Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod

Guest

toxic avenger wrote:

ibis wrote:

toxic avenger wrote:

johnfás wrote:: Comparisons between the American Constitution and the Lisbon Treaty are entirely futile and well you know it cookie. For a start the US Constitution, whilst federal in nature (in that it is made up of States) is in fact a single state in the global order. This is entirely apart from the European Union which is made up of sovereign actors in the international system who have merely limited their sovereignty in respect of certain issues between each other in a limited Union. Beyond that, owing to the nature of the institution, that of a international institution rather than a State itself, the Treaties contain a broad ambit of legislative principles as well as overarching principles. That is the nature of an international treaty.

Ah, but having 'limited their sovereignty' so far they have created an entity which contains the seeds of the transcendence of the sovereign state system. The Constitution comparison makes perfect sense, for that is indeed the end goal of the integrationist idealists, and the original rationale behind the Constitution, as it was, was an explicit consolidation of this agenda. It is meant to presage the transcendence to single-state status...

Perhaps - some time in the 22nd century. Or after.

We can only hope. Vote 'no' anyway, ibis, just to make sure...

Nah - I'll vote Yes, because I want the democratic reforms in Lisbon. I just don't buy the whole "be afraid! 'tis a superstate! a superstate I tell ya!" schtick.

Seriously, I can't for a second see the EU becoming the superstate of nationalist fears, have no visceral reaction to the concept in any case (I want effective democracy, but I don't see what the nation-state has to do with it), and think Ganley's claim that Lisbon is some kind of power-grab to be naked rhetoric lacking any backing evidence or rationale.

You could say, I suppose, that while we both (afaik) want what might reasonably be called a 'local Europe', with power devolved as far as possible towards the citizen, you seem to believe that such a Europe can only come about under a system of nation-states, whereas I believe the opposite. To me, inter-state competition breeds centralisation, conformity, and monoculturalism in the service of strengthening the state - and I think a pretty decent historical case can be made that this is so - that the nationalist ethos has produced a mythos of a single national identity, which has been deliberately fostered to strengthen the "team spirit" of nation-states for war physical, ideological, and economic. In turn, state monoculturalism requires the suppression of minority identities and the drafting of uniform laws. To me, that's the greatest change from the old multicultural empires, kingdoms and principalities - and it happened in the service of nationalism. Further, inter-state rivalry calls up and fosters rejection of the foreigner, bringing in its train racism, xenophobia, ignorance and war. Nationalism breeds conflict as a corpse breeds maggots.

The EU, on the other hand, is an entity bound to the service of the states, but diverting their rivalries into less forceful channels, which in turn relieves the pressure on the nation-state to strengthen a single identity. We don't see it here, because we are a young state, with no historic tradition of provincial self-government - but the UK is breaking up or loosening its hold on its components now that its enmity for the Continentals is conducted through committees and votes rather than naked force and maritime embargoes. The EU will never become a state any more than the Austro-Hungarian Empire did - its constituent parts are too different already, their enmities too old. It will take centuries before France and Germany would agree to become one entity, and many more centuries before that entity could comfortably absorb the UK - and that would still be only the start of the process. So I can only foresee the EU jogging along as a dull but rational framework - with cooperation becoming now rougher, now smoother, as the various member states move along their individual but related paths. It's a cat-herding framework, and as one might expect, it suffers from a certain dysfunctionality - but as long as its constituents remain cats, there is neither hope nor fear of it becoming a superstate.

It seems to me that you see the EU simply - and incorrectly, in my opinion - as the oppressive uniformitarian state writ large.

Guest

cookiemonster wrote:

Frightened Albanian wrote:: If as Ganley reackons a treaty between 27 nations can be no longer than 25 pages then his manifesto will probably amount to no more than a few smug grunts.

The US constitution, originally agreed between 13 states, extended by 27 amendments and now covering over 300 million people in 50 states is 4 pages long, extended to 6 if you inlclude the letter of transmittal and the Bill of Rights. And it is far from a "few smug grunts".

The US constitution does have 27 amendments you fail to mention the thousands of Supreme court decisions which were necessary to interpret and clarify the meaning of particular clauses. By 1971 taht already ran to over 400 volumes. It is completely disengenuous and (typically for Libertas) misleading to suggest that the US constitution and its amendments stand alone you must include the case law of the Supreme Court .

Guest

cookiemonster wrote:

johnfás wrote:: Comparisons between the American Constitution and the Lisbon Treaty are entirely futile and well you know it cookie.

Just as well I'm not doing that then, isn't it. I'm comparing it to what Ganley has said in the past that there should be a European Union Constitution and it should run no longer than 25 pages. I'm making a comparison between that and the Constitution of the United States.

