Obama and his Homies - Cuba

Accrding to Al Jazeera, Obama is offering to Raul Castro the same deal he offered Ahmadinejad: talks without pre-condition.
Obama calls for Cuba diplomacy

This is somehow supposed to help his chances in Florida, which is inundated with Castro wellwishers don't you know. McCain has been criticising the deal, while Obama counters with his assertion that McCain's policy won't involve CHANGE, an unacceptable omission.

I can't see this helping him in Florida but it might help with the rest of the Latin vote. Cuba is suuopsed to be admired throughout much of Latin America, not so much for their politics but for sticking it to the Gringoes.

At any rate, this move reflects (and I think is rooted) in his wider poicy of engaging with old US enemies such as the Iranians. It will be a soft-power approach welcomed by Europe.

but did you see tha piece on skynews where mccain said he would talk to hamas cos they were in government and he couldn't avoid it.

This is another old saw that is pulled out every election to great effect. By now even the Cubans in Florida realise that Castro could have been gone 40 years ago if the US wanted it. Clinton saved him when he had the chance. The Cubans know what they are missing and are longing for freedom but they don't count. We are told about the crafty ways the CIA tried to kill him with exploding cigars and then we turn on the TV to see him smoking in NYC where it is supposed to be against the law to smoke. Who actually believes this rubbish any more. Definately not the Cubans who get eaten by sharks trying to escape. The only one that I know who believes this is the half wit over yonder that went to Cuba on vacation.

believe what?

lostexpectation wrote:

believe what?

In change and hope.

Who believes that the US could not have got rid of Castro anytime they wanted. They could have just arrested him in NYC.

when was he in nyc? oh at the un, well that would be bad form wouldn't it

What are you on today Lostexpectations. Was he in NYC or was he not.

Well hold on, arrest him for what? They could have arrested Ahmadinejad too. And they can't arrest him in the UN as it''s international territory. The US has a bad enough record of hosting the UN as it is without arresting leaders too.

Killing someone and arresting him are two very different things, I think they should have 'accidentally' killed Saddam when they found him. He was always going to die but at least that way they wouldn't have tarnished the courts.

What is this, they can kill him but they can not arrest him. What has the UN to do with anything unless they built an airport on the roof since I was down there last.

The anomaly I can never get my head around in relation to Cuba is that there is a massive US base and prison camp there at Guantanamo Bay.

LINK

youngdan wrote:

What is this, they can kill him but they can not arrest him. What has the UN to do with anything unless they built an airport on the roof since I was down there last.

They hardly thought they could legally kill him did they? An arrest would have to be legal though. As part of hosting the UN, the US has a duty not to interfere with people travelling to New York to do business there. Had they arrested him, legally or not, it would have raised an outcry.

An outcry. Are you serious. Except for the half wit on P.ie who would be crying out. Was there an outcry when they arrested Noriega. He is in solitary since. When Pinochet was arrested I am sure you were elated.
Clearly Castro had no fear of being arrested or else he would not have left his island paradise.

youngdan wrote:

An outcry. Are you serious. Except for the half wit on P.ie who would be crying out. Was there an outcry when they arrested Noriega. He is in solitary since. When Pinochet was arrested I am sure you were elated.
Clearly Castro had no fear of being arrested or else he would not have left his island paradise.

Neither men were in power and neither were on visits to the UN wnen they were arrested.

If the Americans really loved him then, what was the story with all the embargoes and the invasion?

Why do you say he was not in power when thousands were killed in the effort to dislodge him. The Americans did not love him when they invaded to get him.
Pinochet was arrested on a Spanish warrant.
Are you one of those that would say that Hitler should not have been arrested had the oppurtunity presented itself. That is strange thinking.

Noriega had been voted out by his people and only held authority with the army. Commanding an army does not make one a head of state, especially when the army's just been defeated and you're seeking sanctuary in an embassy. Pinochet was arrested on a Spanish warrant, how very perceptive of you. He was not a head of state (though he did claim immunity as a former head of state), nor was he on UN business as I have pointed out. And it was a Chilean judge who prosecuted him.

As for Hitler, he wasn't arrested despite numerous visits to hostile countries. Are we to assume that there was some cosy clandestine relationship here too?

And are you going to explain why the Americans embargoed and invaded Cuba when they really loved Castro?

