Faith, ya godda have faith!

Well I don't, or at least didn't until this week.  

It's odd, I abandoned the whold god thing as soon a bribes of sweets weren't enough to get me to go to mass.
We have a border split in my family as well as a God split and within the family one's beliefs never cause any problems this situation did cause some problems and unwanted attention from outisde the family.

Thanks to my parents I luckly escaped Northern Ireland and I can't say I'm not glad of that. While up there is one of the most beautiful places I've ever seen it is filled with the most ugly people I've ever encountered. As I say I escaped most of it directly but even at 7-8 I had ears and a brain. I remember things. It wasn't that, per se that caused me to give up the auld god thing but I know it to be a contributory factor.

I have no problem with religion as long as it's not IN YOUR FACE stuff and I've always lauded faith based charity that doesn't come with strings attached. And I saw the need for faith in other people, the chance to pass off their fears, failures, hopes onto, to have some higher power that they somehow have some input with, that they're not just a tiny meaningless pawn in a big scary world that doesn't care for them all that much. I see it's appeal for other reasons too but perhaps I was naive in believing that I don't, or at least didn't, need it.

But then twice this week I consdered looking to the sky, falling to my knees and asking for help. The first time was a selfish reason, but no less important, I mean look at what it made me consider! Desparate times and all that.
The second was much less selfish in that in directly involved abother person, but at the same time should such a request be answered it would avoid me experiencing an awful lot of pain. Then again I'd half exect a fax from god reading "well it's not like you couldn't have seen this coming" and it's true.

Still it was a very odd experience for me.

Hello cookiemonster. Your experience resonates. I am a practising atheist but many is the time I call for help or give thanks. Religiosity is more than just a wrong idea or a bad habit, I think our brains just kind of do it, and it helps us to cope. The way the economy is going, I wouldn't blame anyone for praying, as there is probably not much else we can do. In times of trouble, may be a less damaging option than drink, provided we don't actually believe in it.

cactus flower, what do you mean by practising atheist? Does it mean an atheist who goes to mass or an atheist who is very active in their beliefs?

Either way you're going to hell. You too cookiemonster.

Come to the light, cookiemonster. Faith is a wonderful thing which can give sustenance in the most difficult, torrid and challenging times. Jesus Christ and his message of love, charity, forgiveness and openness are a message which should be heard throughout the world. The Way, The Truth and The Light are through Our Lord Jesus Christ. Praise the Lord!

Whatever about my prayers anybody elses going for the same cause dont seem to be getting through. Still I guess it could be worse, but still here I am waiting for Godot and I know he's coming and I've know it for a while and it's still horrible and I can't even begin to prepare for it.

Death fucking sucks.

905 wrote:

cactus flower, what do you mean by practising atheist? Does it mean an atheist who goes to mass or an atheist who is very active in their beliefs?

Either way you're going to hell. You too cookiemonster.

See them there, so. I'm sorry for your troubles, cookie.

Thanks, Ibis.

And hey, at least hell will be warm. Cookie not so much happy with the cold.

cookiemonster wrote:

Thanks, Ibis.

And hey, at least hell will be warm. Cookie not so much happy with the cold.

The New Jerusalem will be perfection. Those who believe in the Word of God will enter the gates of this perfect city and live with Jesus Christ. I strongly recommend re-engaging with your faith, it is a fantastic armour and shield against life's challenges.

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

Thanks, Ibis.

And hey, at least hell will be warm. Cookie not so much happy with the cold.

The New Jerusalem will be perfection. Those who believe in the Word of God will enter the gates of this perfect city and live with Jesus Christ. I strongly recommend re-engaging with your faith, it is a fantastic armour and shield against life's challenges.

Evangelical?

ibis wrote:

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

Thanks, Ibis.

And hey, at least hell will be warm. Cookie not so much happy with the cold.

The New Jerusalem will be perfection. Those who believe in the Word of God will enter the gates of this perfect city and live with Jesus Christ. I strongly recommend re-engaging with your faith, it is a fantastic armour and shield against life's challenges.

Evangelical?

He's quoting the Book of Revelation.

ibis wrote:

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

Thanks, Ibis.

And hey, at least hell will be warm. Cookie not so much happy with the cold.

The New Jerusalem will be perfection. Those who believe in the Word of God will enter the gates of this perfect city and live with Jesus Christ. I strongly recommend re-engaging with your faith, it is a fantastic armour and shield against life's challenges.

Evangelical?

Roman Catholic.

