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 The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.

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PostSubject: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:36 pm

I don’t like Mondays said Bob, apparently he wasn’t the only one.

There’s something about Mondays & Fridays that causes sickness in Irish primary & second level teachers at a rate about 15% higher that anything a Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday can achieve.

Why this should be the case the officials at the dept. of Education have no idea, it’s like a black hole said an informed source and we’re looking into it. One oddity it seems is that whatever the cause is, it must be dampness or SAD related as incidences of this M&F malady appear to drop off remarkably from June to August, food for thought our informed source said.

The cost of this EXTRA sickness brought on by “Monday” & “Friday” sickness works out to be about 11,400,000 per year based on 200 Euro per day per missing teacher or 1.14 cancer immunization schemes for 12 year old girls. The total bill for teacher sick leave comes in at about 183,000,000 per year or about 1.14 a lot of other useful things.

Any thoughts at all on what could be causing this strange, what we might call “Irish teachers long weekend sickness” for short?
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:39 pm

There are cycles. There are a lot more road accidents on Mondays and Fridays too.
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:42 pm

cactus flower wrote:
There are cycles.
Why would teachers on bikes be more likely to go on uncertified sick leave on Mondays or Fridays?
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Thu Nov 20, 2008 11:49 pm

From what I've read recently, there's a massive difference in the average annual sick days between the public and private sectors.
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:03 am

Very generous maternity leave alright and substitute teacher provision (or at least there was)

Quote :
MORE generous maternity leave provision is pushing up the cost of providing substitute teachers in schools to over €180m per year, new figures confirm.

This year's substitution bill is €183m, a third of which goes on maternity and related leave, while less than one-tenth is uncertified sick leave.

Women are now entitled to 26 weeks paid maternity leave and 16 weeks unpaid leave -- up four weeks on a couple of years ago.

The figures also show that the cost of uncertified sick leave is €17m compared with €45m for certified sick leave.

From January, the Department of Education and Science will no longer provide paid substitution for uncertified sick leave. Nor will it provide for substitution for teachers absent on official school business which currently costs €13m.

Teachers' union the INTO said the figures disproved the notion that there was a problem with uncertified sick leave among teachers -- they showed that it worked out at an average of just over one day per teacher per year.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/bill-for-substitute-teachers-soars-to-8364183m-1542980.html

Does that sound any way reasonable for maternity leave cover - 183million ? Maybe if it wasn't available women wouldn't be having babies so it serves a number of purposes besides being part of a Nordic culture of looking after workers - it gives incentives for teacherly types to breed and multiply and then raise good upstanding little ones properly indoctrinated. Don't men get maternity leave now too ?
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:36 am

tonys wrote:
I don’t like Mondays said Bob, apparently he wasn’t the only one.

There’s something about Mondays & Fridays that causes sickness in Irish primary & second level teachers at a rate about 15% higher that anything a Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday can achieve.

Why this should be the case the officials at the dept. of Education have no idea, it’s like a black hole said an informed source and we’re looking into it. One oddity it seems is that whatever the cause is, it must be dampness or SAD related as incidences of this M&F malady appear to drop off remarkably from June to August, food for thought our informed source said.

The cost of this EXTRA sickness brought on by “Monday” & “Friday” sickness works out to be about 11,400,000 per year based on 200 Euro per day per missing teacher or 1.14 cancer immunization schemes for 12 year old girls. The total bill for teacher sick leave comes in at about 183,000,000 per year or about 1.14 a lot of other useful things.

Any thoughts at all on what could be causing this strange, what we might call “Irish teachers long weekend sickness” for short?

Who`d have thought it a Fianna Fáil cheerleader attacking an occupation currently complaining about a government budget. So now teachers are responsible for cancer are they?

I once told you that I considered you intelligent despite my low opinion of you. I withdraw the first half of that remark on the basis of your original post.
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:49 am

anmajornarthainig wrote:
tonys wrote:
I don’t like Mondays said Bob, apparently he wasn’t the only one.

There’s something about Mondays & Fridays that causes sickness in Irish primary & second level teachers at a rate about 15% higher that anything a Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday can achieve.

Why this should be the case the officials at the dept. of Education have no idea, it’s like a black hole said an informed source and we’re looking into it. One oddity it seems is that whatever the cause is, it must be dampness or SAD related as incidences of this M&F malady appear to drop off remarkably from June to August, food for thought our informed source said.

The cost of this EXTRA sickness brought on by “Monday” & “Friday” sickness works out to be about 11,400,000 per year based on 200 Euro per day per missing teacher or 1.14 cancer immunization schemes for 12 year old girls. The total bill for teacher sick leave comes in at about 183,000,000 per year or about 1.14 a lot of other useful things.

