Arguments about climate change

cactus flower wrote:

youngdan wrote:

Not only are you missing something but you seem to be missing everything. The entire industrial base of the United States is nearly all gone overseas already. The industrial base in Ireland is likely to follow suit. Over here the big shots make millions and everyone else struggles.

They will go wherever the wages are lowest, they are in it to make a profit. There are some even moving to the US for precisely that reason (low wages, low dollars - US people can't afford to import).

Exactly. Where manufacturing can be kept in-country more profitably, it invariably is. It may be short-sighted, but it's not part of a conspiracy - it's a result of wage structures and environmental legislation. Pollution-intensive industries move to less regulated countries, and price-sensitive industries to lower-paid ones.

The environmental legislation usually results from people not actually wanting to live in a poisoned land, not some weird self-defeating plot by the elites.

youngdan wrote:

Well can everybody at least agree that the very rich do not care about us. They have concluded that the Earth can not sustain it's present population.

Have they?

youngdan wrote:

Of course they will move to where the wages are lowest. The end result is low wages everywhere. That is the whole game plan. People will not be able to afford to eat even. The US has been turned into a 3rd world economy and Ireland is next. The strange thing is it is left wing people who think this is a good idea. When George Bush senior on that video talked about the new world order do you not believe him.

No, because it makes absolutely feck-all sense. If you want your country to be militarily strong, and economically dominant, you don't send your industry abroad. You keep it at home. And you pay high wages because then people can afford things.

Without disposable income, people can't buy. Nobody buys, no sales. No sales, no business. No business, no industry.

Why is it that most American industry is overseas? Purely because of low tax? How does Swedish industry survive? Or German industry? The EU must have massively protected markets.

ibis wrote:

youngdan wrote:

Of course they will move to where the wages are lowest. The end result is low wages everywhere. That is the whole game plan. People will not be able to afford to eat even. The US has been turned into a 3rd world economy and Ireland is next. The strange thing is it is left wing people who think this is a good idea. When George Bush senior on that video talked about the new world order do you not believe him.

No, because it makes absolutely feck-all sense. If you want your country to be militarily strong, and economically dominant, you don't send your industry abroad. You keep it at home. And you pay high wages because then people can afford things.

Without disposable income, people can't buy. Nobody buys, no sales. No sales, no business. No business, no industry.

And isn't that exactly where the US has found itself? If a US firm paid higher wages than its competitor in Mexico, it would in go bust. It is a race to the bottom.

The industry is gone. The high wages are gone. the military is depleted, the national guards are ruined, the economy is not dominant it is broke. Everything that you say makes absolutely feck all sense has already happened. That is why more people here understand what is happening by the day.

cactus flower wrote:

ibis wrote:

youngdan wrote:

Of course they will move to where the wages are lowest. The end result is low wages everywhere. That is the whole game plan. People will not be able to afford to eat even. The US has been turned into a 3rd world economy and Ireland is next. The strange thing is it is left wing people who think this is a good idea. When George Bush senior on that video talked about the new world order do you not believe him.

No, because it makes absolutely feck-all sense. If you want your country to be militarily strong, and economically dominant, you don't send your industry abroad. You keep it at home. And you pay high wages because then people can afford things.

Without disposable income, people can't buy. Nobody buys, no sales. No sales, no business. No business, no industry.

And isn't that exactly where the US has found itself? If a US firm paid higher wages than its competitor in Mexico, it would in go bust. It is a race to the bottom.

Blast. The answers here are very complex. There is a race to the bottom - but there is also competition in the overseas employment pool for skilled and semi-skilled workers. So there is a positive benefit in that outsourcing is raising wages in the overseas economies (to the point where Bangalore salaries are now pretty much the same as in the places that jobs are outsourced from) - in one sense it's the most honest and valuable form of overseas aid ever.

In other senses, well, has the US unemployment rate massively increased as a result of globalisation? Answer: no (see here). Has the average wage fallen dramatically? Answer: no. See here. Has inflation gone up hugely? Answer: no. See .here.

So, what effect has the "flight of industry" actually had? The answer appears to be that it has shifted jobs from locations and sectors to others. Which is, of course, exactly what happened here during the Celtic Tiger.

youngdan wrote:

The industry is gone. The high wages are gone.

From certain areas only. The ex-industrial areas do suffer, but other areas benefit.

youngdan wrote:

the military is depleted, the national guards are ruined,

That would be the result of the US fighting beyond its means.

youngdan wrote:

the economy is not dominant it is broke.

That would be the result of the US living beyond its means.

youngdan wrote:

Everything that you say makes absolutely feck all sense has already happened. That is why more people here understand what is happening by the day.

No, it means people are looking for explanations that allow them to feel deliberately victimised rather than either unlucky or responsible.

Unemployment rates are measured differently here because after 6 months you are off the dole and on your own and not counted. Who knows what the unemployment rate is. When a person loses a high paying job he ends up earning a fraction in his next non industrial job. Even though you agree this makes no sense they have actually happened. Let us look at the military. They are depleted by design. They are paid peanuts and ground to pulp in unprotected hum Vees in a war that is fought not to win but to continue. While this is happening Blackwater mercenaries are paid 1000 dollars a day beside them. The Blackwater army is 200000 strong. Anyone can believe the happy talk but reality is setting in.

youngdan wrote:

Unemployment rates are measured differently here because after 6 months you are off the dole and on your own and not counted. Who knows what the unemployment rate is. When a person loses a high paying job he ends up earning a fraction in his next non industrial job. Even though you agree this makes no sense they have actually happened. Let us look at the military. They are depleted by design. They are paid peanuts and ground to pulp in unprotected hum Vees in a war that is fought not to win but to continue. While this is happening Blackwater mercenaries are paid 1000 dollars a day beside them. The Blackwater army is 200000 strong. Anyone can believe the happy talk but reality is setting in.

