It was a great meeting.

I wouldn't have believed it if I hadn't seen it with my own eyes but there was actually a group of people there who wanted to get behind Libertas.

And before the conspiracy theorists jump in, they weren't plants!

Naoise gave an excellent presentation - I haven't heard him in a while but he's gotten better and better. It was measured, well referenced and intelligent. Whether you're on the yes or the No side, it would be worth catching up with the Roadshow next time around.

The discussion from the floor was very negative - in the sense that all the speakers were on the No side, but very positive because all of the posters had questions - not party political broadcasts. That led to a great debate of issues.

Then individuals started telling Libertas how to ensure a no vote. By the end there were speakers trying to organise a Tallaght Says No to Lisbon campaign - completely organically. Really, you couldn't credit it if you weren't there. It was quite extraordinary.

Did I agree with everything they said? No.

But was I convinced of the sincerity of the three men at the top of the room, yes; though they weren't equally effective and Naoise Nunn did the majority of the talking. There were lots of opportunities where they could have strung a line (eg, ECJ and abortion - because it was specifically asked) but they didn't.

I went feeling curious and sceptical in the extreme, considering myself a No voter who could not be aligned with Libertas and ended up finding myself nodding in agreement. There was no hysteria, none of the patronising tone that characterises the leaflet. Indeed, in response to some of the questions, they could have justified jumping on a bandwagon - but they didn't.

Has anyone else been to a Libertas meeting? They were on all this week. It's fair to say that the leaflet and the presentation I heard this evening couldn't have been more different.

I still am not happy that I understand where Libertas has come from, or is going, and it's clear that Dave and John McGuirk are learning as they go and sometimes messing up royally BUT, if they gave presentations like tonight's more often, they might well change the minds of the undecided and encourage them to vote No.

I haven't had a Road to Damascus moment but, it gave me food for thought, which is a sept in the right drirection.

What did the speakers say Kate P?

cactus flower wrote:

Well, the cat is out of the bag in P.ie.

L I N K with P.ie thread

L I N K with Creigthon FG website

L I N K Original Indy Article

I think my problem here is that whether Naoise, Dave, John etc are personally articulate, passionate, sincere, and/or charming is not actually at issue.

If someone wanted to run a campaign they could hardly do without some local political enthusiasts to front it - and the Freedom Institute boys are just made for the part.

Meh. Maybe I'm getting too paranoid. Either way, I don't prefer Libertas' view of Europe over the one on offer any more than I preferred the FI/PD view of Ireland over the others on offer. Too neo-con.

So where do they come from Kate? Tell us, nothing you've written shows me your a sceptic, Kate.

I don't even know why I find this weird, but I find it slightly odd that the person who puts out the notices for Libertas events is Declan Ganley's Executive Assistant at Rivada.

ibis wrote:

I don't even know why I find this weird, but I find it slightly odd that the person who puts out the notices for Libertas events is Declan Ganley's Executive Assistant at Rivada.

Is Ganley in the Rich List?

ibis wrote:

I don't even know why I find this weird, but I find it slightly odd that the person who puts out the notices for Libertas events is Declan Ganley's Executive Assistant at Rivada.

From each according to his ability ..

Auditor #9 wrote:

ibis wrote:

I don't even know why I find this weird, but I find it slightly odd that the person who puts out the notices for Libertas events is Declan Ganley's Executive Assistant at Rivada.

From each according to his ability ..

SIPO!

Celbridger on p.ie noticed that Libertas specifically mentioned abortion in their PR for a roadshow meeting in Athlone, as reported in the Athlone Voice of two weeks ago.

Don't forget to look carefully to your left and right before you cross the road!

Wonder if they mentioned it in the Tallaght flyer? Kate P was there.

Now we are at the end of the campaign, it is occurring to me that the opportunity that Ganley has seized is the Referendum Commission requirement for equal prominence of the Yes and No campaigns. This, given the small scale and lack of cohesion of other No campaigners, has given him a turbo charged boost into the public eye.

This guaranteed him enormous bang for his bucks in a way that would not be the case in any other type of electoral venture. Let it be said that he is one sharp operator with an eye for the main chance.

It is clearly the case that Libertas/Rivada took advantage of that provision. RTE could not say that they had looked but not got anybody to speak on issues because Libertas always had somebody available. Even if Libertas were disseminating confusion and chaff on any given topic they had to be let on air because they were there. There was a guy from Libertas called Naoise on Newstalk last night saying that he rang up RTE at times demanding to be given equal time. No-one else had the organisation to do it, but I think RTE could have tried harder as they obviously did for the final Q&A.