Any thoughts at all on what could be causing this strange, what we might call “Irish teachers long weekend sickness” for short?

Who`d have thought it a Fianna Fáil cheerleader attacking an occupation currently complaining about a government budget. So now teachers are responsible for cancer are they?

I once told you that I considered you intelligent despite my low opinion of you. I withdraw the first half of that remark on the basis of your original post.
Thank God for that charter, it really works doesn’t it.
And thanks for addressing the issue at hand, I hadn’t thought of any of the points you raised, but even so, why Mondays and Fridays?
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Fri Nov 21, 2008 12:54 am

It's an interesting question Tonys.

I'm not sure why it should be that way, because missing a Monday and Friday on uncertified sick leave causes a teacher to lose four days, not two - the weekend is included. This is the reason, as far as I can recall that the teacher strikes a couple of years ago started mid-week. Week one missed a Wednesday, week two was maybe Tuesday and Wednesday, week three was tues, wed and thurs and there was genuine anxiety that it would stretch to week four and a weekend day would be included...
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:00 am

I caught the end of this on Newstalk earlier but missed the numbers. Clearly it is long weekend syndrome - but it's too un-pc to say that anywhere.
There is culture of calling in sick, and why would ther not be, when cover is guaranteed and everyone does it. Don't they have a annual allocation of sick days or something?

tonys, the sarcasm in your post is unmissable, and I have to agree with you. I would like to see the total uncertified sick leave as a percentage of total hours. I recently saw this figure for HSE staff and the figure was horrendous - over 6% I think.

That's an awful lot of money...
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:07 am

Quote :
There is culture of calling in sick, and why would ther not be, when cover is guaranteed and everyone does it. Don't they have a annual allocation of sick days or something?


I think it's four days per month - I know someone who used every one of them and was royally frowned upon by everyone in her staffroom.

Theoretically you could take a long weekend every month. As well as all the other days off.
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:09 am

tonys wrote:
anmajornarthainig wrote:
tonys wrote:
I don’t like Mondays said Bob, apparently he wasn’t the only one.

There’s something about Mondays & Fridays that causes sickness in Irish primary & second level teachers at a rate about 15% higher that anything a Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday can achieve.

Why this should be the case the officials at the dept. of Education have no idea, it’s like a black hole said an informed source and we’re looking into it. One oddity it seems is that whatever the cause is, it must be dampness or SAD related as incidences of this M&F malady appear to drop off remarkably from June to August, food for thought our informed source said.

The cost of this EXTRA sickness brought on by “Monday” & “Friday” sickness works out to be about 11,400,000 per year based on 200 Euro per day per missing teacher or 1.14 cancer immunization schemes for 12 year old girls. The total bill for teacher sick leave comes in at about 183,000,000 per year or about 1.14 a lot of other useful things.

Any thoughts at all on what could be causing this strange, what we might call “Irish teachers long weekend sickness” for short?

Who`d have thought it a Fianna Fáil cheerleader attacking an occupation currently complaining about a government budget. So now teachers are responsible for cancer are they?

I once told you that I considered you intelligent despite my low opinion of you. I withdraw the first half of that remark on the basis of your original post.
Thank God for that charter, it really works doesn’t it.
And thanks for addressing the issue at hand, I hadn’t thought of any of the points you raised, but even so, why Mondays and Fridays?


Complain so if you want you`re the only person either here or on politics.ie that I`ve ever openly insulted. You`re post is deliberately trying to be offensive and I`ve pointed out your obvious motivation in posting this piece of garbage. This is so sloppy that I`m inclined to think that you`re an average journalist. This is why

1. No source for your information.

2. No context. Is the situation improving or disimproving? What was it like five, ten, twenty years ago? Are teachers more prone to particular types of illnesses given that they are directly and indirectly in contact with large numbers of people?

3. No comparison between teachers and other jobs. Are they more or less inclined to take sick days?

4. Linking of pieces of information that may or may not be connected. Monday absenteeism and Friday absenteeism may not be linked.

5. The hysterical linking of the article with a completely unrelated issue in order to score points off a group against which you have a political gripe.

Look tonys: I genuinely wish you health and happiness and the same to all those around you and I mean that. It`s your internet persona I have a problem with and not you personally. But you continually post party propaganda and while you do that I`m going to have a go at you every chance I get because this site isn`t like that. It`s not about blind fanaticism and rigid adherence to a party or to an ideology. While you wedge that Fianna Fáil hat tightly town around your eyes I`ll have no time for you. The minute you loosen it, not discard it, I`ll treat you with nothing but courtesy.


