Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod

So the people who helped found Libertas as a pan european party include anti-semites, homophobes and racists?

cactus flower wrote:

So the people who helped found Libertas as a pan european party include anti-semites, homophobes and racists?

The people who helped Libertas be recognised as a ligitimate party at an EU level. It's possible that they may not actually support Libertas's stance of many issues, but simply wished to help the party be recognised the need for such a party in the EU and the need for a vibrant democracy which doesn't exist in Brussels currenlty.

What has throwing acid in the faces of peaceful demonstrators got to do with vibrant democracy?

cookiemonster wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

So the people who helped found Libertas as a pan european party include anti-semites, homophobes and racists?

The people who helped Libertas be recognised as a ligitimate party at an EU level. It's possible that they may not actually support Libertas's stance of many issues, but simply wished to help the party be recognised the need for such a party in the EU and the need for a vibrant democracy which doesn't exist in Brussels currenlty.

hang on a second did the EU not just award Libertas cash to promote its platform of "ideas"? Hardly the move of an elite trying to silence opposition?

Are you also saying that Libertas don't care where their support to get the cash came from even if the people concerned had reprehensible political stances such as racisim, homophobic agitation, anti Semitism etc ?

What does that say about your party?

Frightened Albanian wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

So the people who helped found Libertas as a pan european party include anti-semites, homophobes and racists?

The people who helped Libertas be recognised as a ligitimate party at an EU level. It's possible that they may not actually support Libertas's stance of many issues, but simply wished to help the party be recognised the need for such a party in the EU and the need for a vibrant democracy which doesn't exist in Brussels currenlty.

hang on a second did the EU not just award Libertas cash to promote its platform of "ideas"? Hardly the move of an elite trying to silence opposition?

Are you also saying that Libertas don't care where their support to get the cash came from even if the people concerned had reprehensible political stances such as racisim, homophobic agitation, anti Semitism etc ?

What does that say about your party?

Libertas has stated that they will not use the money (approx €200,000) awarded with the recognition until they have a mandate from the people to do so.

cookiemonster wrote:

Frightened Albanian wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

So the people who helped found Libertas as a pan european party include anti-semites, homophobes and racists?

The people who helped Libertas be recognised as a ligitimate party at an EU level. It's possible that they may not actually support Libertas's stance of many issues, but simply wished to help the party be recognised the need for such a party in the EU and the need for a vibrant democracy which doesn't exist in Brussels currenlty.

hang on a second did the EU not just award Libertas cash to promote its platform of "ideas"? Hardly the move of an elite trying to silence opposition?

Are you also saying that Libertas don't care where their support to get the cash came from even if the people concerned had reprehensible political stances such as racisim, homophobic agitation, anti Semitism etc ?

What does that say about your party?

Libertas has stated that they will not use the money (approx €200,000) awarded with the recognition until they have a mandate from the people to do so.

Really is the money that important an issue? It was the character of the politics that FA was asking about.

that is not what you were asked you were asked about Libertas accepting support from the far right to get money

cactus flower wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

Frightened Albanian wrote:

cookiemonster wrote:

cactus flower wrote:

So the people who helped found Libertas as a pan european party include anti-semites, homophobes and racists?

The people who helped Libertas be recognised as a ligitimate party at an EU level. It's possible that they may not actually support Libertas's stance of many issues, but simply wished to help the party be recognised the need for such a party in the EU and the need for a vibrant democracy which doesn't exist in Brussels currenlty.

hang on a second did the EU not just award Libertas cash to promote its platform of "ideas"? Hardly the move of an elite trying to silence opposition?

Are you also saying that Libertas don't care where their support to get the cash came from even if the people concerned had reprehensible political stances such as racisim, homophobic agitation, anti Semitism etc ?

What does that say about your party?

Libertas has stated that they will not use the money (approx €200,000) awarded with the recognition until they have a mandate from the people to do so.

Really is the money that important an issue? It was the character of the politics that FA was asking about.

Do you have a problem which makes you put words in my mouth? Because you keep doing it. Knock it off.

You are making no sense but you evade questions about their policies and Libertas'

And it is suggested some people here are conspiracy theorists....

Quote :

LIBERTAS WAS “formally recognised as a political party against the best efforts by Brussels”, the group’s founder Declan Ganley has said. He “had been reliably told” that officials in Brussels were instructed to find one comma out of place, one “i” not dotted, he said.

