Soldiers shot, some killed, at drive-by shooting in Antrim

toxic avenger wrote:

It's been in the offing for a couple of years now. They stepped up the game about a year or so ago, that they would kill someone was almost inevitable. Their view, as espoused by merle in a long argument I had with him last night, seems to be that such actions aren't intended for military victory, only for stirring the pot, getting a response, sucking everyone back in and thus making out that British policy is a failure. When I question this in more detail, it gets very vague, lots of generalisations and cloud-cuckoo nonsense. Those that quibble are called Brit-lovers and nancy boys. I'd love to see the sane posters on that site descend en masse on the thread to condemn it, but a number seem to be deliberately avoiding confronting it.

I've stayed out of over there - its a bit scary to hear all the armchair "activist" finally spring to life over what was such a cowardly and pathetic act - 2 off duty soldiers and 2 pizza deliverymen - mother of God! - I've stayed out of the thread because this all about the oxygen of publicity - Im not giving Merle and gang any more ammo than they already have - and most other posters seem to be of the same opinion - let the thread be what it is - just a bunch of sad pathetic losers wanking themselves into a frenzy applauding the attacking of a couple of British Kids and a couple of lads trying to earn a living.

Sadly , in a way, this kind of thing was going to happen sooner or later -there are always some who cannot give up the fight unless they win purely on their terms - its a common thread in every nationalist/radical movement - witness the historys of Egypt,Algeria and the rest in the Islamic world - Africa is another area that springs to mind - the purists are never happy with compromise - dont understand the word compromise - because that would imply having to come to terms with the real world - which is not the one they inhabit, not the one in which they are all seeing masters of the universe,everybody bowing down before their brilliance and women throwing themselves at them - There is a common link between this kind of thing and terrorism everywhere - normally frustrated,introverted and repressed young men who lash out in fury and anger - for young nationalist men in the North - it will always be the British Army - right or wrong - doesnt get around the fact that until a majority wish to be united with the Republic - British it wil remain - in a way - the longer and more durable the peace=process remains - the more the withdrawal of British troops would have gathered pace.

Hope everybody up there takes a deep breath - Nobody said it was going to be easy - too much has been achieved to throw it all away like this.

The sooner the better the stupid bastards who did this are convicted for it and put behind bars for a very long time, the better off we'll all be.

Its kind of shocking to hear of soldiers being shot in the north again. How times have changed from 15 years ago. Here's hoping we don't go back to those days. My feeling on this was the guys who did it got luckier that they or anyone else cares to admit. Security guards didn't fire back and the soldiers themselves were in a relaxed state to go sauntering out to a car unarmed.

I hope it was a fluke. My guess is that increased security will mean that this sort of thing won't happen again. Hopefully the British Government decide to act sensibly about this and don't do anything to alienate nationalists or stir the pot. Thats probably what the RIRA want, a disporportionate response that will give them some sort of moral authority amung sections of the northern community that are ambivilant about the GFA.

The more I think about this the more disgusted I am by it. The two young soldiers who were shot dead were 11 & 9 years of age when the GFA was signed, they are sent to the North, not on guard, not expecting trouble, when these dregs of humanity come out from under a rock and end their lives & in the process shoot two completely innocent delivery men, one no more than a boy himself, all to make a political point.

There have been some strong words from SF and everyone else with the power to do something about this, I hope they follow through and obliterate these pieces of shit now calling themselves the RIRA.

tonys wrote:

The more I think about this the more disgusted I am by it. The two young soldiers who were shot dead were 11 & 9 years of age when the GFA was signed, they are sent to the North, not on guard, not expecting trouble, when these dregs of humanity come out from under a rock and end their lives & in the process shoot two completely innocent delivery men, one no more than a boy himself, all to make a political point.

There have been some strong words from SF and everyone else with the power to do something about this, I hope they follow through and obliterate these pieces of shit now calling themselves the RIRA.

Agree with all of that. What has also disturbed me is the number of (I hope barstool rebel) posters over yonder glorifying the thing and launching straight into victim whatabouttery if anyone objects. They're actually trying to justify shooting a Polish chap and a 19 year old earning pocket-money on the ground. I wonder are they aware that their IPs can be traced...

dp.

toxic avenger wrote:

tonys wrote:

The more I think about this the more disgusted I am by it. The two young soldiers who were shot dead were 11 & 9 years of age when the GFA was signed, they are sent to the North, not on guard, not expecting trouble, when these dregs of humanity come out from under a rock and end their lives & in the process shoot two completely innocent delivery men, one no more than a boy himself, all to make a political point.

