ibis wrote:

Nice puppy, shame about the irony of the slogan!

Indeed. Declan Ganley actually likes puppies, medium rare I believe.

Miaow.

Does he like cats too?

Kate P wrote:

Miaow.

Does he like cats too?

No, not the ones on the yes side anyway. 

Puppies working for Rivada testing new interoperable system ?

God, that word "interoperable"...

*twitch*

cookiemonster wrote:

ibis wrote:

Nice puppy, shame about the irony of the slogan!

Indeed. Declan Ganley actually likes puppies, medium rare I believe.

Right...right...that's it....I'm going to vote Yes...bet you're sorry now, eh?

But do puppies like Declan ? Youtube video of US soldiers throwing puppy over cliff del. cf

Warning: Don't watch if you don't want to see puppy thrown over cliff. cf.

cactus flower wrote:

US soldiers throw puppy over cliff video del. cf.

But do puppies like Declan ?

OH MY GOD! That's horific. Evil bastards.

This is a very upsetting thread. Melikes it not.

It is indeed not a nice thing.

Gilmore -v- Ganley on tonight's VB show.
As wary as I am of Rivada and the publicity their cause is getting, I am looking forward to seeing EG landing a few blows.

cactus flower wrote:

lostexpectation wrote:

don't know why the include the libertas funding in with the people movement and coir.

Its a list of all the groups campaigning for a No vote. Its called Part II so perhaps Part I covered the YES groups.

but it gives the impression the no side have lots of money, but they don't their the no side and then there's rivida

lostexpectation wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

lostexpectation wrote:

don't know why the include the libertas funding in with the people movement and coir.

Its a list of all the groups campaigning for a No vote. Its called Part II so perhaps Part I covered the YES groups.

but it gives the impression the no side have lots of money, but they don't their the no side and then there's rivida

To be fair, though, there's groups on the Yes side with no money.

ibis wrote:

To be fair, though, there's groups on the Yes side with no money.

The parties wouldn't have too much cash either. Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael spent an awful lot of money just last year on the General Election. I'd imagine they're still in a bit of debt after that out-lay.

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

ibis wrote:

To be fair, though, there's groups on the Yes side with no money.

The parties wouldn't have too much cash either. Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael spent an awful lot of money just last year on the General Election. I'd imagine they're still in a bit of debt after that out-lay.

Plus there's next year's elections. However, I was thinking more of groups like the Alliance for Europe et al. I'm not aware that they're on bigger budgets than the No players.

ibis wrote:

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

ibis wrote:

To be fair, though, there's groups on the Yes side with no money.

The parties wouldn't have too much cash either. Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael spent an awful lot of money just last year on the General Election. I'd imagine they're still in a bit of debt after that out-lay.

Plus there's next year's elections. However, I was thinking more of groups like the Alliance for Europe et al. I'm not aware that they're on bigger budgets than the No players.

Exactly ibis, they'd be looking to run this campaign on a shoe-string with all the expense of next year's elections as well. Perhaps that's why the Galway Tent was abandoned, with all the money FF need for electioneering, they'll be shortly announcing a Galway Marquee!

Alliance For Europe would be on similar-to-lower funds as Libertas, VoteNo.ie, People's Movement etc. The Worker's Party are on traditionally-low budgets as well, by the looks of the very cheaply-produced anti-Lisbon leaflet put through my door the other week. I read it with gloves to avoid developing acute Marxitis.

so the people movement campaign if €20,000 what will ff budget be?

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

I read it with gloves to avoid developing acute Marxitis.

Eeeeeew! That's so much worse than cooties.

people having trouble with p.ie today i am.

im so sick of libertas getting in the way of real no campaigners

The whole right wing end of the No campaign is pretty horrific looking to me - was looking at racist videos from I think COIR on youtube, but also other racists jumping on the bandwagon. Libertas is part of a burgeoning right wing scene that will inevitably grow with inflation and people losing their livelihoods. I would love to hear more from the rest of the No campaign. They don't seem to use the boards much, at least not P.ie or here. I posted on P.ie about why they were not pushing harder - they just complained about the capitalist media, but there is no reason why they couldn't be using the fora and videos and so on the same way the right does.
Libertas are a wider issue that Lisbon. When a group is cagy and obscure about who they are and what they stand for, they need to be looked at hard. Do you know any Italian? I posted an Italian link on the Libertas a Personal Response thread and had a go with babelfish but don't understand all of it.