That just proves further that Declan Ganley of Libertas talks through his cake hole. Note between 1937 and 1975. there were 7,407 US Supreme Court decisions filling volumes 300 through 422 of U.S. Reports. Oct term 2001 ran up 1001 pages US reports vol 527

Guest

cookiemonster wrote:: Well if we get the camera angles right it will look like a lot more.

Kudos Cookie. I love it when you are humorous. Very Happy

Kudos Frightened Albanian for pointing out that the US constitution would occupy an entire library.

Kudos Johnfás for a considered, measured and informative post on comparisons between the US Constitution and the Lisbon Treaty in respect of national sovereignty and other issues..

All of this makes me hope that the absurd notion of page length as significant to the debate on the EU constitution/Lisbon may soon disappear and we can look forward to a discussion with substance as to the content of any revised treaty.

And if I could figure out how to nest quotes from other posts there would be kudos for me! Smile

Guest

ibis wrote:: Nah - I'll vote Yes, because I want the democratic reforms in Lisbon. I just don't buy the whole "be afraid! 'tis a superstate! a superstate I tell ya!" schtick.

Seriously, I can't for a second see the EU becoming the superstate of nationalist fears, have no visceral reaction to the concept in any case (I want effective democracy, but I don't see what the nation-state has to do with it), and think Ganley's claim that Lisbon is some kind of power-grab to be naked rhetoric lacking any backing evidence or rationale.

...

It seems to me that you see the EU simply - and incorrectly, in my opinion - as the oppressive uniformitarian state writ large.

Ibis, and I'm not being smart, but that has got to be one of the most lucid and concise explanations for why the EU is important and why it offers no threat to the diverse people of Europe, our cultures and our various democratic traditions. I've copied it for later us if you don't object.

Guest

Libertas must be plotting Cookie is silent on both sites

Guest

Frightened Albanian wrote:: Libertas must be plotting Cookie is silent on both sites

There are all kinds of more benign explanations for that FA. Time will tell.

Guest

The furher was in Slovakia Sunday and Monday. he hopes for a low turnout in the elections as it would favour small parties.
he also said he did not want to be irish prime minister

Guest

Frightened Albanian wrote:: The furher was in Slovakia Sunday and Monday. he hopes for a low turnout in the elections as it would favour small parties.
he also said he did not want to be irish prime minister

Any link, Frightened Albanian ?

Guest

Frightened Albanian wrote:: The furher was in Slovakia Sunday and Monday.

His name is Declan.

Guest

Frightened Albanian wrote:: Libertas must be plotting Cookie is silent on both sites

Are you stalking me online? That's pretty weird behaviour.

Guest

cookiemonster wrote:

Frightened Albanian wrote:: Libertas must be plotting Cookie is silent on both sites

Are you stalking me online? That's pretty weird behaviour.

Stalking? I think he was just missing you.

Guest

cactus flower wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

Frightened Albanian wrote:: Libertas must be plotting Cookie is silent on both sites

Are you stalking me online? That's pretty weird behaviour.

Stalking? I think he was just missing you.

That's weird too.

Guest

cookiemonster wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

Frightened Albanian wrote:: Libertas must be plotting Cookie is silent on both sites

Are you stalking me online? That's pretty weird behaviour.

Stalking? I think he was just missing you.

That's weird too.

Not cute? A certain familiarity builds up sometimes in these protracted disputes. Poisoner chained to victim, Stockholm syndrome, you know the kind of thing.

Guest

cactus flower wrote:

Frightened Albanian wrote:: The furher was in Slovakia Sunday and Monday. he hopes for a low turnout in the elections as it would favour small parties.
he also said he did not want to be irish prime minister

Any link, Frightened Albanian ?

people Korps has some links here

Guest

cookiemonster wrote:

Frightened Albanian wrote:: The furher was in Slovakia Sunday and Monday.

His name is Declan.

Of course I miss you cookie!
and yes the Furher's name is Declan. were you in Brussels per chance?

Guest

cactus flower wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

Frightened Albanian wrote:: Libertas must be plotting Cookie is silent on both sites

Are you stalking me online? That's pretty weird behaviour.

Stalking? I think he was just missing you.

That's weird too.

Not cute? A certain familiarity builds up sometimes in these protracted disputes. Poisoner chained to victim, Stockholm syndrome, you know the kind of thing.

definately Stockholm syndrome, I sometimes feel sorry for Libertas when they do another big boo boo. I was even feeling sorry for the ganleys until I read a comment on Bock from a neighbour saying the parents were politically active also in the anti abortionist movemnet when the bald one was a bog cutting lad. the same poster says that the bold Deco took the FCA very seriously...........so Mick McD ex of the PDs and sometime advisor to Libertas. the two weeks man pay in the summer must have been the thing.

