Subject: Sarko goes to Ireland Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:00 am
I thought this deserved a separate thread. Sarkozy's visit is maybe anecdotal, but it can be used as a preparation to follow the manoeuvres of the Irish government in the months to come.
A video from the Ukip, with Nigel Farage as a very loud mouth as always:
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Subject: Re: Sarko goes to Ireland Mon Jul 14, 2008 12:35 am
That was a very noisy display from two of my not favourite people. I would like to lock them in a very small soundproofed room together.
He said today to MPs of his party that you will have to vote again.
He's coming in Ireland on the 21th.
It was just on the news here. One of our Ministers, Michael Martin said nothing had been decided yet (yeah right) and Declan Ganley reckoned if the Irish will have to vote again then so will the French, Dutch, Spanish - the lot. It doesn't sound unlikely that you will have to vote again too. The assumption is that we are operating under a valid democratic system however.
Subject: Re: Sarko goes to Ireland Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:29 am
arnaudherve wrote:
He said today to MPs of his party that you will have to vote again.
He's coming in Ireland on the 21th.
Big swinging Dick - Sure let him come and hopefully He'll bring a bit of French summer weather with him.
Dont see what he will accomplish- but it would be a good idea to have a chat with various No siders.
No point in Asking for a re-run of the referendum before the new year - it simply wouldn't fly here at the moment.
Its all turning out like I have been predicting and I hate being right. The ratification process will continue - all 26 of the rest will have signed by the end of the year. Then what will happen is that the other 26 will proceed to ratify the changes by means of another treaty / enhanced co-operation - We might be given a chance to enter into this with a referendum (if required) early in the new year - But Im pessemistic about this happening - Im can see us being told to park it and assume a holding position on the periphery similar to Denmark after Masstricht and wait there until we are ready to contemplate moving on - if ever.
Hmm - the most interesting thing for me at the moment is Libertas - speaking with friends and a few sources within the "organisation" in recent weeks - I knew Ganley was pretty friendly with leading Eurosceptics and knew there was a meeting in London back last November where allegedly the Mail group committed to leading the media charge for the No camp - but until now I hadn't fully comprehended the depth of the connections and how tight they were with UKIP and the Eurosceptic wing of the Tory party - Now that He has failed for the moment in the ultimate objective of the Libertas campaign - which was to stick an oar in the ratification process and rejection in Ireland would halt that process and stick it in cold storage for about 2 years or so ,in time for a Tory government where the Eurosceptics would have more leverage- which it clearly hasn't - I wonder what the orders from London and Washington will be for him to do next?
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Subject: Re: Sarko goes to Ireland Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:54 am
Edo wrote:
arnaudherve wrote:
He said today to MPs of his party that you will have to vote again.
He's coming in Ireland on the 21th.
Big swinging Dick - Sure let him come and hopefully He'll bring a bit of French summer weather with him.
Dont see what he will accomplish- but it would be a good idea to have a chat with various No siders.
No point in Asking for a re-run of the referendum before the new year - it simply wouldn't fly here at the moment.
Its all turning out like I have been predicting and I hate being right. The ratification process will continue - all 26 of the rest will have signed by the end of the year. Then what will happen is that the other 26 will proceed to ratify the changes by means of another treaty / enhanced co-operation - We might be given a chance to enter into this with a referendum (if required) early in the new year - But Im pessemistic about this happening - Im can see us being told to park it and assume a holding position on the periphery similar to Denmark after Masstricht and wait there until we are ready to contemplate moving on - if ever.
Hmm - the most interesting thing for me at the moment is Libertas - speaking with friends and a few sources within the "organisation" in recent weeks - I knew Ganley was pretty friendly with leading Eurosceptics and knew there was a meeting in London back last November where allegedly the Mail group committed to leading the media charge for the No camp - but until now I hadn't fully comprehended the depth of the connections and how tight they were with UKIP and the Eurosceptic wing of the Tory party - Now that He has failed for the moment in the ultimate objective of the Libertas campaign - which was to stick an oar in the ratification process and rejection in Ireland would halt that process and stick it in cold storage for about 2 years or so ,in time for a Tory government where the Eurosceptics would have more leverage- which it clearly hasn't - I wonder what the orders from London and Washington will be for him to do next?
