What the Mainlanders are saying

If criticism is excessive, it becomes less credible, and reading the same phrases or almost the same articles throughout Europe may make you wonder if they are sincere.

I just discovered today the real strategic intention, reading my local newspaper. Sometimes local newspapers are revealing because that are less strictly subject to Eurocratic control.

It appears that all those declarations are not aimed towards the Irish, but towards the citizens of the rest of Europe. Including the declarations of your own government. It appears that the real intention is to prevent your example from spreading everywhere. Hence the vehement excommunication.

Frankfurter Allgemeine - another conservative newspaper

http://www.faz.net/s/RubAB001F8C99BB43319228DCC26EF52B47/Doc~EFB37FB20AD8C4520A27DC900FBC4E4F1~ATpl~Ecommon~Scontent.html

This Kommentar is less controversial but again points out that it can't be considered that if a large country has a problem with the EU, the EU has a problem; but if a small country has a problem with the EU then the country has a problem - in a Europe where each country has equal rights, this is not valid.

It goes on to say also that putting the referendum to the people again would be unworthy and there is no guarantee that the Czech, Brits and Poles who have not yet ratified the Treaty would stop their processes (in sympathy, I assume he means) and create a write-off out of the Irish minor accident.

And this, which is hinted at in the other text I think and which none of our leaders have had the grace to consider

Quote :

Offensichtlich sind die europäischen Völker nicht mehr bereit, den Weg mitzugehen, den ihre Regierungen für eine „immer engere Union“ gewählt haben. Das liegt daran, dass die europäischen Entscheidungsprozesse so komplex sind, dass sie kaum jemand versteht; demzufolge werden auch ihre Ergebnisse nicht mehr akzeptiert. Abstrakt gesagt: Sowohl die Erweiterung als auch die Vertiefung der EU stoßen auf Zweifel, die bei erster Gelegenheit in Ablehnung umschlagen – auch weil die Leute spüren, das beides gleichzeitig ohnehin nicht geht.

Clearly the European peoples are no longer prepared to follow the path that their governments have chosen for an "increasingly closer Europe." The reason for this is that the European decision making processes are so complex that hardly anyone understands them and as a result, their decisions/fruits are also no longer accepted. In abstract terms, not only the expansion but also the deepening of the EU has run into doubt which at the first opportunity is manifest as rejection/refusal - also because the people sense that as it is, both at the same time are not acceptable.

arnaudherve wrote:

If criticism is excessive, it becomes less credible, and reading the same phrases or almost the same articles throughout Europe may make you wonder if they are sincere.

I just discovered today the real strategic intention, reading my local newspaper. Sometimes local newspapers are revealing because that are less strictly subject to Eurocratic control.

It appears that all those declarations are not aimed towards the Irish, but towards the citizens of the rest of Europe. Including the declarations of your own government. It appears that the real intention is to prevent your example from spreading everywhere. Hence the vehement excommunication.

I'm not nearly as proficient in French as I am in German Arnaud, but I would suggest that what your local newspaper is proposing is very different to what I've seen in the two German opinion/editorial pieces I've just read.

Klaus on debateurope has lost it and is slobbering all over the net with Arbeit Macht Frei just inside his mouth, ready to spring out. Interesting what he says about the compacting of embassies etc. though ..

http://forums.ec.europa.eu/debateeurope/viewtopic.php?p=46008#46008

Quote :

More interesting are the comments. I just read the first ten and all refer to the Irish as heroes who stood up to the Big Guys and/or mention that many in Europe would have reached the same decision.

Has the "contagion" of democracy already spread ?

A couple Mainlanders turned up on p.ie recently thanking everyone ...

A German
http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?f=172&t=37241
http://www.jungewelt.de/2008/06-14/068.php

A Dutchman
http://www.politics.ie/viewtopic.php?f=172&t=37231

A Swede in debate europe
http://forums.ec.europa.eu/debateeurope/viewtopic.php?t=2610

Some Welsh on Welsh forum
http://forums.icwales.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=53569#53569

Big long thread here on the forum Auditor mentioned.

Ireland Scuppers The EU

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

Big long thread here on the forum Auditor mentioned.