Guest

Frightened Albanian wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

Frightened Albanian wrote:: Libertas must be plotting Cookie is silent on both sites

Are you stalking me online? That's pretty weird behaviour.

Stalking? I think he was just missing you.

That's weird too.

Not cute? A certain familiarity builds up sometimes in these protracted disputes. Poisoner chained to victim, Stockholm syndrome, you know the kind of thing.

definately Stockholm syndrome, I sometimes feel sorry for Libertas when they do another big boo boo. I was even feeling sorry for the ganleys until I read a comment on Bock from a neighbour saying the parents were politically active also in the anti abortionist movemnet when the bald one was a bog cutting lad. the same poster says that the bold Deco took the FCA very seriously...........so Mick McD ex of the PDs and sometime advisor to Libertas. the two weeks man pay in the summer must have been the thing.

Wtf is wrong with that? I'd say a good majority of older people in the country (particularly in the west) are very opposed to abortion. A hostile political gossip site reports tittle-tattle from the neighbours about this man's parents and this has what to do with anything? I absolutely loathe Bertie Ahern, but never once have I commented upon a member of his family as a means of attacking him.

Guest

Frightened Albanian wrote:: [the bold Deco took the FCA very seriously............

Clearly. His club in London is the Naval and Military.

http://cnbceb.com/people-profiles/declan-ganley/421/

Guest

Quote :: I'd say a good majority of older people in the country (particularly in the west) are very opposed to abortion. A hostile political gossip site reports tittle-tattle from the neighbours about this man's parents and this has what to do with anything? I absolutely loathe Bertie Ahern, but never once have I commented upon a member of his family as a means of attacking him.

Policy before politics/politicians and their families please. A balance between both would be very welcome. If there's an overhang in the one I favour less (politicians and politics) then I'll be inclined to start pruning posts ... snip snip

Guest

candide wrote:

Frightened Albanian wrote:: [the bold Deco took the FCA very seriously............

Clearly. His club in London is the Naval and Military.

http://cnbceb.com/people-profiles/declan-ganley/421/

Sometimes people's links don't work - maybe you could quote a little summary of the article ?

Thanks.

Guest

I can read the article just fine. If anything, I admire the man for his gumption on the strength of what i read. It's clear he had a lot of self-belief and an innate aility to spot an opportunity. This bit speaks volumes:

Quote :: Ireland was suffering economically, however, so aged 18 Ganley
followed in the footsteps of millions of migrants before him and
left for London. Once there, he started work immediately as a steel
fixer on a building site working long hours, supplemented by bar
work at a rough Cricklewood pub and another in Brixton. So far, so
ordinary, the story of any immigrant anywhere. And it was clearly
a low point for Ganley, who admits to shedding tears of frustration
at his failure to break into the bright lights of the City.

But then, get this: He responded to a newspaper ad for an office
boy at a marine insurance brokerage house, and by delivering the
tea, charmed a partner into listening to Ganley’s Big Idea. It was
1987.
The previous year Nasa’s Challenger space shuttle had blown up, but
Ganley had read in a German technology magazine that the Soviets
had a good track record for satellite launches. Why not offer to insure
Western communication satellites launched on Soviet rockets?

The idea was madder than a box of monkeys, and all this during
a Cold War that hadn’t yet thawed. But it was the episode that
launched Ganley even if it launched nothing else. He started by
looking up “soviet” under “s” in the Yellow Pages, finding the trade
delegator and arranging a meeting. Amazingly, he then arranged
a trade delegation to Moscow early in 1988, aged 19, resulting in a
contract to launch a satellite – except, of course, that the Americans
stepped in and ended the party.

“It was my first trip to the US. I was met at JFK airport by a US
Air Force Space Command general and a US Air Force Space Command
colonel who asked: ‘What the hell is going on here?’” He obviously
assumed that the Russians would promptly swipe Western
satellites for their own use. The only alternative was that Ganley’s
charm had melted a hole in the Iron Curtain, but of course it hadn’t.
Russian openness to Ganley’s satellite idea was Glasnost speaking,
only the West didn’t know how to respond. “I was so naïve I didn’t
know what you couldn’t do. I didn’t care, I was having a good time,”
recalls Ganley.