Yes, I was slow spotting the English connection with both Ganley and McEvaddey. Expatgirl pointed it out for me. It rings in many ways more true than a US connection - Ganley's views are actually at odds with most Neocons on the EU. But I thought I remembered you rightly pointing out that the Libertas social layer was more prone to vote Yes. The campaign was mainly successful for Libertas in getting cheap and easy PR.
Ganley describes his start as a tea boy in "an office in the City" (of London) - I'm not 100% sure but I think he says that he worked for Lloyds Marine Insurance Brokerage (as tea boy) and got given a phone and desk to follow up on an idea. Phoned the Soviet Trade delegation - went to Moscow (still in the USSR) at 19 with the idea of providing insurance for satellite launches ? His first business in metals trading was set up in Moscow whilst presumably still funded by his London City employer. All very interesting stuff.
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Subject: Re: Sarko goes to Ireland Wed Jul 16, 2008 1:55 am
arnaudherve wrote:
quel bordel. What a f... mess.
Anything you want us to say to him if we meet ?
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Subject: Re: Sarko goes to Ireland Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:08 am
cactus flower wrote:
Edo wrote:
arnaudherve wrote:
He said today to MPs of his party that you will have to vote again.
He's coming in Ireland on the 21th.
Big swinging Dick - Sure let him come and hopefully He'll bring a bit of French summer weather with him.
Dont see what he will accomplish- but it would be a good idea to have a chat with various No siders.
No point in Asking for a re-run of the referendum before the new year - it simply wouldn't fly here at the moment.
Its all turning out like I have been predicting and I hate being right. The ratification process will continue - all 26 of the rest will have signed by the end of the year. Then what will happen is that the other 26 will proceed to ratify the changes by means of another treaty / enhanced co-operation - We might be given a chance to enter into this with a referendum (if required) early in the new year - But Im pessemistic about this happening - Im can see us being told to park it and assume a holding position on the periphery similar to Denmark after Masstricht and wait there until we are ready to contemplate moving on - if ever.
Hmm - the most interesting thing for me at the moment is Libertas - speaking with friends and a few sources within the "organisation" in recent weeks - I knew Ganley was pretty friendly with leading Eurosceptics and knew there was a meeting in London back last November where allegedly the Mail group committed to leading the media charge for the No camp - but until now I hadn't fully comprehended the depth of the connections and how tight they were with UKIP and the Eurosceptic wing of the Tory party - Now that He has failed for the moment in the ultimate objective of the Libertas campaign - which was to stick an oar in the ratification process and rejection in Ireland would halt that process and stick it in cold storage for about 2 years or so ,in time for a Tory government where the Eurosceptics would have more leverage- which it clearly hasn't - I wonder what the orders from London and Washington will be for him to do next?
Yes, I was slow spotting the English connection with both Ganley and McEvaddey. Expatgirl pointed it out for me. It rings in many ways more true than a US connection - Ganley's views are actually at odds with most Neocons on the EU. But I thought I remembered you rightly pointing out that the Libertas social layer was more prone to vote Yes. The campaign was mainly successful for Libertas in getting cheap and easy PR.
Ganley describes his start as a tea boy in "an office in the City" (of London) - I'm not 100% sure but I think he says that he worked for Lloyds Marine Insurance Brokerage (as tea boy) and got given a phone and desk to follow up on an idea. Phoned the Soviet Trade delegation - went to Moscow (still in the USSR) at 19 with the idea of providing insurance for satellite launches ? His first business in metals trading was set up in Moscow whilst presumably still funded by his London City employer. All very interesting stuff.
Ye Know CF - that rags to richs story is getting dodgier and dodgier everyday now - particularly as nobody knows (or, more pointedly IMO, is telling) who he is in Eastern Europe and Russia- particularly in the businesses he said he was dealing in and that there is no trace of. The accumulation of so much weath (reputedly) is such a short space of time with no quantifable trace and the accumulation of so many contacts in the defense industry vaguely points in an interesting direction.
