Arguments about climate change

A neofascist? He is a democrat and has run for the presidential nomination of the democrat party about 6 times

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyndon_LaRouche

Sometimes I don't know where ye get yeer ideas from

youngdan wrote:

A neofascist? He is a democrat and has run for the presidential nomination of the democrat party about 6 times

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lyndon_LaRouche

Sometimes I don't know where ye get yeer ideas from

Well, exactly - from your link:

[edit] Allegations of covert fascistic tendencies
In addition to condemning anti-Semitism, LaRouche publications strongly denounce fascism and warn that it is an ever-present danger. However, there is a grouping of critics that allege that LaRouche covertly supports fascistic policies. This grouping includes Dennis King, Chip Berlet, Russ Bellant, and Tim Wohlforth. According to Wohlforth and Dennis Tourish:

The parallel between LaRouche's thinking and that of the classical fascist model is striking. LaRouche, like Mussolini and Hitler before him, borrowed from Marx yet changed his theories fundamentally. Most important, Marx's internationalist outlook was abandoned in favor of a narrow nation-state perspective. Marx's goal of abolishing capitalism was replaced by the model of a totalitarian state that directs an economy where ownership of the means of production is still largely in public hands. The corporations and their owners remain in place but have to take their orders from LaRouche. Hitler called the schema "national socialism". LaRouche hopes the term "the American System" will be more acceptable.[64]

youngdan wrote:

Sometimes I don't know where ye get yeer ideas from

Most posters on this site think that every time they read your increasingly ridiculous posts.

*Popcorn out*

Well Cactus he is a democrat. So is Robert Byrd who was a wizard in the KKK so maybe they are all fascists.

As regards Papal, everyone else is ignoring him so so shall I. When and if any of his opinions prove correct then maybe he will be listened to.

Meanwhile the economy crashs like I said it would, Obama is looking as stupid as I said he will.

Let's see who the news channels are asking advice of as the disastor unfolds

http://www.dailypaul.com/node/78548

Enjoy Papal because there is an Irish Ron Paul coming to get you

youngdan wrote:

Well Cactus he is a democrat. So is Robert Byrd who was a wizard in the KKK so maybe they are all fascists.

As regards Papal, everyone else is ignoring him so so shall I. When and if any of his opinions prove correct then maybe he will be listened to.

Meanwhile the economy crashs like I said it would, Obama is looking as stupid as I said he will.

Let's see who the news channels are asking advice of as the disastor unfolds

http://www.dailypaul.com/node/78548

Enjoy Papal because there is an Irish Ron Paul coming to get you

Well I have no more confidence in Obama than you (although he is far from stupid), but I note that your predictions about Guantanamo and torture look shaky at this stage. We are getting out the red carpet here for our first asylum seeker from that montrous hell-hole.

It was not me that made any predictions about torture etc

youngdan wrote:

It was not me that made any predictions about torture etc

Just Guantanamo?

I never ever mentioned that word for 3 reasons.
1 Politicians I don't like want it closed
2 They have other sites elsewhere so the issue is bogus
3 Who can spell it without checking.

So recheck my predictions

Scores on the doors - temperature anomalies for 2008:



Source: NASA Earth Observatory

Ibis - I would be really interested to see a 10,000 year ( or longer ) graph, if you have one that you think is reliable.

What do you think caused the flattening off from 1945-1980?

cactus flower wrote:

Ibis - I would be really interested to see a 10,000 year ( or longer ) graph, if you have one that you think is reliable.

I thought I had already put one up - I'll have a look.

cactus flower wrote:

What do you think caused the flattening off from 1945-1980?

Well, some of it was the devastation of European industry by the war, which took much of the 50's to be reversed (and then time for the greenhouse effect to kick back in), but also the cooling effect of sulphate air pollution. Do you remember the "acid rain" debates in the 1970's? Opposed in much the same way by the youngdan's of the time:

Quote :

Industrial emissions have been blamed as the major cause of acid rain. Because the chemical reactions involved in the production of acid rain in the atmosphere are complex and as yet little understood, industries have tended to challenge such assessments and to stress the need for further studies; and because of the cost of pollution reduction, governments have tended to support this attitude.