I think this has shown a flaw in our law in that the current law allows an outside force to come into our country and demand equal air-time on the national broadcaster. That is a gaping loophole inviting in the propaganda machines of vested interests. I cannot prove that Libertas/Rivada were such an outside force, but if I were to imagine how such an outside force would manifest itself then it would be exacly like Libertas/Rivada.

Zhou_Enlai wrote:

It is clearly the case that Libertas/Rivada took advantage of that provision. RTE could not say that they had looked but not got anybody to speak on issues because Libertas always had somebody available. Even if Libertas were disseminating confusion and chaff on any given topic they had to be let on air because they were there. There was a guy from Libertas called Naoise on Newstalk last night saying that he rang up RTE at times demanding to be given equal time. No-one else had the organisation to do it, but I think RTE could have tried harder as they obviously did for the final Q&A.

I think this has shown a flaw in our law in that the current law allows an outside force to come into our country and demand equal air-time on the national broadcaster. That is a gaping loophole inviting in the propaganda machines of vested interests. I cannot prove that Libertas/Rivada were such an outside force, but if I were to imagine how such an outside force would manifest itself then it would be exacly like Libertas/Rivada.

The 'progressive' Noes were very slow to spot the situation imho. SF as a Party had an advantage and did the best of them, given Party experience and discipline. But the other groups never really emerged as entities.

There was every opportunity for them to have a rota of available persons and to provide their phone numbers to News Editors. News Editors are pressurised and will clutch at straws to fill time. I posted on P.ie to that effect and the reply was that there was a conspiracy to keep the left off the air. There may well be, but in the case of this campaign there was an obligation for balance that they could have exploited.

Of course the fact that the Treaty was Libertas's entire agenda helped them as well.

You mean our secret agenda wasn't mentioned at all?

Well you're a Roadie, cm. Tell us how it's been going.

Kate P wrote:

Well you're a Roadie, cm. Tell us how it's been going.

It's been FANTASTIC. It's been UNBELIEVABLE. It's been AMAZING.

I had to leave today and go back to work, I was nearly upset not to be out with the guys and I was like a lost puppy all day. I'm wrecked tired and low on energy and I'd only been out on the streets for 3 days (there have been others who have been doing it for a week or more).
But the people I've met, both inside Libertas and out on the streets have really changed my attitudes on so many things.

I can't describe it with any real degree of accuracy but suffice to day fantastic, unbelievable and amazing don't even come close. 

I am dreading tomorrow! I know there are many on the yes side who are feeling exactly like I am right now and I wish them the best of luck too.

cookiemonster wrote:

You mean our secret agenda wasn't mentioned at all?

Well, of course it was cookiemonster, but only in passing. I suppose once the voting is over that all the Yes Libertas people like Gurdjieff can get out of their coffins and emerge into the twilight zone of the Libertas pan european party.

What now for Libertas, cookie? Will it be organising itself as a political party and running in the local and European elections? Is there any sense of anything yet-to-come?

Kate P wrote:

What now for Libertas, cookie? Will it be organising itself as a political party and running in the local and European elections? Is there any sense of anything yet-to-come?

I can't even think past tomorrow evening, Kate. It's never been mentioned.

cookiemonster wrote:

Kate P wrote:

What now for Libertas, cookie? Will it be organising itself as a political party and running in the local and European elections? Is there any sense of anything yet-to-come?

I can't even think past tomorrow evening, Kate. It's never been mentioned.

If Libertas is identified as the key agent in a rejection of the Treaty, then they could use that as a spring-board into becoming a full political party.

Did I swing you, AT?

I can't see how Libertas could be mentioned as a key entity in shaping the result when turnout is so low that the main factor in a No win (should it happen) will almost certainly be the fact that the Yes voters didn't turn out in great numbers.

The other issue is whether the ideas that Libertas were floating can be readily identified with Libertas and I don't think they can. Initially I would have considered Libertas to have a mostly business bias but that has altered so profoundly as to make them a peculiar breed of catch-all-policies No organisation.

Kate P wrote:

I can't see how Libertas could be mentioned as a key entity in shaping the result when turnout is so low that the main factor in a No win (should it happen) will almost certainly be the fact that the Yes voters didn't turn out in great numbers.

The other issue is whether the ideas that Libertas were floating can be readily identified with Libertas and I don't think they can. Initially I would have considered Libertas to have a mostly business bias but that has altered so profoundly as to make them a peculiar breed of catch-all-policies No organisation.

Hmm. There's also the issue that in the event of a No some of what they said will come back to bite them - the posters this morning saying "Vote No to Keep Our Commissioner", for example.

It wasn't very Nice of them to put up those posters if they did.