On a totally different subject - have you seen the film "Lord of War" with Nicolas Cage - it was on RTE last week
Subject: Re: Sarko goes to Ireland Wed Jul 16, 2008 4:58 am
Edo wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
Yes, I was slow spotting the English connection with both Ganley and McEvaddey. Expatgirl pointed it out for me. It rings in many ways more true than a US connection - Ganley's views are actually at odds with most Neocons on the EU. But I thought I remembered you rightly pointing out that the Libertas social layer was more prone to vote Yes. The campaign was mainly successful for Libertas in getting cheap and easy PR.
Ganley describes his start as a tea boy in "an office in the City" (of London) - I'm not 100% sure but I think he says that he worked for Lloyds Marine Insurance Brokerage (as tea boy) and got given a phone and desk to follow up on an idea. Phoned the Soviet Trade delegation - went to Moscow (still in the USSR) at 19 with the idea of providing insurance for satellite launches ? His first business in metals trading was set up in Moscow whilst presumably still funded by his London City employer. All very interesting stuff.
Ye Know CF - that rags to richs story is getting dodgier and dodgier everyday now - particularly as nobody knows (or, more pointedly IMO, is telling) who he is in Eastern Europe and Russia- particularly in the businesses he said he was dealing in and that there is no trace of. The accumulation of so much weath (reputedly) is such a short space of time with no quantifable trace and the accumulation of so many contacts in the defense industry vaguely points in an interesting direction.
On a totally different subject - have you seen the film "Lord of War" with Nicolas Cage - it was on RTE last week
I think it's all plugged into the "Atlanticist" framework of conservative groups - the Heritage Foundation encompasses the Margaret Thatcher Center for Freedom, which also makes appearances on the Conservative Home blog, which represents "grassroots conservatives".
Yes - linked via the Bruges Group, which is the intellectual inspiration for much British euroscepticism, both for the UKIP (see here, for example) and the Conservative Party (also Unionists), and which in turn has strong links to the Heritage Foundation (co-publishing a paper on the military implications of Galileo, for example), who in turn share certain figures with the FPRI. John Hillen, for example, is an FPRI Trustee and a Heritage Foundation Fellow - and also Assistant Secretary of State (Political-Military Affairs) in the Department of State, appointed by GW Bush, and director of "Future Visions for U.S. Defense Policy".
I suspect if one keeps digging, more and more of these names will link together - essentially, though, one is looking at the Atlanticist opposition to a 'socialist' Europe. It's also interesting that the Daily Mail has a UK version, an Irish version, and a Polish version...
Hmm...Declan Ganley...bag-boy for the Special Relationship?
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Subject: Re: Sarko goes to Ireland Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:12 am
Ullick McEvaddey as Irish Intelligence will have had extensive ongoing contacts with British counterparts over the years. Then we had that guy up in Wicklow, Frederick Forsyth wasn't it? out of a similar bag, intervening in Ireland for a Lisbon No. Forsyth heads the U.K. Military Covenant Commission and claims to have left the British forces when he became a journalist.
If you read what Ganley has been saying in US seminars, it goes against the mainstream Neocon line, which is to build up a strong militarised EU. Ganley talks and walks like a Brit, as does McEvaddey. Forsyth is a Brit (ish) eurosceptic, journalist, writer on Intelligence and intimate of the British armed forces. What gives Ganley his special flavour is his Hibernian Patriotism - is it for real, or is that one of the audiences here he is trying to make links with?
Sarkozy with federalism and his Rumsfeld-model army 'lite' would be a very different kettle of fish, much closer to the neocons.
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Subject: Re: Sarko goes to Ireland Wed Jul 16, 2008 11:16 am
I'm just going to copy these last few posts into a Libertas thread, so this thread can go back to Le Président.