Last edited by anmajornarthainig on Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:38 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:11 am

Anmajornarthainig - you work in education, surely you're aware at least anecdotally that there's an exploitation of the system by at least some teachers?
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:19 am

Kate P wrote:
Quote :
There is culture of calling in sick, and why would ther not be, when cover is guaranteed and everyone does it. Don't they have a annual allocation of sick days or something?


I think it's four days per month - I know someone who used every one of them and was royally frowned upon by everyone in her staffroom.

Theoretically you could take a long weekend every month. As well as all the other days off.
Some people have had things far too easy for far too long, it has to stop.

We can’t afford this sort of nonsense now, as it is some badly needed services are going to have to be cut, which is bad enough, but to have to cut while this sort of thing is going on, is unacceptable.
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:21 am

In fairness I would not call tonys' OP offensive (unless read by a teacher with a good attendance record). I would call it cutting, which imo is fair enough considering there is clearly abuse of sick leave procedure taking place.


EDIT:
HSE sick leave info. I could not find the Sindo article.

HSE paying 140 Million for sick Leave


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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:24 am

I can`t speak for a hundred thousand people but most teachers I know are extremely reluctant to take sick days. The work is still waiting for you when you come back. It`s not that somebody else picks up the slack. Most teachers I know have missed very few days unless they are seriously ill for an extended period of time. I can`t think of any teacher I know that`s rung in sick with a hangover or at least any that have have avoided telling me. There are other instances of abuse and I can think of one reason not apparent to people outside the job why teachers would ring in sick when they aren`t but I`m not in the humour to post it here with Tonys hovering around waiting to propagandise. I`d hate to be misquoted as a source in the Independent.
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:28 am

Quote :
Some people have had things far too easy for far too long, it has to stop.

We can’t afford this sort of nonsense now, as it is some badly needed services are going to have to be cut, which is bad enough, but to have to cut while this sort of thing is going on, is unacceptable.

You can come down off your high horse tonys - no one is disagreeing with you on the principle. Wink

We could be sensible about this and look at the context for it.

Firstly not all teachers - and not even a majority of them abuse the system and secondly, not all teachers who are out on Mondays and Fridays are necessarily abusing the system either.

There is of course the possibility that teachers would begin to demand pay for extra curricular work - matches and training after school, not getting home from debates til midnight, months of unpaid overtime that goes into musicals and plays, lunchtimes preparing for projects and competitions, exhausting weeks or weekends on school trips so you come back to school not having slept for the duration.

When absent, teachers are also obliged to leave work for classes and that takes time and preparation.

Let's play devil's advocate here and ask why shouldn't teachers take a day here and there if they're not being rewarded for contributions to school life way above the call of duty?
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:30 am

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
In fairness I would not call tonys' OP offensive (unless read by a teacher with a good attendance record). I would call it cutting, which imo is fair enough considering there is clearly abuse of sick leave procedure taking place.

I would find it offensive, not as a teacher with a good attendance record, but because of the problems with the post I outlined above. It`s offensive to those who desire things like balance and perspective who like to have all the facts before making a decision.
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:36 am

anmajornarthainig wrote:
EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
In fairness I would not call tonys' OP offensive (unless read by a teacher with a good attendance record). I would call it cutting, which imo is fair enough considering there is clearly abuse of sick leave procedure taking place.

I would find it offensive, not as a teacher with a good attendance record, but because of the problems with the post I outlined above. It`s offensive to those who desire things like balance and perspective who like to have all the facts before making a decision.
That's a fair point in the end anmajor - you outlined a few things for tonys above which would make the discussion a lot more fact-based. Have you a link for your figures tonys ? They appear shocking. I think I found something similar in the Indo on The Dept. of Social Welfare and it's equally shocking.

I've benefitted directly from being a sub teacher by the way, replacing two or three maternity leaves back to back over a period of two years. Sick leaves are another question though - it'd be very interesting to get those figures as EVM says - as an expression of the overall hours worked.
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:38 am

Tonys one thing I agree with Anmajournathainig about is that a source would be a useful thing. This English study makes some suggestions as to why public sector sick leave appears to be higher

http://www.hse.gov.uk/press/2006/e06073.htm

Drum says sick leave in the Health Sector costs 25 million a year.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/drumm-slates-hse-staff-over-sick-leave-1401933.html

I can't find a link to the article I read recently that said public sector sick leave was higher than private.

