The M50 Toll - WTF

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

*sigh* A petroleum dictator living in a hydrogen world. We're moving on. The new age of hydrogen is upon us and we'll be taking that air-powered bus in the next decade. We'll be energy self-sufficient so we can nuke your precious Caracas and make maracases with the rubble!

Yo no intiendo nada de esto arriba.

I sheet in the milk !! Adioooos, lunaticos!

Right, I've just learned they also charge €1 per month account administration for both types of account. I thought it was only for the tag account.

And also they automatically top-up your account when the balance hits €12. Which means you can never use that €12.

WTF ?

I would like to know how these guys get my car registration details and address if I choose not to register, and what gives them the right to do so.

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

Right, I've just learned they also charge €1 per month account administration for both types of account. I thought it was only for the tag account.

And also they automatically top-up your account when the balance hits €12. Which means you can never use that €12.

WTF ?

I would like to know how these guys get my car registration details and address if I choose not to register, and what gives them the right to do so.

Evotingmachine0917 - with your special programming I am sure that you will be able to create a solution for this.

What an lunatic notion, to make people pay for a road toll by making a special, extra, road trip.

Quote :

Tags

From August 30, motorists using electronic tags like EazyPass will continue to pay €2 on the M50.

Drivers without a tag but who pre-register a vehicle and provide credit card details will face a fee of €2.50.

The biggest hike will be for the many drivers who do not pre-register. They will have to pay €3 per trip.

The €3 toll will have to be paid by 8pm the following day or the motorist will be subject to a further €3 penalty.

Three methods of payment have been put in place -- by telephone, over the internet or in a Payzone outlet.

But Vincent Jennings of the Convenience Stores & Newsagents' Association (CSNA) said "there is no agreement whatsoever" between his group and Payzone, which operates from shops around the country.

Mr Jennings said his members would be providing the service at a loss if they had agreed to the terms on offer.

He told the Herald the service could not be provided in less than 40 seconds per customer, meaning the cost in labour to convenience stores would be 15c.

"We were being remunerated a small fraction of that -- as little as 15pc of the cost. And that's before you talk about transaction charges and back office administration," Mr Jennings said.

His organisation represents 1,500 shops around the country.

A spokesman for the NRA said he has been assured by Payzone over 1,000 retailers are in place to accept the tolls. Centra, Supervalu and other stores will offer the service.

News of the disagreement between the CSNA and Payzone comes after it emerged holidaymakers using the M50 to get to Dublin Airport might find a €46 toll bill waiting for them on their return.

The scenario could arise after barrier-free tolling is introduced on the congested ring road on August 30.

(Evening Herald)

http://www.herald.ie/national-news/city-news/m50-toll-payments-row--as-newsagents-engage-in-standoff-over-pay-terms-1438143.html

There's an on-line petition on the Herald's site - here is an example of the comments:

Minister Cullen,

I would like to add my name to the Evening Herald’s petition to stop the new tolling system.

Quote :

Given the amount of money already recouped in tax from the westlink and the fact that 600 million of taxpayers money has been spent buying out NTR can you not now give us a break and show the nation that you are not the financially incompetent moron we all believe you to be.

Conor O'Brien.

Quote :

Conor Faughnan of AA Ireland has branded the system as worse than "PPARS and electronic voting combined".

Mr Faughnan said the NRA will earn €80m a year from drivers using the M50 after the barriers are raised.

But it will cost the State body nearly a third of this -- €25m -- to collect the toll, he pointed out.

"Essentially the Government is spending a fortune in order to collect money from motorists. This is like PPARS and electronic voting combined," Mr Faughnan said, referring to two previous spending scandals.

Add to that the cost of motorists time and fuel in driving around looking for someone to pay.

It looks like we're locked into this idiocy for the next 8 years.

Quote :

Payzone wins M50 toll contract
Payzone has won the contract to provide BetEire Flow with online toll payment services for the M50

Payzone has the contract for five years with an option to extend it for a further three years.

Drivers are expected to have the option to pay M50 tolls via the internet, mobile phone or at one of 2,000 shops that stock Payzone mobile phone credit.

Payzone was formed after the merger of electronic payments firm Alphyra and British cash machine operator Cardpoint.

© 2008 ireland.com

Where is the legislation that gives these guys the right to get my car registration details and address, which is under data protection ?

The National Consumer Agency objected to the Draft Toll Scheme and seem to have been completely ignored. I think their objection was limited, given the problems for users without easy computer access and without credit cards, and the issue of tourists and people using the airport wasn't mentioned.

http://www.nca.ie/eng/Media_Zone/Press%20Releases/NCA_objects_to_M50_toll_proposal.html

Quote :

In our view, the current requirements of tag service providers are excessive and transfer cash flow from the consumer to the provider. In essence, the effect of current tag service provider charges is to increase considerably the real cost to consumers of electronic tolling. They are, in effect, hidden toll charges.

