The Lisbon Debate Continues

Quote :

cactus flower wrote:
1. The EU structures are not sufficiently democratic to risk handing any further sovereignty over to them.
2. Trying to create a EU unified State by stealth is anti-democratic and likely to be unstable in the extreme.
3. I'm opposed to the commitment to build up resources clearly intended as the basis of an EU army.
4. I'm opposed to the "Fortress Europe" concept
5. The Reform Treaty passed would continue to promote an agenda of privatisation.
6. The drafting of the Treaty is unclear and far too widely open to interpretation, with little chance of Ireland influencing the way it is interpreted.

Now I'm going to write to An Taoiseach to tell him why I voted No, so he can't pretend he doesn't know.

I voted no mainly because I am opposed to the EU. I see it as a rich man's club. I'm not going to dress it up and pretend I'm pro EU but...
Little-Lefty
Unity
Posts : 1
Joined : 29 May 2008

Re: Why I voted No
by cactus flower Today at 8:53 am

You said it better than I did, Little-Lefty.
i must have missed the eu super army article! i thought article 11 and 28 actually protected our neutrality. and to be frank, if germany, france and italy want to create a superarmy, they could/would do with or without lisbon.

are you opposed to a common trade area/customs union? because common customs/trade requires common border policy. there's no point in banning counterfeit goods yet say greece allowing counterfeit goods be transported across its border with turkey. it also specifically targets drug and people trafficking (hopefully preventing and saving young girls from developing countries being sold as sex slaves)

under lisbon, the EU becomes more accountable to the people through greater role for the democratically elected parliament (article 8c)

lisbon strengthens the role of national govts. i do not see this leading to a federal eu. lisbon gives us specific vetos over national defence/neutrality, health, social welfare and tax. articles 93 and 113.

it does not dilute ireland's say in the eu of the future (article 244)

Good post - but I have read the Treaty and my first post was my conclusion after having read it, and much else, and listened carefully to Ibis and others.
As this debate is going to go on, would you mind if I split the last two posts to start a Lisbon Debate Continues thread, and leave this one for the No voters to post in?

cactus flower wrote:

5. The Reform Treaty passed would continue to promote an agenda of privatisation.

CF - do you have any specific provisions in mind in relation to the above?

I'm going to take the liberty of splitting the thread, starting a thread for Yes voters, and moving the questions on my post into a Lisbon Debate Goes On thread, so that the thread I started can stay on topic. Hope you don't mind.


I'll be on the road most of today - I'll probably have to reply tomorrow

Cheers.

Speaking of continuing, what are your views on the likelihood of a second referendum? I feel that, if the result is No(very likely considering all the radio polls last week), then we could be told to vote again, especially if turnout disappoints.

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

Speaking of continuing, what are your views on the likelihood of a second referendum? I feel that, if the result is No(very likely considering all the radio polls last week), then we could be told to vote again, especially if turnout disappoints.

It was suggested earlier this week by the French Foreign Minister that we should 'go again'. I guess a lot would depend on whether there was any reaction from states that didn't have a referendum, in particular the UK, who had been promised one and have a very shaky unpopular government.

cactus flower wrote:

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

Speaking of continuing, what are your views on the likelihood of a second referendum? I feel that, if the result is No(very likely considering all the radio polls last week), then we could be told to vote again, especially if turnout disappoints.

It was suggested earlier this week by the French Foreign Minister that we should 'go again'. I guess a lot would depend on whether there was any reaction from states that didn't have a referendum, in particular the UK, who had been promised one and have a very shaky unpopular government.

Turnout remains dissatisfying, I think the government could use that to invalidate the poll and make us vote again. They might say the result does not have sufficient support in the Irish electorate.

You have no idea -well, actually you probably do - what a potential impact this decision will have in the UK. Last night was one of the shabbiest, most disgusting nights in the Hse of Commons. Brown is such a loser and I really don't say that with any joy.
All afternoon, work colleagues have asked me when the Irish vote will come in - disappointed it might only be tomorrow eve. I have been surrounded by such absolutely ingrained, ignorant Euroscepticism - no, it's Europhobia - for so long, it's mentally draining.
However, most people would love to have a chance at a referendum - the biggest "up your delors" chance since the 70s. And Brown is in such a weak position ...
If Ireland has to vote again, there would be a real campaign to have one here too ...