I don't agree with the right-wing politics, but I'll give the man his due for what he did to pull himself up. A lot of the response to him here seems to be motivated by pure and simple begrudgery. There's very little commentary on his politics or on Lisbon, but acres of it on vague innuendo about how he came by his money. Speaks volumes to me...

Guest

Quote :: “It was my first trip to the US. I was met at JFK airport by a US
Air Force Space Command general and a US Air Force Space Command
colonel who asked: ‘What the hell is going on here?’” He obviously
assumed that the Russians would promptly swipe Western
satellites for their own use. The only alternative was that Ganley’s
charm had melted a hole in the Iron Curtain, but of course it hadn’t.
Russian openness to Ganley’s satellite idea was Glasnost speaking,
only the West didn’t know how to respond. “I was so naïve I didn’t
know what you couldn’t do. I didn’t care, I was having a good time,”
recalls Ganley.

So this was his first contact with the US military?

Guest

Auditor #9 wrote:

Quote :: I'd say a good majority of older people in
the country (particularly in the west) are very opposed to abortion. A
hostile political gossip site reports tittle-tattle from the neighbours
about this man's parents and this has what to do with anything? I
absolutely loathe Bertie Ahern, but never once have I commented upon a
member of his family as a means of attacking him.

Policy
before politics/politicians and their families please. A balance
between both would be very welcome. If there's an overhang in the one I
favour less (politicians and politics) then I'll be inclined to start
pruning posts ... snip snip

Nothing negitive said about the poor little things except they were politcally active.

toxic avenger wrote:

Frightened Albanian wrote:: ]
definately Stockholm syndrome, I sometimes feel sorry for Libertas when they do another big boo boo. I
was even feeling sorry for the ganleys until I read a comment on Bock
from a neighbour saying the parents were politically active also in the
anti abortionist movemnet when the bald one was a bog cutting lad.
the same poster says that the bold Deco took the FCA very
seriously...........so Mick McD ex of the PDs and sometime advisor to
Libertas. the two weeks man pay in the summer must have been the
thing.

Wtf is wrong with that? I'd say a good majority of older
people in the country (particularly in the west) are very opposed to
abortion. A hostile political gossip site reports tittle-tattle from
the neighbours about this man's parents and this has what to do
with anything? I absolutely loathe Bertie Ahern, but never once have I
commented upon a member of his family as a means of attacking
him.

Don't be silly if they are out there active on the front lines of the
political wheel then that is an interesting reflection, as ganners
himsalf is virtually impossible when it comes to getting straight
answers. this explains his deep in into the political force of activist
anti abortionistas. COIR etc all helped Libertas did they not, mein
toxic friend

candide wrote:

Frightened Albanian wrote:: [the bold Deco took the FCA very seriously............

Clearly. His club in London is the Naval and Military.

http://cnbceb.com/people-profiles/declan-ganley/421/

Indeed and look at what they stand for
http://peoplekorps.blogspot.com/2009/02/declan-ganleys-london-club-is-naval-and.html

toxic avenger wrote:: I don't agree with the right-wing politics, but I'll give the man his due for what he did to pull himself up. A lot of the response to him here seems to be motivated by pure and simple begrudgery. There's very little commentary on his politics or on Lisbon, but acres of it on vague innuendo about how he came by his money. Speaks volumes to me...

Oh he did pull himself up a lot all right and we still await the full stroy of how he did it. the Albanian pensioner on RTE primetime had his view on it no doubt. plus having viewed the accounts of several Ganley companies I can confirm one thing, they dont show the profit that articles like the one you refer to would have us believe.

re his politics and that would be ? we still have no manifesto. (personal remark re poster modded)

Guest

cactus flower wrote:

Quote :: “It was my first trip to the US. I was met at JFK airport by a US
Air Force Space Command general and a US Air Force Space Command
colonel who asked: ‘What the hell is going on here?’” He obviously
assumed that the Russians would promptly swipe Western
satellites for their own use. The only alternative was that Ganley’s
charm had melted a hole in the Iron Curtain, but of course it hadn’t.
Russian openness to Ganley’s satellite idea was Glasnost speaking,
only the West didn’t know how to respond. “I was so naïve I didn’t
know what you couldn’t do. I didn’t care, I was having a good time,”
recalls Ganley.

So this was his first contact with the US military?

According to declan "walter Mitty" ganley anyway. the yanks were so afraid of a guy who was insuring? copying? a corporation's idea about sending satellites to space on ex commie rockets that they sent the brass to meet him?

Or was he there to try ((mod cf)"access" to the russkis? he certainly was not adviser to the Latvian government as he claimed he was at this time. maybe they were members of Opus Dei?

Hard to know with Deco

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