This is a good example to the daylight robbery which is neoliberal economics at work.

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

Where is the legislation that gives these guys the right to get my car registration details and address, which is under data protection ?

Good question EvotingMachine0917. This isn't the answer but is relevant :


M50 Debt Collector Appointed

Quote :

Irregular users of the M50 who opt not to get an electronic tag have until 8pm the following day to pay by phone. If they do not, the fees increase over the next eight weeks until the file is passed over to Pearse & Fitzgibbon.

Under the Roads Act 2007, evading a toll is a criminal offence punishable by a fine of up to €5,000 and/or a jail term of up to six months. This legislation also allows for unpaid tolls to be recovered from motorists as a civil debt, as an alternative to a criminal prosecution.

In a statement last night the NRA said it intends "in general, to pursue most toll evaders under the civil proceedings route, seeking recovery of the unpaid toll amounts, plus penalty tolls and costs."

Under this system Pearse & Fitzgibbon will issue a civil summons to the toll evader. If the driver fails to pay, a decree for the amount owed will be issued by the Courts Service, which could result in the debt being registered against the individual and may impact on their credit record.

The system will use vehicle registration details stored by the National Vehicle and Driver File (NVDF) in Shannon to identify those who do not pay.

I'll be evading the toll by driving through the town centre

I can understand if a summons is issued against the registration, then someone can go check my address for posting out the summons. This utilises the legislation.

But eflow say they will post out a penalty notice for €6. How do they get my address without legislation?

I don't like this shit.

http://eflow.ie/Penalty/Penalty.aspx

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

I can understand if a summons is issued against the registration, then someone can go check my address for posting out the summons. This utilises the legislation.

But eflow say they will post out a penalty notice for €6. How do they get my address without legislation?

I don't like this shit.

http://eflow.ie/Penalty/Penalty.aspx

There are reports that 70 per cent of addresses are wrong.

cactus flower wrote:

The National Consumer Agency objected to the Draft Toll Scheme and seem to have been completely ignored. I think their objection was limited, given the problems for users without easy computer access and without credit cards, and the issue of tourists and people using the airport wasn't mentioned.

http://www.nca.ie/eng/Media_Zone/Press%20Releases/NCA_objects_to_M50_toll_proposal.html

Quote :

In our view, the current requirements of tag service providers are excessive and transfer cash flow from the consumer to the provider. In essence, the effect of current tag service provider charges is to increase considerably the real cost to consumers of electronic tolling. They are, in effect, hidden toll charges.

This is a good example to the daylight robbery which is neoliberal economics at work.

You realise that the foundation behind the idea of neoliberal economics is that government control over aspects on the economy is undesirable. And that the etoll is operated by the NRA, a government body, and indeed the M50 toll bridge was bought from a private company, NTR, by the government last year?

cookiemonster wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

The National Consumer Agency objected to the Draft Toll Scheme and seem to have been completely ignored. I think their objection was limited, given the problems for users without easy computer access and without credit cards, and the issue of tourists and people using the airport wasn't mentioned.

http://www.nca.ie/eng/Media_Zone/Press%20Releases/NCA_objects_to_M50_toll_proposal.html

Quote :

In our view, the current requirements of tag service providers are excessive and transfer cash flow from the consumer to the provider. In essence, the effect of current tag service provider charges is to increase considerably the real cost to consumers of electronic tolling. They are, in effect, hidden toll charges.

This is a good example to the daylight robbery which is neoliberal economics at work.

You realise that the foundation behind the idea of neoliberal economics is that government control over aspects on the economy is undesirable. And that the etoll is operated by the NRA, a government body, and indeed the M50 toll bridge was bought from a private company, NTR, by the government last year?

And then immediately franchised out to Payzone for 8 years - so we will have paid for it three times over.

cactus flower wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

The National Consumer Agency objected to the Draft Toll Scheme and seem to have been completely ignored. I think their objection was limited, given the problems for users without easy computer access and without credit cards, and the issue of tourists and people using the airport wasn't mentioned.

http://www.nca.ie/eng/Media_Zone/Press%20Releases/NCA_objects_to_M50_toll_proposal.html

Quote :

In our view, the current requirements of tag service providers are excessive and transfer cash flow from the consumer to the provider. In essence, the effect of current tag service provider charges is to increase considerably the real cost to consumers of electronic tolling. They are, in effect, hidden toll charges.

This is a good example to the daylight robbery which is neoliberal economics at work.

You realise that the foundation behind the idea of neoliberal economics is that government control over aspects on the economy is undesirable. And that the etoll is operated by the NRA, a government body, and indeed the M50 toll bridge was bought from a private company, NTR, by the government last year?

