I'll have McGuirk please with My Rashers and Egg

http://www.rte.ie/radio1
/

John McGuirk was just eaten for breakfast by Dick Roche on Morning Ireland (sorry, but I posted this on P.ie too). The question for the other No campaigns must be why they are not getting a hearing on the No issue while Libertas, a tiny and non representative body with no track record, are getting called in each time RTE needs a No head.

Have they all gone to sleep or been persuaded to vote Yes? Or were they just not asked?

It'll be up later on Morning Ireland (I'll try to record it and put it here with flash :? )

There are problems with the CAP but the CAP could give Libertas their first big public headache with the Declan Ganley Iraq/WMD comment/clanger underlined by Dick Roche this morning.

My sentiments exactly (and elsewhere) about the coverage Libertas are getting... How are you doing it lads? Lobbying RTE more vehemently than the others?

SPNs Trojan Horse conspiracy theory (also discussed on Cedar Lounge? ) starts to niggle as a mental attention-grabber...

Not only the CAP but also taxation. McGuirk had to back track and just sounded foolish.

But he had been given a solo run/free ride earlier on the programme before Dick Roche arrived.

I suppose RTE consider Libertas a safer option than SF? Is there no-one else campaigning against the Treaty?
What about our Kate P?

Naoise from Libertas and Dick Roche on Drivetime now. I suppose old Dick has his knife and fork ready for another tasty morsel...

Auditor #9 wrote:

Naoise from Libertas and Dick Roche on Drivetime now. I suppose old Dick has his knife and fork ready for another tasty morsel...

Can't turn on - keep us posted !

I would say Naoise might be more ready for him.

If that's how you spell it. Yeah Naoise was good - they discussed the corpo tax and Naoise reckoned there was a case where the European Court of Justice might be able to rule against the low tax position Ireland takes... Dick reckoned no but left it mighty unclear at the end . Naoise sounded very grave indeed.

The QMV sounded fair enough - Germany gets 16% of overall vote up from 8% reflecting the population there - this is in relation to passing European legislation. My jesus it's complicated - how the hell is the electorate supposed to make an informed decision on this on the back of a booklet coming through the letterbox in a few days and the referendum a few weeks later? De mock racy. There should have been people knocking on our doors two years ago educating people on this. Where are the television debates ? Feck this I'm voting no...

Auditor #9 wrote:

If that's how you spell it. Yeah Naoise was good - they discussed the corpo tax and Naoise reckoned there was a case where the European Court of Justice might be able to rule against the low tax position Ireland takes... Dick reckoned no but left it mighty unclear at the end . Naoise sounded very grave indeed.

The QMV sounded fair enough - Germany gets 16% of overall vote up from 8% reflecting the population there - this is in relation to passing European legislation. My jesus it's complicated - how the hell is the electorate supposed to make an informed decision on this on the back of a booklet coming through the letterbox in a few days and the referendum a few weeks later? De mock racy. There should have been people knocking on our doors two years ago educating people on this. Where are the television debates ? Feck this I'm voting no...

Well, two years ago the Treaty hadn't been written...nor had they switched on CERN.

Well if Europe is such a big project then I don't see why the referendum shouldn't be postponed until a later date until everyone has an opinion on it. Irish Times today has scandalous report on how few know anything about it. It's not General Relativity we're voting on it's a civic system which will work for the people in it.

Auditor #9 wrote:

Well if Europe is such a big project then I don't see why the referendum shouldn't be postponed until a later date until everyone has an opinion on it. Irish Times today has scandalous report on how few know anything about it. It's not General Relativity we're voting on it's a civic system which will work for the people in it.

True, but the majority also don't give much a monkey's about it. Referendums on Europe tend to be decided by the bare majority of the population who get out and vote, and the majority of those vote do so based on a decision taken pretty shortly before polling date.

For all the furore that EU referendums generate, and all the cries that it's a multi-tentacled monster dominating our lives, most people don't have any noticeable dealings with it. It's a largely theoretical construct from the point of view of the average voter, and you have to have actually been moving around Europe 20-30 years ago to have any idea of how much difference it's made.

In fairness, being such a long and complex document, it is probably more suited to a parliamentary style debate and vote. As things stand, most of our elected politicians, who are paid to learn about such issues, are abdicating their responsibility to tease the issues out properly and are leaving it up to the people.

I would not like a situation where sovereignty could be given up other than by referendum. However, plebiscites should be on discrete and understandable issues. The trend towards validating legislation and complex documents by referenda is fundamentally wrong.

The problem with the treaty is that it ignores the irish system. We should be given a clear statement of where sovereignty is being given up. Instead the docuent is drafted in such a way that everything is intermingled in such a way that prevents it being separated out. That is because the rest of Europe does not care about us and our own politicians are not willing to make a point of it.

If a there is a No vote then I think it will because it is not possible to deliver the message of the treaty properly and because too many of our politicians have been too lazy to get a grip on what is in the treaty. Putting such a complex document to a plebiscite is asking for problems.

Zhou_Enlai wrote:

In fairness, being such a long and complex document, it is probably more suited to a parliamentary style debate and vote. As things stand, most of our elected politicians, who are paid to learn about such issues, are abdicating their responsibility to tease the issues out properly and are leaving it up to the people.