Ullick McEvaddey as Irish Intelligence will have had extensive ongoing contacts with British counterparts over the years. Then we had that guy up in Wicklow, Frederick Forsyth wasn't it? out of a similar bag, intervening in Ireland for a Lisbon No. Forsyth heads the U.K. Military Covenant Commission and claims to have left the British forces when he became a journalist.
If you read what Ganley has been saying in US seminars, it goes against the mainstream Neocon line, which is to build up a strong militarised EU. Ganley talks and walks like a Brit, as does McEvaddey. Forsyth is a Brit (ish) eurosceptic, journalist, writer on Intelligence and intimate of the British armed forces. What gives Ganley his special flavour is his Hibernian Patriotism - is it for real, or is that one of the audiences here he is trying to make links with?
Hmm. I'd agree that the neocons want a militarised Europe, but they also want a pliable one. Consider the Iraq invasion - 15 out of the 27 EU countries joined the 'coalition of the willing'. Had it been an EU decision, France alone could have vetoed any involvement.
Ullick McEvaddey as Irish Intelligence will have had extensive ongoing contacts with British counterparts over the years. Then we had that guy up in Wicklow, Frederick Forsyth wasn't it? out of a similar bag, intervening in Ireland for a Lisbon No. Forsyth heads the U.K. Military Covenant Commission and claims to have left the British forces when he became a journalist.
If you read what Ganley has been saying in US seminars, it goes against the mainstream Neocon line, which is to build up a strong militarised EU. Ganley talks and walks like a Brit, as does McEvaddey. Forsyth is a Brit (ish) eurosceptic, journalist, writer on Intelligence and intimate of the British armed forces. What gives Ganley his special flavour is his Hibernian Patriotism - is it for real, or is that one of the audiences here he is trying to make links with?
Hmm. I'd agree that the neocons want a militarised Europe, but they also want a pliable one. Consider the Iraq invasion - 15 out of the 27 EU countries joined the 'coalition of the willing'. Had it been an EU decision, France alone could have vetoed any involvement.
Yes - doesnt Bush want first call for NATO on any engagement? bizarre thought isnt it. Was just looking at a CATO group study that says that if the ESDP takes off NATO is doomed. Dont think I agree -in fact the US is digging in in the Balkans in a big way. I think we should be watching them. Do you think perhaps they have WMDs?
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Subject: Re: Sarko goes to Ireland Thu Jul 17, 2008 12:40 am
cactus flower wrote:
ibis wrote:
cactus flower wrote:
Ullick McEvaddey as Irish Intelligence will have had extensive ongoing contacts with British counterparts over the years. Then we had that guy up in Wicklow, Frederick Forsyth wasn't it? out of a similar bag, intervening in Ireland for a Lisbon No. Forsyth heads the U.K. Military Covenant Commission and claims to have left the British forces when he became a journalist.
If you read what Ganley has been saying in US seminars, it goes against the mainstream Neocon line, which is to build up a strong militarised EU. Ganley talks and walks like a Brit, as does McEvaddey. Forsyth is a Brit (ish) eurosceptic, journalist, writer on Intelligence and intimate of the British armed forces. What gives Ganley his special flavour is his Hibernian Patriotism - is it for real, or is that one of the audiences here he is trying to make links with?
Hmm. I'd agree that the neocons want a militarised Europe, but they also want a pliable one. Consider the Iraq invasion - 15 out of the 27 EU countries joined the 'coalition of the willing'. Had it been an EU decision, France alone could have vetoed any involvement.
Yes - doesnt Bush want first call for NATO on any engagement? bizarre thought isnt it. Was just looking at a CATO group study that says that if the ESDP takes off NATO is doomed. Dont think I agree -in fact the US is digging in in the Balkans in a big way. I think we should be watching them. Do you think perhaps they have WMDs?
Ooh...maybe? There's been quite a few articles - Jane's Defence weekly comes to mind - suggesting things generally along those lines. I'm not very convinced that the US does want a militarised EU - European interests and US interests don't entirely coincide, and where they do, the US can already rely on the Brits and a 'coalition of the willing'.