And who do Blackwater employ?

youngdan wrote:

Unemployment rates are measured differently here because after 6 months you are off the dole and on your own and not counted. Who knows what the unemployment rate is. When a person loses a high paying job he ends up earning a fraction in his next non industrial job. Even though you agree this makes no sense they have actually happened. Let us look at the military. They are depleted by design. They are paid peanuts and ground to pulp in unprotected hum Vees in a war that is fought not to win but to continue. While this is happening Blackwater mercenaries are paid 1000 dollars a day beside them. The Blackwater army is 200000 strong. Anyone can believe the happy talk but reality is setting in.

Industry that left the US for Ireland is now on its way to Poland and the Czech Republic. It will stay until the wages and costs go up as it did here. G O knows where it will go when every corner of the globe with available workers has been tried. We will probably have bigger problems that wage differentials by then.

I can understand that people are angry. But finding the real reasons and understanding how this has happened is important if we are to do anything about the bad situation people are finding themselves in. It is important that we try to base our understanding on proven fact. Speculation can be useful, but it doesn't mean that what we think might be an explanation is true.

The rates of profit of industry are constantly being squeezed by rising costs of all kinds and the only ways industry has of remaining profitable are to squeeze wages and to expand in size.

Blackwater employs every low life scum that they can find like every other mercenary army everyplace in history. They kill for money. I have read that 40% are American. The rest are from God knows where. Have a gander at this and tell me what you think http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3526900941780368656&q=blackwater+shooting+for+fun&ei=uPYcSJTuCaWCrALcvt29Ag&hl=en

Cactus, wages are not going to go up in Poland they are going to go down in Ireland. Have a look at that Blackwater clip above, that is why we need our guns. I expect Blackwater to find employment in Ireland as well

The reason why they are going up in Poland is that there are a large number of inward investment firms setting up there - these firms will be competing for the best employees and wages will go up from where they are now. When the grants or tax incentives run out and when wages creep up they will move on.

We already have a foreign army in the country. They managed to stay here because they've kept the people in the country fighting each other.

That Blackwater clip is chilling but has little to do with environmentalism. Open another thread on it if you like dan.

youngdan wrote:

Blackwater employs every low life scum that they can find like every other mercenary army everyplace in history. They kill for money. I have read that 40% are American. The rest are from God knows where. Have a gander at this and tell me what you think http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3526900941780368656&q=blackwater+shooting+for+fun&ei=uPYcSJTuCaWCrALcvt29Ag&hl=en

Mercenary armies usually hire ex-servicemen if they can get them. Blackwater is not different in this respect as far as I've heard.

I've seen the video before. It tells me only that young men with guns and a good deal of license are liable to act badly, which we know from the Black and Tans. It tells me nothing about the world situation.

The same trick is used today. The left is played off against the right and up until recently most fell for it. I am still waiting for someone to point out any great difference in ff/fg . This guy Alex Jones points out the fascist police state taking place and he is the one made out to be right wing. If Naom Chomsky had made it the lefties would be fawning over it. Well seeing is believing. That is why I am so looking forward to Cynthia McKinney of the Green Party. She is extreme left and she will cut Obama down to size not to talk about the other corpse.

youngdan wrote:

The same trick is used today. The left is played off against the right and up until recently most fell for it. I am still waiting for someone to point out any great difference in ff/fg . This guy Alex Jones points out the fascist police state taking place and he is the one made out to be right wing. If Naom Chomsky had made it the lefties would be fawning over it. Well seeing is believing. That is why I am so looking forward to Cynthia McKinney of the Green Party. She is extreme left and she will cut Obama down to size not to talk about the other corpse.

Not even FF/FG pretend they're left or right.

When can we look forward to that debate youngdan?

It tells me plenty because once everyone is subject to these laws brought in under the guise of global warming the enforsement arm will not be your local garda.

That is my point there is no difference between them.

The sooner the better Auditor but they will try to silence her. The last good roasting I saw was when George Galloway went before the Senate and did a number on Coleman the lawyer and Levin. http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8974188609452324001&q=coleman+levin+galloway&ei=dAAdSMidK4WqrgLMytXHAg&hl=en

I watched that treeless courtroom drama with Galloway and Coleman. I didn't think Galloway gave him a roasting so much - Coleman sounded like he had convincing documents linking Galloway to oil deals or at least knowing about oil deals. Is this still going on? It sounds a bit scandalous this senator accusing Galloway like that or discrediting him or trying to. There must be a lot in the background to this and maybe it's a long-running dispute between Galloway and Coleman...

Scientists creating worldwide database of Tree DNA

Hmm. Warming "on a break" - not actually on a break, but what would otherwise be a decade of cooling masking most of the rise:



From the Beeb.

As far as I remember from the IPCC reports, they are aiming to keep the rise down to 2 degrees, and human society has no experience of life on the planet at 3 or more degrees higher than at present?

Unfortunately the pressures and in particular rainforest felling are projected to increase. I would not want to be without the UN in this situation, as it is probably the only body through which we can take useful action.

Nice to see in yesterday's papers that the whales are back off Chile, after a conservation programme. We dealt with the CFCs reasonably well. We may as well give the bigger ones like energy a shot too.