The media realise that Libertas are sexy and will draw people's attention, much more than a few hippies with some fliers will and so they've created a monster. The not so biased (yes IT I'm looking at you) have seen Libertas being mentoned again and again and think, oh they're popular and start using them as poster boys for the No Campaign too. The IT see that they can sell more papers with salacious exposé here and there - which are nothing more then rumour and speculation at best. If Libertas were not around COIR would be the main focus of the Yes side's vitriol and to be honest I can't see why they are not (other than points made above) as whatever about Libertas's past COIR have a past mired in conflict and mystery. 
As for the rest of the no camp, they're busy out doing that they are supposed to do rather than pissing about on the internet (which you'll notice so are Libertas and COIR - It's mostly bitter yes posters who are bitching away on p.ie most of the time) and they're getting the work done.
I've been to countless meetings and forums about the Treaty and each and every time I am always impressed at the performances of PBP (Richard Boyd Barret?) and some of the other mild socialist type groups (and I've had some smashing conversations with them even though we're only alligned because we both oppose the treaty, but we do so for very different reasons) where as the contrast with any (and they ain't been many) yes siders I've been canvassed by who have handed me a leaflet and scurried away. I'be said countless times that I have been searching for a reason to vote yes to this treaty because it seems so very off for me to be in opposition on this, I am vehemently pro-EU and have votes yes to every treaty I've had a vote in, to be alligned with Lefties and SF is, I find, very odd, but a reason to vote yes which counters the reasons to vote know has yet to be either found by me or presented to me. 

cookiemonster wrote:

The media realise that Libertas are sexy and will draw people's attention, much more than a few hippies with some fliers will and so they've created a monster. The not so biased (yes IT I'm looking at you) have seen Libertas being mentoned again and again and think, oh they're popular and start using them as poster boys for the No Campaign too.

The Irish Times has been very biased this referendum campaign. I think there was only one week of a pretence of objectivity and balance before the IT became a sounding board for the Yes campaign. You have Gillespie, FitzGerald, Bruton and the rest given full-page articles pushing the Treaty on a daily basis while people like Ray Kinsella are pushed to the side-lines.

Ray Kinsella, Professor of Banking and Financial Services at UCD, warns that our corporation tax is under threat.

How come this has not received more attention in "the paper of record"?

Martyn Deary's cartoon about No vote literature was disgraceful as well, there's just as much bile, scare-mongering and distraction from the central issue on the Yes side as well.

In terms of campaign, what mainly differentiates the Yes and No sides is that very few Yes campaigners have read the Treaty or even thought about it in any depth. 'No' campaigners have carefully trawled it for anything they believe is damaging, or that can be made to appear damaging.

The 'Yes' campaign has been reactive rather than pro-active so the attention they have given the Treaty is mainly in terms of refuting some of the rubbish said by some No campaigners - keepin the focus on No. The rest of the Campaign is simply saying your banjaxed if you vote No. It is lazy, and it doesn't deserve to win.

I disagree about the boards. There is plenty of Libertas presence on them as well you know. COIR are on the crazier parts of the internet and are extremely active.

Concern about Libertas on blogs and boards has been picked up by the Press. COIR is certainly getting an easy ride and the novelty factor of Ganley may well have affected that. It is the left wing No people who haven't been heard, and probably find it hardest to get heard. I do agree is that time on the door step is what counts most, but the boards are free give some visibility to any point of view.

There is plenty that has been said about Declan Ganley and Libertas is not rumour and speculation but factual. If there is rumour, the reason for that is the failure of either party to present themselves, their origin and history, in an open, acurate and informative way. The rumour was the first stage. The facts have followed and will continue to follow.

I'll be voting no primarily as a protest vote, as I think that Lisbon is much less significant a change than Nice and Maastricht. There isn't any other opportunity in the electoral system to express dissatisfaction with the lack of democracy in the EU system. The M.E.P.s are all on the gravy train and are relatively powerless anyway.

cactus flower wrote:

I'll be voting no primarily as a protest vote, as I think that Lisbon
is much less significant a change than Nice and Maastricht. There isn't
any other opportunity in the electoral system to express
dissatisfaction with the lack of democracy in the EU system. The
M.E.P.s are all on the gravy train and are relatively powerless anyway.

I prefer a more democratic EU, the Treaty gives me a more democratic EU (in particular it vastly increases the power of the Parliament) and you're voting against the Treaty to protest the lack of democracy in the EU.

J.H.F.C. Thank you very much.