I would not like a situation where sovereignty could be given up other than by referendum. However, plebiscites should be on discrete and understandable issues. The trend towards associating legislation and complex documents with treaties is fundamentally wrong.

The problem with the treaty is that it ignores the irish system. We should be given a clear statement of where sovereignty is being given up. Instead the docuent is drafted in such a way that everything is intermingled in such a way that prevents it being separated out. That is because the rest of Europe does not care about us and our own politicians are not willing to make a point of it.

If a there is a No vote then I think it will because it is not possible to deliver the message of the treaty properly and because too many of our politicians have been too lazy to get a grip on what is in the treaty. Putting such a complex document to a plebiscite is asking for problems.

This is one of the reasons I'm particularly in favour of the "self-amending" article. It would mean that future amendments involving sovereignty are put to referendum singly.

Personally, I'd love to have see the AG's advice to the government.

I think we shold all be entitled to see the AG's advice. The truth is the Government have been surreptitiously giving up sovereignty for decades. We have always known that is what it is all about but we have never been open about it. At this stage people seem to have copped that but they are accepting of the fait accompli. What you say about the self amending article is interesting. I expect that ultimately, in future years, FG will suggest that we don't need referendums on the EU and the people, by one last referendum, will authorise the oireachtas to make these decisions.

This has evolved from a thread about Libertas to a much more interesting discussion about Lisbon. Would someone like to split it and Give it a Lisbon pros and cons type title?

Zhou_Enlai wrote:

I think we shold all be entitled to see the AG's advice. The truth is the Government have been surreptitiously giving up sovereignty for decades. We have always known that is what it is all about but we have never been open about it. At this stage people seem to have copped that but they are accepting of the fait accompli. What you say about the self amending article is interesting. I expect that ultimately, in future years, FG will suggest that we don't need referendums on the EU and the people, by one last referendum, will authorise the oireachtas to make these decisions.

I here there are leaflets about, but my front door is quite obscure and I didn't get one. I will search for it on the internet.

Zhou_Enlai wrote:

I think we shold all be entitled to see the AG's advice. The truth is the Government have been surreptitiously giving up sovereignty for decades. We have always known that is what it is all about but we have never been open about it. At this stage people seem to have copped that but they are accepting of the fait accompli. What you say about the self amending article is interesting. I expect that ultimately, in future years, FG will suggest that we don't need referendums on the EU and the people, by one last referendum, will authorise the oireachtas to make these decisions.

I wouldn't agree. Every time we've handed over any sovereignty (and it's not a permanent handover either), we've had a referendum. Unfortunately, referendums are often dominated by entirely irrelevant issues.

ibis wrote:

Zhou_Enlai wrote:

I think we shold all be entitled to see the AG's advice. The truth is the Government have been surreptitiously giving up sovereignty for decades. We have always known that is what it is all about but we have never been open about it. At this stage people seem to have copped that but they are accepting of the fait accompli. What you say about the self amending article is interesting. I expect that ultimately, in future years, FG will suggest that we don't need referendums on the EU and the people, by one last referendum, will authorise the oireachtas to make these decisions.

I wouldn't agree. Every time we've handed over any sovereignty (and it's not a permanent handover either), we've had a referendum. Unfortunately, referendums are often dominated by entirely irrelevant issues.

In what sense not permanent?

cactus flower wrote:

ibis wrote:

Zhou_Enlai wrote:

I think we shold all be entitled to see the AG's advice. The truth is the Government have been surreptitiously giving up sovereignty for decades. We have always known that is what it is all about but we have never been open about it. At this stage people seem to have copped that but they are accepting of the fait accompli. What you say about the self amending article is interesting. I expect that ultimately, in future years, FG will suggest that we don't need referendums on the EU and the people, by one last referendum, will authorise the oireachtas to make these decisions.

I wouldn't agree. Every time we've handed over any sovereignty (and it's not a permanent handover either), we've had a referendum. Unfortunately, referendums are often dominated by entirely irrelevant issues.

In what sense not permanent?

In the sense that it's a reversible handover. All the competences of the EU are granted by the member states, and can be withdrawn by them, although currently there is no formal mechanism for doing so (I think Lisbon actually contains one, but I'd need to check that).

No one has ever left ?...

cactus flower wrote:

No one has ever left ?...

No. Sinister, eh?

Oh, Shut up! (stamps foot )

ibis wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

No one has ever left ?...

No. Sinister, eh?

Greenland left in 1985.
Algeria left in 1962. (Bet no-one knew Algeria was every in the EEC)

Thank you DeGaulle, I had a vague memory of someone having left. It is nice to get some hard facts instead of disinformation and cruel sarcasm

cactus flower wrote:

Thank you DeGaulle, I had a vague memory of someone having left. It is nice to get some hard facts instead of disinformation and cruel sarcasm

Well, quit feeding me straight lines, then.

The Libertas bunch seem quite upset that there's a get-out mechanism being included in the Lisbon treaty.

905 wrote:

The Libertas bunch seem quite upset that there's a get-out mechanism being included in the Lisbon treaty.

More, please, 905?