Hopefully we have learned from the hitler example and we can save 100 million next time. I have no issue with Pinochet being arrested.
To say that Noriega was not in control is a flight of fancy. It needed an invasion to get him. He called the shots.
Castro could have been overthrown at any time. You can wring your hands and bemoan economic embaroes all you like but I have unsettling news for you. Castro could not give a bollix because he is worth 1 billion dollars. Clinton sent his favourite bulldyke to give him a huge propaganda coup and demoralise the Cuban people when stirrings of freedom were taking hold. I believe actions speak louder than words.

The Lonely Planet gives a good short history of US/Cuban relations. Here is an extract

Quote :

José Martí had long warned of US interest in Cuba, and in 1898 he was proved right. After years of reading lurid (and often inaccurate) tabloid tales about Cuba's Second War for Independence, the American public was fascinated with the island. Although everything was quiet, newspaper magnate William Randolph Hearst told his illustrator not to come home just yet: 'You furnish the pictures and I'll furnish the war.' In February 1898 the US warship Maine , anchored outside Havana harbour, exploded mysteriously. All but two of its officers were off the ship at the time. The Spanish-American war had begun.

Spain, weakened by conflict elsewhere, limped to battle, trying to preserve some dignity in the Caribbean. They nearly beat future US president Teddy Roosevelt and his Rough Riders (though they'd had to leave their horses on the mainland) in the Battle of San Juan Hill. The USA's vastly superior forces eventually prevailed, however, and on December 12, 1898, a peace treaty ending the war was signed. The Cubans, including General Calixto García, whose largely black army had inflicted dozens of defeats on the Spanish, were not invited.

Modern History
The USA, hobbled by a law requiring its own government to respect Cuban self-determination, could not annex Cuba outright, as it did Puerto Rico, Guam and the Philippines. Instead, they installed a governor, General John Brooke, and began a series of public works projects, building schools and improving public health, that further tied Cuba to the USA. US leaders did retain the legal right to intervene militarily in Cuba's domestic affairs: in 1903, the USA built a naval base at Guantánamo Bay that is still in operation - notoriously so - today.

By the 1920s US companies owned two-thirds of Cuba's farmland, imposing tariffs that crippled Cuba's own manufacturing industries. Discrimination against blacks was institutionalised. Tourism based on drinking, gambling and prostitution flourished. The hardships of the Great Depression led to civil unrest, which was violently quelled by President Gerado Machado y Morales. In 1933 Morales was overthrown in a coup, and army sergeant Fulgencio Batista seized power. Over the next 20 years Cuba crumbled, and its assets were increasingly placed into foreign hands. On January 1, 1959, Batista's dictatorship was overthrown after a three-year guerilla campaign led by young lawyer Fidel Castro, flanked by military leaders 'Che' Guevara and Camilo Cienfuegos. Batista fled Cuba for the Dominican Republic, taking with him US$40 million of government funds.

Castro was named prime minister and began reforming the nation's economy, cutting rents and nationalising landholdings larger than 400 hectares. Relations with the USA, already shaky, deteriorated when he nationalised US-owned petroleum refineries that had refused to process Russian oil. The Americans retaliated by cutting Cuban sugar imports, thus crippling the Cuban economy, and the CIA began plotting devious ways to overthrow the revolutionary government. Desperate for cash, Castro turned to the Soviet Union, which promptly paid top dollar for Cuba's sugar surplus.

In 1961, 1400 CIA-trained Cuban expats, mainly upper-middle-class Batista supporters who had fled to Miami after the revolution, attacked the island at the Bay of Pigs. They were promptly captured and ransomed back to the US for medical supplies. The following week, Castro announced the 'socialist nature' of the revolutionary government, something he'd always denied. The Soviet Union, always eager to help a struggling socialist nation (particularly one so strategically located) sent much-needed food, technical support and, of course, nuclear weapons. The October 1962 Cuban Missile Crisis is said to be the closest the world has ever come to nuclear conflict.

The missiles were shipped back to the USSR, and the USA, already refusing to import Cuban goods, declared a full embargo. Castro and his Minister of Economics, Che Guevara, began actively supporting guerilla groups in South America and Africa, sending troops and advisers to assist socialist insurgencies in Zaire, Angola, Mozambique, Bolivia (where Guevara was killed) and Ethiopia. The US response was to support dictators in many of those countries. By the 1970s, Cuba had limited itself to sending doctors and technicians abroad; there were problems enough at home. Despite massive Soviet aid, the Cuban command economy was in ruins, and the country's plight worsened in 1989 when Eastern Europe collapsed and Russia withdrew its aid.