And then immediately franchised out to Payzone for 8 years - so we will have paid for it three times over.

Who did, the government?

cookiemonster wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

The National Consumer Agency objected to the Draft Toll Scheme and seem to have been completely ignored. I think their objection was limited, given the problems for users without easy computer access and without credit cards, and the issue of tourists and people using the airport wasn't mentioned.

http://www.nca.ie/eng/Media_Zone/Press%20Releases/NCA_objects_to_M50_toll_proposal.html

Quote :

In our view, the current requirements of tag service providers are excessive and transfer cash flow from the consumer to the provider. In essence, the effect of current tag service provider charges is to increase considerably the real cost to consumers of electronic tolling. They are, in effect, hidden toll charges.

This is a good example to the daylight robbery which is neoliberal economics at work.

You realise that the foundation behind the idea of neoliberal economics is that government control over aspects on the economy is undesirable. And that the etoll is operated by the NRA, a government body, and indeed the M50 toll bridge was bought from a private company, NTR, by the government last year?

And then immediately franchised out to Payzone for 8 years - so we will have paid for it three times over.

Who did, the government?

Yes.

cactus flower wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

The National Consumer Agency objected to the Draft Toll Scheme and seem to have been completely ignored. I think their objection was limited, given the problems for users without easy computer access and without credit cards, and the issue of tourists and people using the airport wasn't mentioned.

http://www.nca.ie/eng/Media_Zone/Press%20Releases/NCA_objects_to_M50_toll_proposal.html

Quote :

In our view, the current requirements of tag service providers are excessive and transfer cash flow from the consumer to the provider. In essence, the effect of current tag service provider charges is to increase considerably the real cost to consumers of electronic tolling. They are, in effect, hidden toll charges.

This is a good example to the daylight robbery which is neoliberal economics at work.

You realise that the foundation behind the idea of neoliberal economics is that government control over aspects on the economy is undesirable. And that the etoll is operated by the NRA, a government body, and indeed the M50 toll bridge was bought from a private company, NTR, by the government last year?

And then immediately franchised out to Payzone for 8 years - so we will have paid for it three times over.

Who did, the government?

Yes.

Which would be exactly why it isn't neoliberal economics at all.

cookiemonster wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

The National Consumer Agency objected to the Draft Toll Scheme and seem to have been completely ignored. I think their objection was limited, given the problems for users without easy computer access and without credit cards, and the issue of tourists and people using the airport wasn't mentioned.

http://www.nca.ie/eng/Media_Zone/Press%20Releases/NCA_objects_to_M50_toll_proposal.html

Quote :

In our view, the current requirements of tag service providers are excessive and transfer cash flow from the consumer to the provider. In essence, the effect of current tag service provider charges is to increase considerably the real cost to consumers of electronic tolling. They are, in effect, hidden toll charges.

This is a good example to the daylight robbery which is neoliberal economics at work.

You realise that the foundation behind the idea of neoliberal economics is that government control over aspects on the economy is undesirable. And that the etoll is operated by the NRA, a government body, and indeed the M50 toll bridge was bought from a private company, NTR, by the government last year?

And then immediately franchised out to Payzone for 8 years - so we will have paid for it three times over.

Who did, the government?

Yes.

Which would be exactly why it isn't neoliberal economics at all.

Exactly. It's nothing like neoliberal economics at all. There's even a monopoly in this toll, hardly a hallmark of neoliberalism.

If this was really neoliberalism, the government wouldn't have bothered linking the Northside M50 with the Southside and left the market to decide if it was worth it to connect them. We'd then see an array of private companies buying up land and building competing toll bridges each looking to offer the cheapest possible service. That would be neo-liberal tollonimics with nary a government in sight.

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

The National Consumer Agency objected to the Draft Toll Scheme and seem to have been completely ignored. I think their objection was limited, given the problems for users without easy computer access and without credit cards, and the issue of tourists and people using the airport wasn't mentioned.

http://www.nca.ie/eng/Media_Zone/Press%20Releases/NCA_objects_to_M50_toll_proposal.html

Quote :

In our view, the current requirements of tag service providers are excessive and transfer cash flow from the consumer to the provider. In essence, the effect of current tag service provider charges is to increase considerably the real cost to consumers of electronic tolling. They are, in effect, hidden toll charges.

This is a good example to the daylight robbery which is neoliberal economics at work.

You realise that the foundation behind the idea of neoliberal economics is that government control over aspects on the economy is undesirable. And that the etoll is operated by the NRA, a government body, and indeed the M50 toll bridge was bought from a private company, NTR, by the government last year?

And then immediately franchised out to Payzone for 8 years - so we will have paid for it three times over.

Who did, the government?

Yes.

Which would be exactly why it isn't neoliberal economics at all.