Two supporters in eastern Europe had been “nobbled” he said, “but there were plenty of others”.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0209/1233867926979.html

their full statement demonstrates wild parania. Especially ironic as they had just be accepted to get cash from the EU

Quote :

This is the Libertas statement: demonstrates advanced state of their paranoia


MORE INTIMIDATION OF LIBERTAS SIGNATORIES
Mr.
Mintcho Hristov Kuminev, a Member of the Bulgarian Parliament, has
claimed not to have signed Libertas's application to become a European
political party. This is untrue. Mr. Kuminev has consciously and kindly
signed this document at the request of Libertas. The document, together
with the required copy of Mr. Kuminev's passport and his member's pass
for the Bulgarian parliament, is in our possession and we invite any
interested party to view it. It might be a coincidence or it might be a
concerted effort to intimidate or otherwise influence those who
expressly support the
advancement of democracy, that this is the
second Libertas signatory who feels they must now distance themselves
from their actions. We appreciate that they both gave us their initial
support. We deplore the corrupt,dishonest and anti-democratic forces
that are pushing them to renounce their support. We are mildly amused
that the other Libertas signatories have not been persuaded to suffer
from amnesia. Libertas will provide over and above the required number
of signatures in spite of - and partially as a result of - this
blatantly anti-democratic campaign to undermine the first truly
pan-European party. We will succeed in our campaign of democracy,
accountability and transparency. Voters across the 27 Member States
should draw the clear message that these anti-democratic elites do not
so much fear Libertas as fear the will of 500 million Europeans.
Libertas looks forward to being being a catalyst for change - change
that is sorely needed in a corrupt and unaccountable system. The people
of Europe have had enough. Libertas will find tooth and nail to defend
democracy for those who support us and for those who do not. For
further information: Anita Kelly libertas.eu

Link
MORE INTIMIDATION OF LIBERTAS SIGNATORIES

Libertas gets paranoid and dirty

More statements from Libertas

Quote :

STATEMENT BY DECLAN GANLEY

"The
Liberal group in the Parliament have apparently, over the past 48
hours, engaged in the most reprehensible bullying and dishonesty.

They
appear to have misled in order to embarrass and discredit an honourable
man, and in order to subvert the very processes that are in place to
protect the people of Europe and their democratic representatives.

Because
they have by all accounts engaged in this behaviour, Libertas has no
option but to publish photos of Mr. Grazin's signature, and a photocopy
of his passport.

We have engaged with this process in good
faith. It is beyond disgusting that there are elements in the European
Parliament, elected to serve the people of Europe, who seem more
interested in using filthy and underhanded political smears to damage
those who question them than they are in furthering democracy.

It
is particularly telling that Graham Watson MEP, leader of the Liberals,
would welcome Libertas with one hand, and yet people in his grouping
apparently try to destroy the good name of one of our signatories with
the other. Mr. Watson and his acolyte, Mr. Duff, should resign their
positions immediately following this smear.

Libertas will
respond to this by taking out adverts in the constituencies of Mr.
Watson and Mr. Duff, letting the people who elected them know the
manner in which they do business.

Because of this incident, a
good public servant's name has been dragged through the mud, and his
career damaged. In all my years in the business world, I have never
seen something so disgusting".

STATEMENT BY KEVIN O'CONNELL

"For
an individual to come under the amount of pressure apparently exerted
on Mr. Grazin over the 72 hours or so since his name became public is
deeply troubling. Mr. Grazin took his decision in good faith, and has
now been subjected to a witch hunt by the Liberal leader and his
acolytes. The destruction of this good man's name by a partisan
grouping within the EU parliament does not bear the hallmark of a
civilized democracy.

Rather, these are the tactics of a
manipulative, possibly corrupt, enterprise. In my many years of public
service to the people of Europe, I have never been more convinced of
the need for a total change of leadership within the European Union".

Images have been uploaded to Flickr -

This all is very strange paranoid and very disturbing as Libertas published private documents and address of the MP

Ganley speaking at the week end stated his oppsotion to abortion and gay marriage and that the EU tried to nobble Libertas's attempts to get recognition

Quote :

At a religious conference this weekend, Libertas’s founder spoke on the EU, abortion and same-sex marriage LIBERTAS
WAS “formally recognised as a political party against the best efforts
by Brussels”, the group’s founder Declan Ganley has said. He “had been
reliably told” that officials in Brussels were instructed to find one
comma out of place, one “i” not dotted, he said. Two supporters in eastern Europe had been “nobbled” he said, “but there were plenty of others”. The party was now recognised in all 27 EU countries, he said, and referred delegates to its website www.libertas.eu. Mr
Ganley was speaking in a panel discussion at a conference in
Ballaghaderreen, Co Roscommon, at the weekend. It was organised by the
Catholic John Paul II Society and co-hosted by the pro-life Human Life
International group. Mr Ganley was responding to a question from the
floor as to whether he was setting up a political party. He also
assured delegates of his opposition to abortion and same-sex marriage,
referring to earlier opening remarks in which he quoted from Pope
Benedict’s recent encyclicals, Deus Caritas Est and Spe Salvi, “with
their message of God’s love”. Reflecting on Ireland’s history he
continued, “our faith and our rights are strong today because we have
suffered the yoke of oppression . . . we grew stronger and we grew
free”. He queried whether “we have lost something” and noted the
address of the pope at St Peter’s Basilica in Rome immediately prior to
his election in April 2005. There, the pope criticised a “dictatorship
of moral relativism . . . in a world where faith in God is seen as a
threat”, Mr Ganley said. He went on to criticise “a media
obsessed with breaking down the domestic church . . . and the family”
and reminded delegates that “the essence of our faith is that all life
is sacred”. He concluded: “Yes we must, we must take risks for truth.” In
the later question-and-answer session, he said any guarantees given by
the EU on social and ethical issues “were not worth the paper they are
written on”, where the European Court of Justice was concerned. He
continued that: “the laws of the union have primacy over the laws of
any member state . . . If there is a conflict, union law rules.” He
continued: “I have been called a liar, a murderer, an arms dealer, a
CIA agent, a KGB agent – all of those things, all are filthy lies, but
even if [such things were true] it doesn’t change the truth of what we
are saying is in this treaty.” He said that on average more than
80 laws a year came from Brussels. However, he also warned one should
“never become a Eurosceptic”. The EU, he said, was “a lesson learned
from the bloodfest suffered on this continent for hundreds of years”. All
had been touched by it, including families such as his own and his
wife’s. “The miracle of [the European Union] is that it has ended [the
violence and war that] was on the European continent and so is
deserving of our support.” However, he continued, “for it to succeed, its legitimacy and its vitality has to come from you”. The
problem was, he said, that “the Brussels elite holds you in contempt .
. . telling you to vote again. They told the French, the Dutch, and now
you, to vote again . . . taking us for absolute fools, uninformed
idiots.” Ireland, he said, “made the most pro-European statement
[in rejecting the Lisbon Treaty]. We want Europe to be strong, but it
is also going to be accountable.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0209/1233867926979.html