As a result, heavy reductions in sulphate emissions were made - in the US by a market mechanism similar to Kyoto (and decried in much the same terms by Greens on one side and youngdans on the other as either 'pandering to the market' or 'a scam' respectively).

ibis wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

Ibis - I would be really interested to see a 10,000 year ( or longer ) graph, if you have one that you think is reliable.

I thought I had already put one up - I'll have a look.

cactus flower wrote:

What do you think caused the flattening off from 1945-1980?

Well, some of it was the devastation of European industry by the war, which took much of the 50's to be reversed (and then time for the greenhouse effect to kick back in), but also the cooling effect of sulphate air pollution. Do you remember the "acid rain" debates in the 1970's? Opposed in much the same way by the youngdan's of the time:

Quote :

Industrial emissions have been blamed as the major cause of acid rain. Because the chemical reactions involved in the production of acid rain in the atmosphere are complex and as yet little understood, industries have tended to challenge such assessments and to stress the need for further studies; and because of the cost of pollution reduction, governments have tended to support this attitude.

As a result, heavy reductions in sulphate emissions were made - in the US by a market mechanism similar to Kyoto (and decried in much the same terms by Greens on one side and youngdans on the other as either 'pandering to the market' or 'a scam' respectively).

The war period was surely one of intensified industrial production and use of oil and coal? Massive ship building, arms, tanks, rail etc. There was a bit of a flat period perhaps in the 1950s with change over to war to commodity production, but by the 60s things were surely booming? It seems to be a sudden drop off, if it was related to human activity. Unless it related more to the depression before the war? a world industrial production chart might help. What about population levels...

I've posted an oil graph just below here - it doesn't show the same flattening off at all, either at the same time, or before.

This must give a rough idea.

As I predicted you will be arguing for global warming while you freeze to death.

This is what they think in Australia where it is summer

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,24934655-5017272,00.html

This is what they are saying in north america

http://www.mlive.com/opinion/flint/index.ssf/2009/01/its_time_to_pray_for_global_wa.html

We are going into an ice age.


You will never admit that you have been taken for a sucker. You refuse to admit that the Earth has warmed and cooled for billions of years and that Mars is warming now.

Actually talking about Mars, you never mention the fact that the atmosphere there is 95% carbon dioxide. Funny enough the place is freezing. You though are worried about a few parts per million.

Get a grip

http://europe.theoildrum.com/node/3546

Great thread from the oil drum. We're only in the ha'penny place.

Youngdan.....yes, it's cold!!

We are running out of fossil fuel and we have to ration it. This is the truth behind carbon taxes, not so much global warming, whether you believe in it or not.

And I think we'd all better pray you're wrong, because an oil/coal/gas free future with cooling would be a nightmare from Hell

Get behind that green energy now......oh, and would you not, as a Republican, like to be somewhat more free of the Middle East?? The US could easily do well on the oil produced by the US and Canada, if people drove much more efficient vehicles....

Ibis will not like you saying the carbon taxes are really to reduce useage. He likes to say they are not a fine and revenue neutral. Meanwhile the Poles have 50 million Irish euros and are bursting their wholes laughing

Yes Youngdan, I agree. But even for the greenies, it is obvious CO2 taxes are to reduce usage, I would have thought. That's the whole point, innit????

On the plus side, we've given up buying cars as a nation and the few we are buying are the ultra-low fuel usage variety. You can get a 2nd hand suv for nothing in Dublin right now. I doubt the Poles will be getting their carbon taxes next year; a 5% contraction is a lot.
Also, when we moved into our square in our 1980s build housing estate last year, none of the houses were double glazed. Now, 4 of us have bitten the bullet and done it, along with the insulation. The BER ratings on houses will now make the SUV type, 5bed, single glazing house very hard to sell. Even harder than every other type of house ;-)

Our house is a lot warmer and the gas bills a lot lower. Damn, given the cold this winter, I'm glad we organized that!!!

Energy efficiency can help with cold, too!!

cactus flower wrote:

ibis wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

Ibis - I would be really interested to see a 10,000 year ( or longer ) graph, if you have one that you think is reliable.

I thought I had already put one up - I'll have a look.

cactus flower wrote:

What do you think caused the flattening off from 1945-1980?