I also remember hearing that teachers have the longest life expectancy than any other profession, by quite a lot. Perhaps that means that we should all be working shorter hours and having longer holidays.
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:43 am

cactus: remember Disraeli`s words about statistics and lies. I`m not necessarily standing up for teachers here. Maybe the absenteeism is worse than in other jobs I don`t know. It`s comparison and contrasting that`s important here not taking bare facts out of context. Anyway i`ve to go to bed now. I`m taking a group of kids away for a weekend (Seriously) and I`m going to be flat out. I need my sleep now. I`d hate to ring in sick on Monday. Good night folks.
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:45 am

anmajornarthainig wrote:
EvotingMachine0197 wrote:
In fairness I would not call tonys' OP offensive (unless read by a teacher with a good attendance record). I would call it cutting, which imo is fair enough considering there is clearly abuse of sick leave procedure taking place.

I would find it offensive, not as a teacher with a good attendance record, but because of the problems with the post I outlined above. It`s offensive to those who desire things like balance and perspective who like to have all the facts before making a decision.

Fair enough. Yet there are far too many gravy trains in this country, and lots of people are going to be offended if a serious clamp down comes to pass. I'd say there are a few millionaires offended tonight with that Finace Bill.

This isn't about teachers really, it's about systematic abuse of public finances. It's all over the place.
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:50 am

cactus flower wrote:
..

Drum says sick leave in the Health Sector costs 25 million a year.
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/drumm-slates-hse-staff-over-sick-leave-1401933.html
...

Did you read down to analysis ?

Quote :
Prof Drumm dismissed criticism of his €320,000 salary plus €80,000
bonus, saying it was "laughable" to think he was in the job for the
money.

Pot calling kettle black.

How TF does someone accrue 8% sick leave. If they work M-F for 50 weeks, thats 250 days. 8% of that is 20 days. They should be in hospital.
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:53 am

anmajornarthainig wrote:
cactus: remember Disraeli`s words about statistics and lies. I`m not necessarily standing up for teachers here. Maybe the absenteeism is worse than in other jobs I don`t know. It`s comparison and contrasting that`s important here not taking bare facts out of context. Anyway i`ve to go to bed now. I`m taking a group of kids away for a weekend (Seriously) and I`m going to be flat out. I need my sleep now. I`d hate to ring in sick on Monday. Good night folks.

I think maybe you didn't read the first article, which said that the comparisons and the conclusions about higher public sector sick leave were false.


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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Fri Nov 21, 2008 1:59 am

From INTO website Here

Quote :

3. Uncertified sick leave




3.1 Qualified primary school teachers in permanent
and temporary posts may take a maximum of three consecutive
days sick leave without providing a medical certificate.
The Board of Management can employ a substitute teacher
from the first day of absence on uncertified sick leave.




3.2 The maximum number of uncertified sick leave
days allowable in a school year is 31.



3.3 A teacher cannot take a period of uncertified
sick leave immediately after certified sick leave. Where
a teacher takes a period of uncertified sick leave followed
by certified sick leave the medical certificate should
cover the total period of the absence i.e. with effect
from the first day of the absence.

31 days per year ! Well isn't that nice.

If I took 1/4 of that without very good documented reason, I'd be fired. So who should be taking offence ?
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PostSubject: Re: The TUI case for banning Mondays & Fridays.   Fri Nov 21, 2008 2:01 am

Some figures - admittedly mostly not from primary sources:

1. there is apparently an SFA report that indicates an average of 8 days per year sick leave in the private sector (down from 13 in the 70's) - an average of 6 days in small companies, 10 in the corporates, up to 14 in call centres. Absenteeism in the prison service - average 21 days (down from 26). Source: IT article 02/09/08

2. The following figures are from a
Tribune article:

Quote :
At primary level, where almost 30,000 teachers are employed, the overall cost of substitute cover has mushroomed from €26m in 2002 to a projected €84m this year.

In the 2007/2008 school year at primary level, substitute teachers were used to cover for 362,923 teaching days of which 30% or 109,000 were to cover certified sick leave and 11% or 40,000 days to cover for uncertified sick leave.

At secondary level where 17,700 teachers are employed, substitute teachers were used to cover for 245,399 days of which 25% or 61,350 were for certified sick leave and over 11% or 27,700 for uncertified sick leave.

This leaves an overall absenteeism rate among teachers of over 7% of which sickness accounts for 3%.

Though this is not high by private sector standards, the problem for Minister O'Keeffe is that unlike most jobs, immediate cover has to be provided for an absent teacher and this has cost progressively more over the past few years.

So, using the figures given, the sick days for teachers come to:

Primary: 30,000 teachers vs 149,000 sick days = 4.97 sick days per year

Secondary: 17,700 teachers vs 89,050 sick days = 5.03 sick days per year

Those compare favourably with small firm sick leave, and suggest that teachers are less likely to take sick leave than most employees.
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