Leaving Cert English - Thoughts

Kate P wrote:

Quote :

The Sainsburys don't run or own Tetra Pak, they're shareholders in the eponymous supermarket chain. The Rausings control Tetra Pak.

I actually did know that and was in the middle of making a list of people who'd show up - but I couldn't remember if there were actual Sainsburys or if I was imagining them. Hans Rausing and a brother, isn't it? I think they're Swedish. I'll be reminded tomorrow.

For my sins I have a few grinds on a Sunday morning because it's the only time I can be fairly sure I'll be around - sometimes I don't even get the papers until pretty late in the evening and then have to make do with what I can get. Leaving Cert in 6 weeks and no grinds ever again - only long Sunday mornings with the papers. Amen.

But the business, holiday/travel and sports usually go straight into the recycling and I read the Observer Magazine, The Culture, Review and main news sections then. Observer Food comes before everything else. I don't bother much with the ST magazine, though I like the Life in the Day and Best of Times - most of the long articles are a bit surreal - investigative stuff of a rather peculiar nature with some exceptions.

What do you give grinds in Kate P?

LC Hons English

This thread deserved to be split from somewhere else.

Great subject - I had an awful teacher. We wrote notes from the board all day and never spoke. But it wasn't enough to put me off studying it in college.

Others may have more interesting thoughts.

Kate P wrote:

LC Hons English

Same as myself

Nice to meet you, unaligned. I'm out of the loop this year - on career broken for good - but will still be correcting in June.

Any predictions? I'm going with Donne, Rich, Mahon and moany Boland for the poetry. I think there will be something to do with Othello and tragedy and Lit Genre is a definite. A decent unseen poem would be nice too.

Kate P wrote:

Nice to meet you, unaligned. I'm out of the loop this year - on career broken for good - but will still be correcting in June.

Any predictions? I'm going with Donne, Rich, Mahon and moany Boland for the poetry. I think there will be something to do with Othello and tragedy and Lit Genre is a definite. A decent unseen poem would be nice too.

It would be nice in a thread of its own.

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

Kate P wrote:

Nice to meet you, unaligned. I'm out of the loop this year - on career broken for good - but will still be correcting in June.

Any predictions? I'm going with Donne, Rich, Mahon and moany Boland for the poetry. I think there will be something to do with Othello and tragedy and Lit Genre is a definite. A decent unseen poem would be nice too.

It would be nice in a thread of its own.

Leaving Cert predictions thread? Could open us up to litigation, but surely worth it?

I absolutely loved L.C English and had an amazing teacher. I put a lot of what I subsequently achieved - academically at least - down to her teaching methods.

I am not doing 6th year grinds, I have four fifth year students so I am not sure if the poets are the same.

I think my students got a raw deal this year with the poets to be honest. No Heaney, no Frost, no Plath. I try not to predict who will come up but I reckon Bishop is a safe bet and I hope she comes up for the angsty candidates! Is she on for this years L.C?

On the upside, my L.C students have MacBeth, which is very approachable. What are your students doing for the comparative question?

Poets are not the same - they change every year. But I'd say your students are lucky that Plath is not on after being asked for the last two years in a row - there'd be mass examiner suicide otherwise.

Is Walcott on for this year's 5th years and Keats? The new-to-the-course poet seems to come up each year, as does the 'oldest'. I wouldn't mind teaching Keats again. It's years since he's been on the course. Frost was asked last year and is pretty dull really (though the question was difficult enough).

Bishop is not on for 2008.

The kids I have for grinds are all doing My Left Foot, Secret Life of Bees and Curious Incident. It's a nice combination.

Adrienne Rich is a banker for the poetry question. That's what the word on the street is.

Philip Larkin and Derek Mahon could also come up as well. I hope Derek Mahon comes up, his poetry is some of the best on the poetry threads on this site.

Walcott is not on (I am open to correction on that one but I am not covering him with them) while Keats is. It is a shame that Bishop is not on for this years exams, most students respond pretty well to her material. I love 'the fish'.