Well, some of it was the devastation of European industry by the war, which took much of the 50's to be reversed (and then time for the greenhouse effect to kick back in), but also the cooling effect of sulphate air pollution. Do you remember the "acid rain" debates in the 1970's? Opposed in much the same way by the youngdan's of the time:

Quote :

Industrial emissions have been blamed as the major cause of acid rain. Because the chemical reactions involved in the production of acid rain in the atmosphere are complex and as yet little understood, industries have tended to challenge such assessments and to stress the need for further studies; and because of the cost of pollution reduction, governments have tended to support this attitude.

As a result, heavy reductions in sulphate emissions were made - in the US by a market mechanism similar to Kyoto (and decried in much the same terms by Greens on one side and youngdans on the other as either 'pandering to the market' or 'a scam' respectively).

The war period was surely one of intensified industrial production and use of oil and coal? Massive ship building, arms, tanks, rail etc. There was a bit of a flat period perhaps in the 1950s with change over to war to commodity production, but by the 60s things were surely booming? It seems to be a sudden drop off, if it was related to human activity. Unless it related more to the depression before the war? a world industrial production chart might help. What about population levels...

Germany was bombed flat.

cactus flower wrote:

I've posted an oil graph just below here - it doesn't show the same flattening off at all, either at the same time, or before.

It's a production graph, though, and doesn't cover what was largely coal-powered industry.

THis is only a production graph too:

None of these graphs show timber consumption. Surely a lot of people depended on timber for domestic cooking and heating and also to some extent for stoking boilers? Perhaps there was timber depletion during the war and shortage after, or switch from one fuel type to another.

expat girl wrote:

Yes Youngdan, I agree. But even for the greenies, it is obvious CO2 taxes are to reduce usage, I would have thought. That's the whole point, innit????

On the plus side, we've given up buying cars as a nation and the few we are buying are the ultra-low fuel usage variety. You can get a 2nd hand suv for nothing in Dublin right now. I doubt the Poles will be getting their carbon taxes next year; a 5% contraction is a lot.
Also, when we moved into our square in our 1980s build housing estate last year, none of the houses were double glazed. Now, 4 of us have bitten the bullet and done it, along with the insulation. The BER ratings on houses will now make the SUV type, 5bed, single glazing house very hard to sell. Even harder than every other type of house ;-)

Our house is a lot warmer and the gas bills a lot lower. Damn, given the cold this winter, I'm glad we organized that!!!

Energy efficiency can help with cold, too!!

Us too. In the last six months, in preparation for the tough times ahead we put sheeps wool in the attic, did some underfloor insulation, draught proofing around the doors and windows and put a wood burning stove into the open fire place. Also 2 solar panels for hot water - youngdan - once you have your solar panels in they can't tax you or charge you for the energy you use to produce hot water - solar is tax free

None of these damn graphs is over a long enough time period, apart from perhaps the last one.

Clearly there's a correlation between our economies' emissions and the rate of change of the planet's temperature. I'll try and come back with an ice core graph over thousands of years.


As regards some of the solutions out there. A start is more 'green collar' jobs not just individuals improving their homes. We need at least a home improvement scheme like Germany's.

As regards the CDM and market mechanisms. A survey by the NGO International Rivers found that 76 per cent of projects were already completed by the time they were approved as eligible to sell credits – despite the CDM claiming to fund only projects that are 'additional'(1)
An interesting book on the subject is "Climate Change, Carbon Trading and Civil Society" which focuses on South Africa. South Africa pollutes at a rate twenty times higher than even the United States! *

Given the weight of the evidence available now, the supporters of carbon trading are unfortunately in a similar mindset of denial as the youndans of this world.

Then again, both camps (right libertarians and business-as-usual neoliberals) are very much market adherents, so in some cases it's not very surprising as self interest comes into play as well as ideology.


See,

(1)
“Rip-offsets: the failure of the Kyoto Protocol´s Clean Development Mechanism”
http://internationalrivers.org/files/CDM_factsheet_low-rez.pdf

* see below.

http://www.carbontradewatch.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=236&Itemid=36


also my post on The Weather Thread

https://machinenation.forumakers.com/the-natural-world-the-environment-f55/the-weather-thread-t200-1000.htm#60090