Ireland Scuppers The EU

We really have got them talking, haven't we? We're the toast of Eurosceptics and the bete noire of the Europhiles, these are interesting times.

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

Big long thread here on the forum Auditor mentioned.

Ireland Scuppers The EU

We really have got them talking, haven't we? We're the toast of Eurosceptics and the bete noire of the Europhiles, these are interesting times.

True, but there is another very large group who are neither, who are backing Ireland.

molly bloom aka cactus f wrote:

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

Big long thread here on the forum Auditor mentioned.

Ireland Scuppers The EU

We really have got them talking, haven't we? We're the toast of Eurosceptics and the bete noire of the Europhiles, these are interesting times.

True, but there is another very large group who are neither, who are backing Ireland.

And that is quite encouraging. We are not alone in this rejection of the Lisbon Treaty, many others in Europe would have done the same if given the same opportunity.

Quote :

Ne rien dire mais n'en penser pas moins : même si les Irlandais paraissent pour le moment la récuser, France et Allemagne en tête, la plupart des Etats membres de l'Union considèrent que l'option d'un second vote en Irlande est à ce stade le seul moyen de sauver le traité de Lisbonne. Sans appeler ouvertement à une nouvelle consultation, cette solide majorité espère avancer dans cette voie cette semaine afin de limiter l'impact de la crise ouverte par les électeurs irlandais lors du référendum du 12juin.

Les gouvernements européens tentent d'éviter que le non irlandais tue le traité de Lisbonne

Le Monde in that article is saying that most of the Union Members believe that a second referendum in Ireland if passed is the only way this Treaty can be saved.

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

molly bloom aka cactus f wrote:

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

EvotingMachine0197 wrote:

Big long thread here on the forum Auditor mentioned.

Ireland Scuppers The EU

We really have got them talking, haven't we? We're the toast of Eurosceptics and the bete noire of the Europhiles, these are interesting times.

True, but there is another very large group who are neither, who are backing Ireland.

And that is quite encouraging. We are not alone in this rejection of the Lisbon Treaty, many others in Europe would have done the same if given the same opportunity.

That is encouraging only insofar as realpolitik doesn't apply. [EDIT]Thanks EVM![/EDIT]

Did you intend to add something there ibis ?

Steinmeier - German Social Democrat is very keen that Ireland "could exit the integration process for a time to clear the way for the Lisbon Treaty to come into force in 26 countries".

He also appears to be a strong supporter of a future EU army.
http://europeanfoundation.blogspot.com/2008/05/steinmeier-calls-for-european-army.html

Peers in House of Lords should postpone rubber-stamping of Lisbon Treaty – Lord Owen
Telegraph

Quote :

Lord Owen, the former foreign secretary, has called on peers to make a last stand to stop Britain endorsing the European Union's Lisbon Treaty, following its rejection by Irish voters.

The treaty will be formally ratified once it passes its final stage in the House of Lords on Wednesday – a move strongly backed by the Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, who has refused to stage a referendum on it.

However, with the EU plunged into crisis following the Irish “No” vote, Lord Owen said peers had one last chance to put the brakes on the process, by voting to put the treaty “on ice”.

The peer, a leading Eurosceptic, used an article in The Sunday Telegraph to call for an all-party move to postpone ratification until the EU had found a way forward.

Quote :

His comments came as Vaclav Klaus, the president of the Czech Republic, hammered another nail into the coffin of the treaty, which seeks to create the powerful new post of EU president while scrapping dozens of national vetoes and handing new powers to Brussels.

Mr Klaus called the Irish referendum vote a “victory of freedom and reason” and said “ratification cannot continue”. The Czech Republic is one of nine countries not to have yet ratified the treaty. It cannot be implemented until all 27 countries have ratified it.

Auditor #9 wrote:

Peers in House of Lords should postpone rubber-stamping of Lisbon Treaty – Lord Owen
Telegraph

Quote :

Lord Owen, the former foreign secretary, has called on peers to make a last stand to stop Britain endorsing the European Union's Lisbon Treaty, following its rejection by Irish voters.

The treaty will be formally ratified once it passes its final stage in the House of Lords on Wednesday – a move strongly backed by the Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, who has refused to stage a referendum on it.