I agree that Frost's 'nature poems' are a little dull but the others that are on the course are great and easy to engage with. This is my first year teaching L.C (I did J.C the last two years) and I am pretty surprised to see how frightened a lot of students are in relation to poetry!

The unseen poem can really go either way I think, it can be very tricky. That is a fantastic combination for the comparative. My own students are doing 'My left foot' and 'Reading in the Dark'.

unaligned wrote:

I agree that Frost's 'nature poems' are a little dull but the others that are on the course are great and easy to engage with. This is my first year teaching L.C (I did J.C the last two years) and I am pretty surprised to see how frightened a lot of students are in relation to poetry!
.

Indeed. Once you boil it down to imagery, themes, quotes, tone and metaphors/simile, you can pretty much answer any poetry question.

They're all the same thing, therefore they share the same traits.

I've corrected for a long time and am happy to help you with anything you need - send me a pm anytime.

There's a funny distinction, strangely, between the poets the students find it easier to engage with, and the ones they find it easier to write well on - and get good marks on.

Students are terrified of poetry - it takes them to places they don't want to go, but are usually happy to be there once they arrive. And there's a lot of material for them to cover for relatively few marks - only 50, same as Section B on paper 1.

If it's your first year, print off last year's marking scheme from the internet and the most recent chief examiner's report. They'll focus you quite a bit. I hope you're enjoying it - I loved it.

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

unaligned wrote:

I agree that Frost's 'nature poems' are a little dull but the others that are on the course are great and easy to engage with. This is my first year teaching L.C (I did J.C the last two years) and I am pretty surprised to see how frightened a lot of students are in relation to poetry!
.

Indeed. Once you boil it down to imagery, themes, quotes, tone and metaphors/simile, you can pretty much answer any poetry question.

They're all the same thing, therefore they share the same traits.

I agree completely, the L.C honours paper is actually quite formulaic if approached in an intelligent way. I find that poetry is an excellent place to start with students for the reasons that you outline above. It feeds very nicely into other sections and usually gives students the confidence to deal with other aspects of the paper. It really does depend on the teacher though.

unaligned wrote:

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

unaligned wrote:

I agree that Frost's 'nature poems' are a little dull but the others that are on the course are great and easy to engage with. This is my first year teaching L.C (I did J.C the last two years) and I am pretty surprised to see how frightened a lot of students are in relation to poetry!
.

Indeed. Once you boil it down to imagery, themes, quotes, tone and metaphors/simile, you can pretty much answer any poetry question.

They're all the same thing, therefore they share the same traits.

I agree completely, the L.C honours paper is actually quite formulaic if approached in an intelligent way. I find that poetry is an excellent place to start with students for the reasons that you outline above. It feeds very nicely into other sections and usually gives students the confidence to deal with other aspects of the paper. It really does depend on the teacher though.

Yeah, I found doing poetry exam questions like a mad thing for my JC gave me that insight into how simple poetry questions really are. I got that insight and it helped me in many respects for the LC. It's just that for Higher Level LC there's so feckin' many of them that you're deluged with stuff to learn and look at. The gambler's instinct then takes over and instead of studying the 5 out of the 8 poets, you just go for the one.

Lots of subtle changes to be aware of - like the shift from general to pretty specific poetry questions in recent years. Last year 'Frost is a poet of sadness' - pretty tricky.

I'd recommend looking at the marking scheme. Nobody would go onto a sportsfield without knowing how to get points up on the board but LC students do it all the time.

I did LC Hons English in the dim and distant past.

One thing that occurred to me since is this: just as there are "ChickFlicks" and "ChickLit" directed towards a female audience, are some of the books and poems on the LC course really more suitable to female or male students?

I remember when doing the LC that the main book on the course was Portrait of a Lady, which I found to be incredibly longwinded, tedious and boring. Perhaps I was rather immature or perhaps it was more of a woman's book. Is there much of a difference between teaching male and female classes (or maybe they are all mixed these days)?

Kate P wrote:

I've corrected for a long time and am happy to help you with anything you need - send me a pm anytime.

There's a funny distinction, strangely, between the poets the students find it easier to engage with, and the ones they find it easier to write well on - and get good marks on.