In December 1991, the Cuban Constitution was amended to remove all references to Marxism-Leninism, and economic reforms began. In 1993, laws passed allowing Cubans to own and use US dollars, be self-employed and open farmers' markets. Taxes on dollar incomes and profits were levied in 1994, and in September 1996 foreign companies were allowed to wholly own and operate businesses and purchase real estate. These measures gradually brought the economy out of its post-Soviet tailspin. The US responded by stiffening its embargo with the Helms-Burton Act, ironically solidifying Castro's position as defender of Cuba against the 'evil' empire.

The piece goes on to criticise Cuba's Human Rights record, and to describe how Bush has introduced more legislation preventing family visits etc. intended to bring down the Cuban government. It also describes how Castro has aligned itself with Chavez and Morales as part of the new left 'southern hemisphere'.

Strong anti - American allies, compromise, a strongly independent spirit born out of a long struggle for independence and International law seem to have enabled
Cuba to hold on.

youngdan wrote:

Hopefully we have learned from the hitler example and we can save 100 million next time. I have no issue with Pinochet being arrested.
To say that Noriega was not in control is a flight of fancy. It needed an invasion to get him. He called the shots.
Castro could have been overthrown at any time. You can wring your hands and bemoan economic embaroes all you like but I have unsettling news for you. Castro could not give a bollix because he is worth 1 billion dollars. Clinton sent his favourite bulldyke to give him a huge propaganda coup and demoralise the Cuban people when stirrings of freedom were taking hold. I believe actions speak louder than words.

He was in control of an army, not a country. Certainly not in a manner that anyone in the wider world took notice of.

You still haven't explained why the US carried on its little charade with Castro.

Give it a break 905. The person who controls the army in these places is The Man.
I believe what I see not what I am told. The US have a base down there and if they moved against Castro it would be like the human rush we saw when the East Germans got the chance to bolt. They are risking life on makeshift rafts to flee. The situation in Cuba is what is being planned for all the plebs and you will see it as the economic situation speeds up on the downside.
The woman died and was eaten by the sharks getting out of Cuba and the Bulldyke sent the cops down to send the kid back. C:\Documents and Settings\Home\My Documents

youngdan wrote:

Give it a break 905. The person who controls the army in these places is The Man.

So not a head of state then. Or would you rank Gerry Adams a national leader?

youngdan wrote:

I believe what I see not what I am told. The US have a base down there and if they moved against Castro it would be like the human rush we saw when the East Germans got the chance to bolt. They are risking life on makeshift rafts to flee. The situation in Cuba is what is being planned for all the plebs and you will see it as the economic situation speeds up on the downside.
The woman died and was eaten by the sharks getting out of Cuba and the Bulldyke sent the cops down to send the kid back. C:\Documents and Settings\Home\My Documents

What has any of that to do with assasination attempts or arrests? Are you saying that America left Castro alone because they were afraid of an influx of immigrants once the great man fell? It didn't stop the interfering in every other country in the region.

And who's this bulldyke character you mention?

Does Adams command the Irish Army now. Fortunately the Irish Army is under civilian control and we are talking about Panama.
If Cuba became free why would people leave. Their situation could only improve.
The bulldyke is Janet Reno who sent tanks against the Davidians and the swat teams for Ilian.

youngdan wrote:

Does Adams command the Irish Army now. Fortunately the Irish Army is under civilian control and we are talking about Panama.
If Cuba became free why would people leave. Their situation could only improve.
The bulldyke is Janet Reno who sent tanks against the Davidians and the swat teams for Ilian.

Gerry Adams had an army in his time but that didn'y make him the man by any stretch. I don't understand what you mean by freedom, who's suggesting that the Cubans are free?

Cuba is not free, that is why they are leaving. If Cuba became free why would they leave, is what I said. You can believe Noriega was not in control all you like but you are the only one believing it.

I don't know why you're talking about Cuba being free. Noriega was in control, of an army. He was not an internationally recognised head of state. He was not a recognised head of state in Panama.