A French View of Lisbon

I posted this here earlier and Kate P whipped it away and made a new thread.

Link to Post on Sutherland

Peter Sutherland is a prime example of self interest operating on the Yes side - I don't think there is anything unnatural about it.

Both Edo and Arnaud have said that to a large extent the Yes and No sides are have and have nots (or worrieds), respectively. There is a real issue of the extent to which the perceived lack of democratic structures and elitism of the EU have broken down trust. There is also a payback factor in that people have not forgotten or forgiven what happened last time they voted No.

I understood the post well enough. Maybe it is about credibility of which these people who are preaching have been shown to not even having read the treaty. Maybe the people outside the country who are pleading for a no vote are having an impact as well. The latest scare talk about the economic impact is just icing on the cake because it reinforces the mindset that the voter is been taken for a fool. Everyone can see the economy is screwed and has been for some time.

Sorry for the length of the first post. In fact it was written as an article for another website.

There are the have and have nots, and there are also those who don't have much, but are in a situation where their jobs and income cannot be threatened by the changes.

For them, it is easy to develop a mentality in which they see opponents as lunatics.

For example, the personal experience of having to sell your car in a situation where you absolutely need a car is something they cannot really understand. They can reply people should be more environmentally conscious and ride a bike. That's an answer our finance minister actually gave in public recently, talking about inflation and family hardships.

They also cannot understand what it feels like living in a third-world immigrants neighborhood with violent teen-agers. They will say those who complain are xenophobes.

It's.. Let them eat Cake time all over again. Your jokers in France sound like some the fools of politicians in Massachusetts. Who is the leader back there nowadays, Petain

Hi, during the eighties and nineties we observed in France a tsunami of references to Pétain, Hitler and the like, not to describe WWII, but on any completely different issues you could think of.

Therefore people here tend to avoid WWII references now. It had risen to a point where no debate was possible.

arnaudherve wrote:

Therefore people here tend to avoid WWII references now. It had risen to a point where no debate was possible.

We wouldn't like that to happen here so youngdan will have made his first and last reference to Petain there, won't you youngdan? Be nice to our French visitor now youngdan - after all, those were the people who gave you the lovely Statue in the Hudson that keeps getting destroyed by Hollywood.

We happen to have a forum here called 'The Valve' where people can go if they want to do some Primal Screaming i.e. , vent their frustration/anger/bile and generally let off steam. Now and again it's good to let off steam.

I will never mention him again. The reference would not have offended our friend if my reading of his opinions are correct. Everything he has said so far I agree with and I feel that he believes some of the present leaders have let them down. If I am wrong then he might think I am giving him a dig but that is the opposite to what my intention was. If he was offended then I apologise as it were more mistake than malice

I was not offended at all.

Pardon me, my misreading of both of you then - "Don't mention the War"and all which is a Fawlty Towers reference to the Germans but it might apply to the French too.

Were you talking about the French Resistance youngdan?

Personally I was talking more in terms of clarity of debate than in terms of national feelings.

I don't mind talking of WWII in case the topic is WWII, or in case there are circumstances that make the comparison relevant.

There was a question recently about which French political forum would be interesting for those of you who want contacts.

Well, the cultural level of forums in France is far inferior to what I can see in Ireland. You will often waste your time with people who are impolite, or way too irrational, or who will not really concentrate on Ireland.

This is why I recommend going directly to the forum of the political sciences school in Paris. It is there that you will have the most rewarding discussions, I think:

http://forum-scpo.com/

Hi Arnaudherve

Your last post makes me wonder if it would be possible to link up with a couple of similar chat fora across Europe, to create a sort of pan-Europe discussion .... no, what am I dreaming about?! Way too complicated and impractical. Would be so wonderful though.

Best wishes

The French Connection is certainly live today -
France's Foreign Minister has warned that Ireland will be "the first victim" if voters reject the Lisbon Treaty in this Thursday's referendum.
In an interview today, Bernard Kouchner says Ireland had benefited more than others from the EU and Europe should be able to count on the Irish for support.
He says Irish voters would only be punishing themselves if they voted 'no'.