There have been some strong words from SF and everyone else with the power to do something about this, I hope they follow through and obliterate these pieces of shit now calling themselves the RIRA.

Agree with all of that. What has also disturbed me is the number of (I hope barstool rebel) posters over yonder glorifying the thing and launching straight into victim whatabouttery if anyone objects. They're actually trying to justify shooting a Polish chap and a 19 year old earning pocket-money on the ground. I wonder are they aware that their IPs can be traced...

TA you might say I'm biased and maybe I am, but I wouldn't judge anything on what passes for comment over there. Since at least the beginning of '07 that place has been a cesspit of the worst the small minds of Ireland can come up with, with fewer & fewer sane posters to deflect from the general muck that gets put up there.

tonys wrote:

toxic avenger wrote:

tonys wrote:

The more I think about this the more disgusted I am by it. The two young soldiers who were shot dead were 11 & 9 years of age when the GFA was signed, they are sent to the North, not on guard, not expecting trouble, when these dregs of humanity come out from under a rock and end their lives & in the process shoot two completely innocent delivery men, one no more than a boy himself, all to make a political point.

There have been some strong words from SF and everyone else with the power to do something about this, I hope they follow through and obliterate these pieces of shit now calling themselves the RIRA.

Agree with all of that. What has also disturbed me is the number of (I hope barstool rebel) posters over yonder glorifying the thing and launching straight into victim whatabouttery if anyone objects. They're actually trying to justify shooting a Polish chap and a 19 year old earning pocket-money on the ground. I wonder are they aware that their IPs can be traced...

TA you might say I'm biased and maybe I am, but I wouldn't judge anything on what passes for comment over there. Since at least the beginning of '07 that place has been a cesspit of the worst the small minds of Ireland can come up with, with fewer & fewer sane posters to deflect from the general muck that gets put up there.

Tony, for one you and I are in complete agreement. The standard of posting on politics.ie is purile, idiotic, superficial and quite frankly repulsive. Almost all the good posters have left there. It now appears to be over-run with the bitter, the angry, the extremes of right and left, fundamentalists of one form or another, and as can be seen in their discussion on the murders, the site is now a breeding ground for extremist so-called republicans (with the odd extremist Unionist thrown in). Why David Cochrane has not pulled the plug on the site I do not know. Surely he knows that the site's reputation now is mud? No-one takes it seriously and most people would be embarrassed now to have anything to do with it. He is associated with a site that is seen as a rag-bag of fringe elements - wrongly. He is a decent guy but it hardly does his reputation credit to be seen as the guy giving such extremists a place to rant about how good it was to see people killed in the North and produce views on other issues that are so minority as to be ridiculous. He should simply close down the site, open a new one and have the new one strictly monitored. I think at this stage politics.ie's reputation is such that I think it is beyond salvage. It is a pity but on the internet some sites just go off the rails and go beyond the point of salvage and I think that has happened to politics.ie. (I have seen it happen to a few sites over the years. That is why a site needs professional managing and monitoring 24-7. You cannot leave a site to manage itself. Politics.ie lost practically all its good mods, while David Cochrane understandably is too busy with Libertas to devote enough time to it. I suppose eventually if you are running a site you also get burnout and end up standing back. Whatever happened, politics.ie is a mess, with a discredited reputation as a home for nutcases now, whereas once it was the premier site for debating politics.)

I still glance at it but the comments on the murders were disgusting in the extreme. What is striking is that stuff that even a year ago would not be tolerated now is allowed to be posted. While I may disagree with Tony it was bizarre that he of all people was kicked off the site when so many others are tolerated notwithstanding the offensive and provocative, not to mention downright nasty, stuff they post.

Police officer shot at Craigavon, in critical condition:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0309/craigavon.html

The BBC are hinting at officers (plural)...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7933990.stm

Some sources now saying killed.

Yep, Sky saying killed.

Another terrible incident. Are you watching Sky, toxic? Are there reports of any other injuries?

No, had it on another board that sky was saying it. They're saying 'at least' one officer shot. That officer is now dead, confirmed by BBC:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7933990.stm

Terrible news. The whole community must rally behind the PSNI at this stage and enable them to bring these people to justice. There must not be an overreaction but equally the full vigour of the law must be brought upon these criminals who pose a risk to the live's of everyone in Northern Ireland from politicians to pizza deliverymen as well as posing an economic threat to investment in the South.

UTV live - Reg Empey, David Ford and Mark Durkan discussing it.

Confirming the PSNI officer died.