However, with the EU plunged into crisis following the Irish “No” vote, Lord Owen said peers had one last chance to put the brakes on the process, by voting to put the treaty “on ice”.

The peer, a leading Eurosceptic, used an article in The Sunday Telegraph to call for an all-party move to postpone ratification until the EU had found a way forward.

Quote :

His comments came as Vaclav Klaus, the president of the Czech Republic, hammered another nail into the coffin of the treaty, which seeks to create the powerful new post of EU president while scrapping dozens of national vetoes and handing new powers to Brussels.

Mr Klaus called the Irish referendum vote a “victory of freedom and reason” and said “ratification cannot continue”. The Czech Republic is one of nine countries not to have yet ratified the treaty. It cannot be implemented until all 27 countries have ratified it.

There's a nice quote from Sarkozy, too:

Quote :

France has already ratified the treaty, giving Mr Sarkozy a free hand to flesh out a deal under the French EU presidency which starts on July 1. The ratification process needed to continue “so that the Irish incident does not become a crisis,” Mr Sarkozy said yesterday at a news conference with George Bush, the US president, who was visiting France.

I presume it's not a show=stopper that the House of Lords is processing the Insurance Policy at present and will conclude on Wednesday? Foregone conclusion I suppose..

Auditor #9 wrote:

I presume it's not a show=stopper that the House of Lords is processing the Insurance Policy at present and will conclude on Wednesday? Foregone conclusion I suppose..

Sadly, I read that David Owen was a bit of a Ganley in his day, and a political maverick. We will just have to do without No leaders that we'd go down the pub with.

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0616/breaking2.htm

It looks as if the Treaty may not pass in the Czech Republic.

molly bloom aka cactus f wrote:

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0616/breaking2.htm

It looks as if the Treaty may not pass in the Czech Republic.

The Czechs do seem to be the strongest candidate for a rejection of the Lisbon Treaty alongside Ireland. It'd be nice in a way since the heat would be partly off us but bad since it'd mean a special deal would have to be cut with the Czechs as well as us. On the whole, a Czech rejection would strengthen our hand in our attempts to re-structure the Treaty so that it can pass muster in a new referendum.

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

molly bloom aka cactus f wrote:

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0616/breaking2.htm

It looks as if the Treaty may not pass in the Czech Republic.

The Czechs do seem to be the strongest candidate for a rejection of the Lisbon Treaty alongside Ireland. It'd be nice in a way since the heat would be partly off us but bad since it'd mean a special deal would have to be cut with the Czechs as well as us. On the whole, a Czech rejection would strengthen our hand in our attempts to re-structure the Treaty so that it can pass muster in a new referendum.

I was talking to a Czech person today and it sounds as if the Czech in the street is more anti Lisbon than we are, but the issues are the same - sovereignty and militarism, weak social agenda and so on.

molly bloom aka cactus f wrote:

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

molly bloom aka cactus f wrote:

http://www.ireland.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0616/breaking2.htm

It looks as if the Treaty may not pass in the Czech Republic.

The Czechs do seem to be the strongest candidate for a rejection of the Lisbon Treaty alongside Ireland. It'd be nice in a way since the heat would be partly off us but bad since it'd mean a special deal would have to be cut with the Czechs as well as us. On the whole, a Czech rejection would strengthen our hand in our attempts to re-structure the Treaty so that it can pass muster in a new referendum.

I was talking to a Czech person today and it sounds as if the Czech in the street is more anti Lisbon than we are, but the issues are the same - sovereignty and militarism, weak social agenda and so on.

Oh, yes, certainly yes. Their Constitutional Court is apparently investigating whether or not the Treaty should be put to a referendum. They are the pressure point in this whole affair. If they join with us in rejecting the Treaty, a true re-think, rather than a superficial re-tuning of Lisbon, is in prospect. Austria also seems favourable to us. They were ostracised(or austricised, to be punbelievable) in 2000 after allowing the Freedom Party into their government. They do not want a similar exclusion to happen to Ireland, they'll watch our back.

"Our list of allies grows thin, Gandalf".

ibis wrote:

"Our list of allies grows thin, Gandalf".

Hardly, we'll turn this thing around.