(link to this posted by Aragon on the Irish Times thread- thanks)


Posters on Yahoo had some interesting responses to this

http://www.lejdd.fr/cmc/scanner/international/200824/irlande-traite-kouchner-defend-le-oui_124019.html?popup

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080608235922AA1KvZJ

Kouchner's language is vehement, to say the least.

Almost a tragedy actor. Full interview here:

http://www.rtl.fr/fiche/146420/bernard-kouchner-tout-le-monde-se-tourne-vers-l-europe-au-moment-ou-on-la-refuse-a-l-interieur.html

He also evoked asking the Irish to vote again

Atticus wrote:

Hi Arnaudherve

Your last post makes me wonder if it would be possible to link up with a couple of similar chat fora across Europe, to create a sort of pan-Europe discussion .... no, what am I dreaming about?! Way too complicated and impractical. Would be so wonderful though.

Best wishes

Why not make it international?
http://www.perupolitica.com/ (peru)

http://www.latrinchera.org/foros/forumdisplay.php?f=4 (mexico)
http://foro.univision.com/univision/board?board.id=noticias_mexico
mexican blog
http://es.wordpress.com/tag/foro-politico/

http://forum.onlineopinion.com.au/thread.asp?article=4574 (Australia)

http://www.theworldforum.org/

Edo wrote:

The point Im trying to make is - is it any fecking wonder the country is in the state it is - we live in a nation of total me-feiners - if they can even see their own noses - let alone beyond it - I would deem them cosmopolitian .

Edo, I have done my share of canvassing before and I have to say that while it is true that people don't necessarily engage in the issues my experience is that the majority of them have a social conscience.
Secondly, it makes sense to tell the canvassers what is on your mind when you meet them. People don't get that opportunity generally. Smart politicians will be taking note.
Thirdly, as me fein as it seems, if you are an interest group which cannot get heard by the Government or the media then now is the time to shout. The farmers have put the WTO at the forefront of people's minds which is great for them. Their motives were selfish, but it they thought they couldn't make progress otherwise then what other options did they have?

arnaudherve wrote:

As for the technical issue raised by Ibis, since I don't have the necessary intelligence to follow the same thread on two different forums, if he allows me I will answer him on politics.ie

Can somebody tell me what p.ie thread this is on?

Link as Requested

Cheers Zhou

This is the whole interview:

Quote :

L'Irlande - Alain Duhamel en parlait à l'instant - votera donc jeudi par référendum sur le projet de Constitution européenne. Le "non", selon certains sondages, paraît être en mesure de pouvoir l'emporter, en tout cas c'est très disputé. Quelles conséquences aurait un "non" des Irlandais sur cette Constitution européenne, Bernard Kouchner ?

Si j'étais superstitieux, je ne vous répondrais pas et je vous répondrais peu. Nous faisons tout pour que le "non" disparaisse des esprits et que le "oui" l'emporte. Je crois que la première victime d'un "non" éventuel auquel je ne veux pas croire, ce serait les Irlandais.

Oui, ils en ont profité plus que les autres. Oui, ils ne sont pas contents parce que peut-être on ne leur a pas dit que l'Europe était affrontée au reste du Monde et que pour avoir des atouts pour eux-mêmes, pour les Irlandais, pour développer leur commerce, leurs industries florissantes depuis que l'Europe est , depuis qu'ils sont au cœur de l'Europe, eh bien il faut que l'Europe se développe, qu'elle aille dans le sens du Traité de Lisbonne. Tout le monde va le ratifier. Ce serait quand même très, très, très gênant pour la pensée honnête qu'on ne puisse compter sur les Irlandais qui, eux, ont beaucoup compté sur l'argent de l'Europe.

