
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Thu Nov 27, 2008 12:38 am

anmajornarthainig wrote:
Audi:

The reason is the (1) the constant desire to spin anything relating to Bertie.
(2) That his major contribution to this site is to start a thread attacking teachers at a time where teachers and parents are united in protests at weekends against the education cuts introduced by a minister from his party. I don`t do coincidences.

By the way Fianna Fáil have thrown money at the department of education but I`ve no time for them either. Don`t make the assumption that the department know what they are doing or are overly concerned about kids.

It has been one of the political phenomena of the day that's in it to see Government wheel around from conciliation of the public sector, as they have started to realise the depth of the economic crisis, to now trying to drive a division between public and private sector workers. The conditions are now set for them to bring in Ryanair terms and conditions of employment (and worse) into the public sector. I agree with what you say about the demonstration.
Feelings are strong about this.
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Thu Nov 27, 2008 12:51 am

anmajornarthainig wrote:
Audi:

The reason is the (1) the constant desire to spin anything relating to Bertie.
It’s a pity about you, isn’t it, imagine having to read posts you don’t agree with and that are mere “spin” while there you are with your opinion and the “truth” coinciding.

anmajornarthainig wrote:
(2) That his major contribution to this site is to start a thread attacking teachers at a time where teachers and parents are united in protests at weekends against the education cuts introduced by a minister from his party.
I don’t generally start threads at all, in my time on P.ie I think I only started 1. I started this thread because it was a main news story of the day and no one else had mentioned it. In so far as timing is concerned, I posted it on the day the story appeared, I had no control over that at all.

anmajornarthainig wrote:
I don`t do coincidences.
Well what a relief that is, I thought your bad tempered outburst on this thread and you being a teacher was a coincidence, thank you for putting me straight.
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:39 am

Any chance we can all leave the personal stuff behind and get on with the discussion now that we have all of this out of our systems?

tonys - what about the free overtime the department gets out of teachers involved in extra-curricular activities? Without them, the character of our schools would be lost as would those great relationship-building experiences. At the same time, the level of commitment is extraordinary. We come back to the same point you haven't yet responded to which really is the value placed on teachers and the teaching profession by the department.
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:42 am

I was at an Education Cuts meeting tonight in the local Primary school.
Attended by 5 principles, one a member of INTO, 2 Councillors and a TD.
And about 120 parents.

The figures given for uncertified sick leave (Primary) were as follows.

35% of teachers - NO USL

52% of teachers - 1-4 days USL

12% of teachers - 5-9 days USL
______________
99%

The National average was stated as 1.6 days.
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Thu Nov 27, 2008 1:51 am

What did the people at the meeting say EvotingMachine?
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Thu Nov 27, 2008 2:54 am

cactus flower wrote:
What did the people at the meeting say EvotingMachine?

The parents or the speakers ?
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Thu Nov 27, 2008 3:08 am

Kate P wrote:
tonys - what about the free overtime the department gets out of teachers involved in extra-curricular activities? Without them, the character of our schools would be lost as would those great relationship-building experiences. At the same time, the level of commitment is extraordinary. We come back to the same point you haven't yet responded to which really is the value placed on teachers and the teaching profession by the department.
I thought I had. Anyway as I see it like a Soldier or a Guard who expects to see in his/her wage packet, recognition for the fact he/she may be asked to risk their life in the course of their duty, a teacher who expects to see their real value recognised through pay is I suspect, in the wrong job.
If you’ve got the talent & find it a fulfilling career, I think it is well paid & the holiday arrangements more than compensate for extra curricular work, which in any event I would think, looking from the outside, is probably the most fulfilling part of it.
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