Mind you, there certainly is a strand of US opinion that would prefer to disengage from "playing sheriff" and have the EU shoulder some of the load - but it's not the currently ascendant paradigm.
Well its going to be a short trip - down to four hours and falling...
He just wants an event to appear on TV. That's the only thing he does.He's not at the level of a head of state. The only thing he can do is remaining a hyperactive candidate.
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Number of posts : 4226 Registration date : 2008-03-11
Subject: Re: Sarko goes to Ireland Sat Jul 19, 2008 1:43 am
I'm delighted to hear Gilmore has declined to meet Sarky. I would have done the same myself.
That little bollix represents everything that irritates me about politics.
Well eh.. Deco irritates me even more, but at least ...oh. Forget that.
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Subject: Re: Sarko goes to Ireland Sat Jul 19, 2008 3:38 am
Sarko is a media whore then is he? Is it a mark of us getting mature as (or is it just me?) a society that we are not looking over-reverently at such figures.
He seems to be an annoying little runt all the same if he is a media vampire.
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Subject: Re: Sarko goes to Ireland Sat Jul 19, 2008 10:28 am
Even the members of his own party publicly acknowledge they are embarassed by him. I have a possible explanation to his recent declaration.He is psycologicaly fragile, and cannot handle personal relationships without resorting to insults and foul language. Everyday we have evidence of that.It is likely that the "Ireland will have to vote again" was already agreed in secret between the Irish government and the EU leaders, as secrecy is often the case. However, most probably the Irish government wanted to soothe the debate for the moment. But because Sarkozy could not handle a peaceful visit, he could not help establishing an unpleasant strength relationship before coming.PS: sorry the editor doesn't accept my formatting into paragraphs.
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Subject: Re: Sarko goes to Ireland Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:39 am
arnaudherve wrote:
Even the members of his own party publicly acknowledge they are embarassed by him. I have a possible explanation to his recent declaration.He is psycologicaly fragile, and cannot handle personal relationships without resorting to insults and foul language. Everyday we have evidence of that.It is likely that the "Ireland will have to vote again" was already agreed in secret between the Irish government and the EU leaders, as secrecy is often the case. However, most probably the Irish government wanted to soothe the debate for the moment. But because Sarkozy could not handle a peaceful visit, he could not help establishing an unpleasant strength relationship before coming.PS: sorry the editor doesn't accept my formatting into paragraphs.
I agree with most of this, but - problemo - there doesn't seem to be much confidence that a second vote could be a Yes. Particularly as the antisarkosytis disease looks likely to progressively drive even confirmed Yes people to vote No. I suspect that the Irish government is aware of this.
On johnfas' news above - on another topic altogether ..
Quote :
Sarkozy ekes out victory on constitutional changes
PARIS: President Nicolas Sarkozy of France won approval for important constitutional changes on Monday, but by a very narrow margin.
The changes, Sarkozy insisted, strengthen the power of Parliament and will make the president more accountable. But his critics, including the main opposition party, the Socialists, said they would increase the power of the already semiroyal president, creating a "monocracy."
Meeting in the chateau of Versailles, French lawmakers approved Sarkozy's proposals by 539 votes to 357, one vote more than the three-fifths majority required. To win, Sarkozy needed support from other parties; a defeat would have damaged his standing a little more than a year into his five-year term.
The changes limit the presidency to two five-year terms, eliminate the president's power to issue collective pardons and make certain appointments subject to parliamentary approval. Parliament must be informed within three days of any military operation abroad and must approve one lasting more than four months.
The changes give Parliament more control over its agenda and limit the right of presidential decree.
Looks like a non-event from here. The constitution is changed almost every year, mostly to adapt European treaties, so we don't know what is the constitution anymore.
The only thing that can be relevant to this forum is that previously the entry of any country in the EU had to be agreed by referendum, and Sarkozy made it so that two fifths of the assembly can block such a referendum.
Obviously, this prepares the entry of Turkey, which is quite a huge problem ahead.
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