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

ibis wrote:

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

Thanks, Ibis.

And hey, at least hell will be warm. Cookie not so much happy with the cold.

The New Jerusalem will be perfection. Those who believe in the Word of God will enter the gates of this perfect city and live with Jesus Christ. I strongly recommend re-engaging with your faith, it is a fantastic armour and shield against life's challenges.

Evangelical?

Roman Catholic.

Ah. Very staunch.

What is your opinion on the use of the word Roman AT?

I can imagine conversations of this nature will be alot more relaxed and enjoyable than politics.ie!

johnfás wrote:

What is your opinion on the use of the word Roman AT?

I can imagine conversations of this nature will be alot more relaxed and enjoyable than politics.ie!

You ******* ****! Shut your ******* face you ******* Jesus hating pox!

ibis wrote:

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

ibis wrote:

Ard-Taoiseach wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

Thanks, Ibis.

And hey, at least hell will be warm. Cookie not so much happy with the cold.

The New Jerusalem will be perfection. Those who believe in the Word of God will enter the gates of this perfect city and live with Jesus Christ. I strongly recommend re-engaging with your faith, it is a fantastic armour and shield against life's challenges.

Evangelical?

Roman Catholic.

Ah. Very staunch.

Yep. I love my faith and think that it is a very important part of life. It is great in times of difficulty and a source of support. It is also a constant reminder of how lucky you are and of the responsibilities you have towards your fellow person. Jesus is an example to us all. We should try to live like him.

905 wrote:

cactus flower, what do you mean by practising atheist? Does it mean an atheist who goes to mass or an atheist who is very active in their beliefs?

Active in my disbeliefs.

cactus flower wrote:

Active in my disbeliefs.

Cookie, know you've left the site but if you're still reading ... just caught up with this thread tonight. Lost my dad and uncle while both in their 50s and two very close grandparents. To say death sucks doesn't even come close, does it? I haven't been a "proper" believer for many years (since about 14 really) but have still prayed for them all, plus for mum and siblings, every day. Don't care if it's hypocrisy, it's my way of still communicating with them all. And that communication will always be important and real.

Despite Dawkins et al, only finally gave up on religion when I read Karen Armstrong's A History of God recently. It was actually quite a comforting book in many ways.

I also wholeheartedly agree with Mark Ravenhill's article in yesterday's Guardian -

http://arts.guardian.co.uk/art/visualart/story/0,,2273469,00.html

Atticus wrote:

Cookie, know you've left the site but if you're still reading ... just caught up with this thread tonight. Lost my dad and uncle while both in their 50s and two very close grandparents. To say death sucks doesn't even come close, does it? I haven't been a "proper" believer for many years (since about 14 really) but have still prayed for them all, plus for mum and siblings, every day. Don't care if it's hypocrisy, it's my way of still communicating with them all. And that communication will always be important and real.

Despite Dawkins et al, only finally gave up on religion when I read Karen Armstrong's A History of God recently. It was actually quite a comforting book in many ways.

I also wholeheartedly agree with Mark Ravenhill's article in yesterday's Guardian -

http://arts.guardian.co.uk/art/visualart/story/0,,2273469,00.html

What would you consider yourself?

jesus (!) don't ask that question! hmm, i guess an atheist, though that word really still feels a bit uncomfortable.

Agnostic? No, atheist. Some of the most truly influential people in my life, whom I have known directly, have been religious RC (the priest who left the priesthood and became a writer, the nun who went undercover and helped some SA blacks escape the Apartheid regime into Mozambique, another nun who used her private confidential vote in one of the various referenda to vote against the Church based on her own family experience of disability, another priest who was subjected to the most disgusting allegations though his only crime was to help the poor and was taken advantage of), an earlier maybe easier version of Catholicism has definitely influenced my beliefs and that is absolutely fine. Am reading Christopher Hitchens' God is not Great on the train this week and I really can't disagree with anything he says. And yet, his book also angers me, it is quite facile in places ... sorry that belongs on one of the book threads but it's got me worked up.

Atticus wrote:

jesus (!) don't ask that question! hmm, i guess an atheist, though that word really still feels a bit uncomfortable.

Agnostic? No, atheist. Some of the most truly influential people in my life, whom I have known directly, have been religious RC (the priest who left the priesthood and became a writer, the nun who went undercover and helped some SA blacks escape the Apartheid regime into Mozambique, another nun who used her private confidential vote in one of the various referenda to vote against the Church based on her own family experience of disability, another priest who was subjected to the most disgusting allegations though his only crime was to help the poor and was taken advantage of), an earlier maybe easier version of Catholicism has definitely influenced my beliefs and that is absolutely fine. Am reading Christopher Hitchens' God is not Great on the train this week and I really can't disagree with anything he says. And yet, his book also angers me, it is quite facile in places ... sorry that belongs on one of the book threads but it's got me worked up.