Si un pays manquait à l'appel, les 26 pourraient-ils appliquer le Traité ? Ou le Traité serait-il définitivement loin ?

Théoriquement non. Théoriquement non. Je pense qu'il faudrait poursuivre en ce qui concerne la France puisque nous serons Président à partir du 1er juillet, il faudrait continuer, s'acharner, aller très vite, continuer sur les priorités que nous avons définies et puis tenter de convaincre les Irlandais qui ont déjà revoté une fois à propos du Traité de Nice justement, de remettre ce Traité sur le métier. Difficile situation qu'on commence à envisager un peu partout avec comme dirais-je, de l'espoir certainement c'est nécessaire, mais un peu d'incompréhension qui va se transformer en une gigantesque incompréhension. Ce n'est pas en étant seul qu'on arrivera à faire face ; et au contraire, vraiment les Irlandais se pénaliseraient.

He appears to be saying that we will have to vote again, n'est ce pas ?

Thanks CF.

Looking at that thread, it appears that arnaud never did come up with an answer to ibis's post.

The only way I could imagine legislation being forced through without the EP would be if it could be put through the unanimous system after it failed to make it through codecision (i.e., QMV and EP approval). However, as far as I can see, that cannot be done because the treaties dictate what comes under co-decision and what doesn't.

Atticus wrote:

Hi Arnaudherve

Your last post makes me wonder if it would be possible to link up with a couple of similar chat fora across Europe, to create a sort of pan-Europe discussion .... no, what am I dreaming about?! Way too complicated and impractical. Would be so wonderful though.

Best wishes

To add to Auditor's:

Debate Europe

Here's a thread from ibis' link that really goes to show that there are loo-laas supporting the yes side as well as the no side in this treaty.
I should probably point out that I'm not in any way attacking either side - I haven't quite made up my mind which way to vote.

AfricanDave wrote:

Here's a thread from ibis' link that really goes to show that there are loo-laas supporting the yes side as well as the no side in this treaty.
I should probably point out that I'm not in any way attacking either side - I haven't quite made up my mind which way to vote.

Yes, he's completely bananas, I think. There's a whole thread there somewhere with No supporters trying to get a word in, and him just going YEEEEHHHHAHAHAH all over them.

And yes, cf, I saw you being cheeky there. Don't think you've gotten away with it.

AfricanDave wrote:

Here's a thread from ibis' link that really goes to show that there are loo-laas supporting the yes side as well as the no side in this treaty.
I should probably point out that I'm not in any way attacking either side - I haven't quite made up my mind which way to vote.

Debate Europe wrote:

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MickeyMcAdden wrote:

The very first thing that must be done in Ireland is rounding up the foreigners, charging them with treason, putting them in jail and prosecuting them.

Next, is deporting back to N Carolina the Bob Jones University Evangelists - btw these folks here preach anti Catholic anti Irish religion mainly -. but first marking their passports 'Persona non grata!'

Next will be dealing with the suicidal kooks who have invested so much time and wasted so much money in a lost cause. Providing care for them as well as a one way ticket on RyanAir back home where they can be mad in the comfort of their own pommy communities.

Last will be selecting the person whom Ireland will support for the President of the European Council as set out in the Lisbon Treaty.


VOTING YES AT THE LISBON TREATY REFERENDUM ON JUNE 12TH

Cheers

Hmm. Actually, that could be moved to the modding discussion.

ibis wrote:

AfricanDave wrote:

Here's a thread from ibis' link that really goes to show that there are loo-laas supporting the yes side as well as the no side in this treaty.
I should probably point out that I'm not in any way attacking either side - I haven't quite made up my mind which way to vote.

Yes, he's completely bananas, I think. There's a whole thread there somewhere with No supporters trying to get a word in, and him just going YEEEEHHHHAHAHAH all over them.

And yes, cf, I saw you being cheeky there. Don't think you've gotten away with it.

It was the 30 Second rule Ibis - you were too slow - you should have replied while the iron was hot. I like your hat by the way