Students are terrified of poetry - it takes them to places they don't want to go, but are usually happy to be there once they arrive. And there's a lot of material for them to cover for relatively few marks - only 50, same as Section B on paper 1.

If it's your first year, print off last year's marking scheme from the internet and the most recent chief examiner's report. They'll focus you quite a bit. I hope you're enjoying it - I loved it.

Thank you Kate P, I will probably take you up on that offer if you don't mind! I have read the report from last year - interesting reading.

I absolutely love giving grinds. I took the exam myself six years ago so I was a little bit concerned that I was a bit young to start doing it. Thankfully, they've gone really well and it is really rewarding to work with students on a one to one basis. I also give L.C History grinds and I must say it is a totally different dynamic.

I think the problem with poetry stems from the junior certificate course. If taught in the right way, it is easy to give students a love and appreciation for poetry but it really is neglected at junior cert. level.

Kate P wrote:

I'd recommend looking at the marking scheme. Nobody would go onto a sportsfield without knowing how to get points up on the board but LC students do it all the time.

But aren't the marking schemes just looking for the same PCLM, ie, Purpose, Content, Language and Mechanics?

DeGaulle wrote:

I did LC Hons English in the dim and distant past.

One thing that occurred to me since is this: just as there are "ChickFlicks" and "ChickLit" directed towards a female audience, are some of the books and poems on the LC course really more suitable to female or male students?

I remember when doing the LC that the main book on the course was Portrait of a Lady, which I found to be incredibly longwinded, tedious and boring. Perhaps I was rather immature or perhaps it was more of a woman's book. Is there much of a difference between teaching male and female classes (or maybe they are all mixed these days)?

Yes, its a woman's book, but I think could be read by a man who had been disappointed.

Kate P wrote:

Lots of subtle changes to be aware of - like the shift from general to pretty specific poetry questions in recent years. Last year 'Frost is a poet of sadness' - pretty tricky.

I'd recommend looking at the marking scheme. Nobody would go onto a sportsfield without knowing how to get points up on the board but LC students do it all the time.

It was quite a challenging question but I imagine it gave rise to some answers of genuine quality. A clever student could create a fascinating argument agreeing with or contradicing that view - or both!

I am stunned that teachers still do not inform students about the marking scheme. I remember my own L.C teacher drilling it into us! "Register, register, register!"

They look for alot of personal engagement from what I remember. Worked for me anyway - got an A

I loved LC English but got a poor mark. I reckoned the scoring was too nebulous so I concentrated on the sciences where I could be confident of getting marks to reflect my knowledge. I didn't trust the markers either - it seemed to me that the essay marking was very subjective. I never trusted comprehension tests either but I am not sure if they were part of LC English. In essence, it seemed like a limitless syllabus (10,000 ways to intepret a poem), with a huge part of the pmarks based on an essay that the markers might not understand. My teacher was a bit hurt when I told him honestly that it was getting 7th priority in the study stakes. I'd love to see the marking scheme if it is on the internet. Can you provide a link?

I adopted very much a realist attitude in regard to the English course. I was always quite good at English, but the marks generally manifested themselves not in English but in History and Classical Studies. However, once I got to sixth year I adopted the approach of really giving the examiner what I thought they wanted, rather than necessarily what I would rather have written personally. It resulted in my marks going up a grade.

In regard to English, we were lucky in that we had some absolutely fantastic teachers. One of whom wrote one of the Leaving Certificate textbooks so they were terrific in helping us get the marks we needed. Out of my class of 24 we had 18 A's.

Out of about 130 students in my year we had one A.
That compares with about 20 A's in honours maths.

This is where you'll find last year's marking scheme

I wonder when you did the Leaving Cert, Zhou - under the new or the old regime.

This is not quite as simple as it appears. If you look at the grade grid for PCLM (which is not the same as the marking scheme) you'll see that Purpose, Coherence, Language and mechanics are the four headings under which each piece is marked. But if you have, for example an answer that is very focused in content but poorly worded (longwinded) you've actually got a piece that's not scoring very well under purpose, even though the candidate may not have wandered off the point as such.

It's a very, very fair system and very open to scrutiny.