"There must be no retaliation" - Reg Empey

There was a pipe bomb apparently left outside the Shinners' office in Cookstown tonight, plus a suspect device left at Lurgan police station. It's reported that the police officer shot at Craigavon was lured into an ambush there by a bomb warning.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7933409.stm

I see a few days of sustained activity in store, perhaps a 'spectacular', then them melting away to hide for a good while. They need to be stamped on hard.

Second officer injured too.

jesus! Guess I was badly wrong. How has this happened if the security forces have supposedly infiltrated the RIRA?

They haven't infiltrated the RIRA, as I said above, a large proportion of the intelligence held on republican groups was lost with the transfer to the PSNI. It was presumably hoped that this level of capacity for intelligence gathering was no longer necessary, it appears that was not the case. Then again, no amount of intelligence will stop a few lads heading out with a gun and firing off a few rounds. We know that these dissident groups do not have the same command structure as the Provos did so really we don't know where the orders come from in these situations - that is a considerable difference.

johnfás wrote:

They haven't infiltrated the RIRA, as I said above, a large proportion of the intelligence held on republican groups was lost with the transfer to the PSNI. It was presumably hoped that this level of capacity for intelligence gathering was no longer necessary, it appears that was not the case. Then again, no amount of intelligence will stop a few lads heading out with a gun and firing off a few rounds. We know that these dissident groups do not have the same command structure as the Provos did so really we don't know where the orders come from in these situations - that is a considerable difference.

That is inconceivable johnfas. If an Intelligence Service is saying they haven't infiltrated an organisation, you can be damn sure that they have.

The dogs on the street know that the intelligence services in the North got it badly wrong in the early 2000's when security was stepped down (correctly) but in a manner which lacked foresight. It allowed a whole lot of organisations to slip through the loop and the intelligence services have been chasing their tails ever since.

On an issue like this, I would not rely on the dogs in the street. When a heavily infiltrated organisation splits, do you really think all the operatives/informers are told to stay on the one side of the split???

tonights incident came after a member of the public called for assistance and two police cars arrived.
news still very sparse.
Keviin Toolis on Sky is saying "Irish republicanism is a religion"

Frightened Albanian wrote:

tonights incident came after a member of the public called for assistance and two police cars arrived.
news still very sparse.
Keviin Toolis on Sky is saying "Irish republicanism is a religion"

I'd like to wait for the dust to settle here a bit - everybody is on tender hooks here - lets not fly off the handle here - could have been a domestic -or gangland related - I'd like to wait for further clarification.

Rethinking the last couple of days - and with CFs post above in mind too - I wonder if the attack on the British Soldiers wasn't just the act of a deranged individual - I mean -whose to say the perpetrator didn't get dumped by the girlfriend, or even worse, dumped for a Brit, and just snapped and decided to take out his hurt,anger and percieved inadequacy on the nearest available target - pumping nearly 60 bullets into 4 individuals doesn't sound like the action of a cool calculated individual - we've seen it in gun attacks everywhere - and it would be very convenient for the RIRA to claim it would it not? - it aids them immensely and gives the impression that they are able to organise more than a committee meeting in a phone box.

Hmm - just keeping an open mind on this - important thing is everybody remains as calm as possible - this could spiral from totally unconnected circumstances

Edo wrote:

Frightened Albanian wrote:

tonights incident came after a member of the public called for assistance and two police cars arrived.
news still very sparse.
Keviin Toolis on Sky is saying "Irish republicanism is a religion"

I'd like to wait for the dust to settle here a bit - everybody is on tender hooks here - lets not fly off the handle here - could have been a domestic -or gangland related - I'd like to wait for further clarification.

Rethinking the last couple of days - and with CFs post above in mind too - I wonder if the attack on the British Soldiers wasn't just the act of a deranged individual - I mean -whose to say the perpetrator didn't get dumped by the girlfriend, or even worse, dumped for a Brit, and just snapped and decided to take out his hurt,anger and percieved inadequacy on the nearest available target - pumping nearly 60 bullets into 4 individuals doesn't sound like the action of a cool calculated individual - we've seen it in gun attacks everywhere - and it would be very convenient for the RIRA to claim it would it not? - it aids them immensely and gives the impression that they are able to organise more than a committee meeting in a phone box.

Hmm - just keeping an open mind on this - important thing is everybody remains as calm as possible - this could spiral from totally unconnected circumstances

The Antrim killings were well organised in advance. It was not a deranged person (not in the sense you mean anyway), it was cool and calculated by a number of people, they must have been reccying that place for months. I agree that people losing the head is what they want.