Exactly. It's nothing like neoliberal economics at all. There's even a monopoly in this toll, hardly a hallmark of neoliberalism.

If this was really neoliberalism, the government wouldn't have bothered linking the Northside M50 with the Southside and left the market to decide if it was worth it to connect them. We'd then see an array of private companies buying up land and building competing toll bridges each looking to offer the cheapest possible service. That would be neo-liberal tollonimics with nary a government in sight.

And fishing in the liffey would be a pleasant experience owing to the canopy of toll bridges covering it.

cookiemonster wrote:

And fishing in the liffey would be a pleasant experience owing to the canopy of toll bridges covering it.

Yup. Twould be nice to shelter in the shadow of the bridges of capitalism while fishing. It'd also keep the many rowing clubs along the Liffey dry when they're out training for competitions. Damn it, it'd be great. Why didn't we do it this way?

I'm still not clear..

So the Government own the NRA.
The NRA own the bridge infrastructure.
The NRA have subcontracted toll collection to Payzone.
Payzone employ Pearse&Fitz to issue civil summons for debt collection after 8 weeks.

How do Payzone get my name and address to send me out the €6 notice ? If they are ringing up the NRA and getting it, then I believe my rights under the data protection act are being stomped on.

It's different for ESB, NTL etc, because I have a contract with them, and have already given my address.

I do not have a contract with Payzone or the NRA.

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

The National Consumer Agency objected to the Draft Toll Scheme and seem to have been completely ignored. I think their objection was limited, given the problems for users without easy computer access and without credit cards, and the issue of tourists and people using the airport wasn't mentioned.

http://www.nca.ie/eng/Media_Zone/Press%20Releases/NCA_objects_to_M50_toll_proposal.html

Quote :

In our view, the current requirements of tag service providers are excessive and transfer cash flow from the consumer to the provider. In essence, the effect of current tag service provider charges is to increase considerably the real cost to consumers of electronic tolling. They are, in effect, hidden toll charges.

This is a good example to the daylight robbery which is neoliberal economics at work.

You realise that the foundation behind the idea of neoliberal economics is that government control over aspects on the economy is undesirable. And that the etoll is operated by the NRA, a government body, and indeed the M50 toll bridge was bought from a private company, NTR, by the government last year?

And then immediately franchised out to Payzone for 8 years - so we will have paid for it three times over.

Who did, the government?

Yes.

Which would be exactly why it isn't neoliberal economics at all.

Exactly. It's nothing like neoliberal economics at all. There's even a monopoly in this toll, hardly a hallmark of neoliberalism.

If this was really neoliberalism, the government wouldn't have bothered linking the Northside M50 with the Southside and left the market to decide if it was worth it to connect them. We'd then see an array of private companies buying up land and building competing toll bridges each looking to offer the cheapest possible service. That would be neo-liberal tollonimics with nary a government in sight.

Whatever name you want to put on it, it is exactly the sort of deal that was made with Halliburton in Iraq after the invasion - a contract to provide services after a tender process. This is the way that privatisation of most services takes place.

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

I do not have a contract with Payzone or the NRA.

There will be a hefty big sign up which will put you on notice of the charges and then by proceeding you will have submitted to a contract. It is a user agreement and you don't have to sign it, it can be implied through part performance on your part. The same applies to countless things, you are submitting to one on this website, albeit without a charge.

I would also imagine that the Government has passed legislation dealing with the matter - though I don't know that - and consequently it is more in the realm of taxation than a contract in any case. Payzone will merely be acting as an agent on behalf of the Government rather than a body with whom you have a contract. Legislation dealing with this sort of thing is always really annoying. They allow for statutory instruments (royal decrees from the minister) which allow them to increase the toll willy nilly.

cactus flower wrote:

Whatever name you want to put on it, it is exactly the sort of deal that was made with Halliburton in Iraq after the invasion - a contract to provide services after a tender process. This is the way that privatisation of most services takes place.

What are you talking about? This isn't privatisation, it's nationalisation. The toll bridge was a privately-owned concern but was purchased for €600 million by the Exchequer for State ownership. This process is towards State ownership rather than private ownership.

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

Whatever name you want to put on it, it is exactly the sort of deal that was made with Halliburton in Iraq after the invasion - a contract to provide services after a tender process. This is the way that privatisation of most services takes place.

What are you talking about? This isn't privatisation, it's nationalisation. The toll bridge was a privately-owned concern but was purchased for €600 million by the Exchequer for State ownership. This process is towards State ownership rather than private ownership.

The toll collection, which is what the thread about, has been contracted out. The whole thing is a total waste of time and money and a rip off. The M50 is an essential piece of national infrastructure. Having bought the toll station, Government should have put the cost onto petrol. The idea of people driving around looking for shops to pay for a road toll is simply incredible.