Hitchens annoys a lot of atheists, though. I admit to not having read him, on the basis of never reading people on the same side as me.

Atticus wrote:

Cookie, know you've left the site but if you're still reading ... just caught up with this thread tonight. Lost my dad and uncle while both in their 50s and two very close grandparents. To say death sucks doesn't even come close, does it? I haven't been a "proper" believer for many years (since about 14 really) but have still prayed for them all, plus for mum and siblings, every day. Don't care if it's hypocrisy, it's my way of still communicating with them all. And that communication will always be important and real.

Despite Dawkins et al, only finally gave up on religion when I read Karen Armstrong's A History of God recently. It was actually quite a comforting book in many ways.

I also wholeheartedly agree with Mark Ravenhill's article in yesterday's Guardian -

[url=http://arts.guardian.co.uk/art/visualart/story/0,,2273469,00.html

http://arts.guardian.co.uk/art/visualart/story/0,,2273469,00.html[/quote[/url]]

I have to admit that I have read neither book. Perhaps an idea might be, if you and were interested, to have a pair of books, pro and anti belief, up for twin Books of the Month (month after next now, as Evo has nominated Craft (?) for next month.

The perspective I would come from is that religion is an important part of history, human development and survival. I don't share Dawkins approach because I think he lacks an understanding of religion and its development. He just wants to prove it is "wrong" (I heard a couple of lengthy interviews with him).

I have sympathy for our need for belief, and respect peoples right to express their religious beliefs provided it doesnt involve harming anybody else. That would apply to all religions. If I was religious, I would choose paganism, because it was the longest lasting belief set that human history has known and was more in tune with our dependence on the planet than modern religion.

I think religion is dangerous in the era we are in now because it is not science based and encourages people in irrationality. It is a strong feature of Christianity that the world was given to Man for man's benefit. The reality is we are dependent on the planet and its ecosystems within which we evolved and we are damaging them, possibly to the point of risking extinction of our species. I don't believe there is a God who is going to dig us out and fix it, or that we are going to escape to an afterlife. I think this is it, and we have to look after it the best we can, as a human species trying to learn how to make our occupation of the planet sustainable.

Paganism isn't a religion - it's reality.

ibis wrote:

Atticus wrote:

jesus (!) don't ask that question! hmm, i guess an atheist, though that word really still feels a bit uncomfortable.

Agnostic? No, atheist. Some of the most truly influential people in my life, whom I have known directly, have been religious RC (the priest who left the priesthood and became a writer, the nun who went undercover and helped some SA blacks escape the Apartheid regime into Mozambique, another nun who used her private confidential vote in one of the various referenda to vote against the Church based on her own family experience of disability, another priest who was subjected to the most disgusting allegations though his only crime was to help the poor and was taken advantage of), an earlier maybe easier version of Catholicism has definitely influenced my beliefs and that is absolutely fine. Am reading Christopher Hitchens' God is not Great on the train this week and I really can't disagree with anything he says. And yet, his book also angers me, it is quite facile in places ... sorry that belongs on one of the book threads but it's got me worked up.

Hitchens annoys a lot of atheists, though. I admit to not having read him, on the basis of never reading people on the same side as me.

I think he annoys atheists for a lot of other reasons too. His views on Iraq, and the al Qaeda link have turned him into an apostate of the left. He's fairly smug, and condemns a lot of people as idiots, including, iirc, his own brother. He may just be the cold hyperrational, personalityless figure that has become the atheist stereotype among the religious.

Has anyone ever been to dawkins website? Is there a bit of selflove going on there? He has recently shown an interview of himself with Bill Maher, wherein he called (or was lead to call) Francis Collins an idiot, but to which a laugh track was added, and rather favourably to his material. The comments on that site are wonderful though. They prove that it's not merely the rational who are atheists, and how it's becoming a group identity, shock horror.

That said, I'm rather afraid to read the God Delusion.

I always understood Hitchens to be a controversialist, someone who argues for argument's sake. If true then it's a bit of a weak basis for one's opinions on religion, whichis why I thought atheists didn't like him. At least you get the feeling that Dawkins has conviction, self-defeating though it is.