If there is a second referendum on this treaty I would be more than willing to take up arms against this government.

Atticus wrote:

However, most people would love to have a chance at a referendum - the biggest "up your delors" chance since the 70s. And Brown is in such a weak position ...
If Ireland has to vote again, there would be a real campaign to have one here too ...

I wonder about the validity of a UK referendum given the UK's long-running lukewarm support and engagement with the European project. I feel that there is too much Europhobia, as you put it, to ensure an acceptable level of concentration on the actual issues of concern relating to the Treaty.

Countries like Denmark, Sweden, Belgium and Spain would be better candidates for referenda than the UK, since they have a better involvement in European affairs and do not have a reflexive fear of Europe and what it means.

AfricanDave wrote:

If there is a second referendum on this treaty I would be more than willing to take up arms against this government.

Really?

That seems a bit extreme, how about simply voting against them in the next General Election?

I already voted against them in the last general election and that didn't do much good.
I think that if the government choose to ignore the democratic will of the people who elected them to their positions then they cease to act with the authority of a legitimate government.

AfricanDave wrote:

I already voted against them in the last general election and that didn't do much good.
I think that if the government choose to ignore the democratic will of the people who elected them to their positions then they cease to act with the authority of a legitimate government.

But what if they get a good re-negotiation of the Treaty?

If there is a proper re-negotiation of the treaty then I would consider that to be a different treaty.
However, if like Nice 2 they come back with a promise or derogation over some non-issue like abortion or tax then it's still the same treaty.
I would like to see the changes proposed under Lisbon brought about in the EU but the way they went about it with this treaty was not to my liking.

AfricanDave wrote:

If there is a proper re-negotiation of the treaty then I would consider that to be a different treaty.
However, if like Nice 2 they come back with a promise or derogation over some non-issue like abortion or tax then it's still the same treaty.
I would like to see the changes proposed under Lisbon brought about in the EU but the way they went about it with this treaty was not to my liking.

I'd agree with that, AfricanDave. I feel that we could indeed see some form of Lisbon II here, with some form of special derogation in the area of tax.

The tax was the one I was thinking to be the most likely.
I don't think anyone really took the abortion threats seriously but quite a few people I have spoken to about the treaty were worried about Ireland's low corporation tax rate being at risk from harmonisation.

What about militarisation? Federalisation?

Militarisation was another concern among those I spoke to but not nearly as big an issue as the tax.
Federalisation didn't seem to come up at all. I suppose the saying about appealing to the voters' pockets seems to be true.
In saying that, I'm not in any way involved in any campaign and the only discussion I've had about the treaty was sitting around friends' kitchen tables drinking coffee.

Out of curiosity, did all of those friends go out to vote?

2 that I have spoken to today say they did, and voted No.

My two brothers are staying with me at the moment and neither would go to vote - despite major encouragement. One would have voted yes but said he'd rather take it easy after work and the other said he didn't know enough about it and that people hadn't died to achieve democracy for him to screw it up with a vote made in ignorance.

Kate P wrote:

...and the other said he didn't know enough about it and that people hadn't died to achieve democracy for him to screw it up with a vote made in ignorance.

Quote of the referendum for me.

I suppose the second brother has a bit of a point in what he says but the other one is just lazy and a bad citizen. (I am being a little bit cheeky and don't mean to insult your family)

I had to do a considerable amount of nagging to get my girlfriend to go and vote - she's 30 and today was the first time she's ever voted.

Yep, he is lazy and I imagine there are thousands like him across the country who just couldn't have been bothered. Ironically he was quite annoyed that I was voting no - but that wasn't enough to enthuse him to venture out.

I'll be at the count tomorrow - my first one. I'm looking forward to seeing how it goes. The expectation is that the result should be in early enough - by 2pm.

Does the counting all happen in the one place? I know the RDS is used, but is that for the entire country or just for Dublin?
Can anyone just turn up and observe the count?
I'm doing nothing tomorrow and would actually be very interested to go and see the votes being counted.