Frightened Albanian wrote:

Ganley speaking at the week end stated his oppsotion to abortion and gay marriage and that the EU tried to nobble Libertas's attempts to get recognition

Quote :

At a religious conference this weekend, Libertas’s founder spoke on the EU, abortion and same-sex marriage LIBERTAS
WAS “formally recognised as a political party against the best efforts
by Brussels”, the group’s founder Declan Ganley has said. He “had been
reliably told” that officials in Brussels were instructed to find one
comma out of place, one “i” not dotted, he said. Two supporters in eastern Europe had been “nobbled” he said, “but there were plenty of others”. The party was now recognised in all 27 EU countries, he said, and referred delegates to its website www.libertas.eu. Mr
Ganley was speaking in a panel discussion at a conference in
Ballaghaderreen, Co Roscommon, at the weekend. It was organised by the
Catholic John Paul II Society and co-hosted by the pro-life Human Life
International group. Mr Ganley was responding to a question from the
floor as to whether he was setting up a political party. He also
assured delegates of his opposition to abortion and same-sex marriage,
referring to earlier opening remarks in which he quoted from Pope
Benedict’s recent encyclicals, Deus Caritas Est and Spe Salvi, “with
their message of God’s love”. Reflecting on Ireland’s history he
continued, “our faith and our rights are strong today because we have
suffered the yoke of oppression . . . we grew stronger and we grew
free”. He queried whether “we have lost something” and noted the
address of the pope at St Peter’s Basilica in Rome immediately prior to
his election in April 2005. There, the pope criticised a “dictatorship
of moral relativism . . . in a world where faith in God is seen as a
threat”, Mr Ganley said. He went on to criticise “a media
obsessed with breaking down the domestic church . . . and the family”
and reminded delegates that “the essence of our faith is that all life
is sacred”. He concluded: “Yes we must, we must take risks for truth.” In
the later question-and-answer session, he said any guarantees given by
the EU on social and ethical issues “were not worth the paper they are
written on”, where the European Court of Justice was concerned. He
continued that: “the laws of the union have primacy over the laws of
any member state . . . If there is a conflict, union law rules.” He
continued: “I have been called a liar, a murderer, an arms dealer, a
CIA agent, a KGB agent – all of those things, all are filthy lies, but
even if [such things were true] it doesn’t change the truth of what we
are saying is in this treaty.” He said that on average more than
80 laws a year came from Brussels. However, he also warned one should
“never become a Eurosceptic”. The EU, he said, was “a lesson learned
from the bloodfest suffered on this continent for hundreds of years”. All
had been touched by it, including families such as his own and his
wife’s. “The miracle of [the European Union] is that it has ended [the
violence and war that] was on the European continent and so is
deserving of our support.” However, he continued, “for it to succeed, its legitimacy and its vitality has to come from you”. The
problem was, he said, that “the Brussels elite holds you in contempt .
. . telling you to vote again. They told the French, the Dutch, and now
you, to vote again . . . taking us for absolute fools, uninformed
idiots.” Ireland, he said, “made the most pro-European statement
[in rejecting the Lisbon Treaty]. We want Europe to be strong, but it
is also going to be accountable.”

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2009/0209/1233867926979.html

I agree with all of that, he's quite right, on the right to life, on gay marriage (although I don't see him quoted on it), on moral relativism, and on the Catholic-bashing agenda of the liberal trendies in Donnybrook. All good. Apart from the 'never become a Eurosceptic' bit. That was bad advice.

Quote :

LIBERTAS was “formally recognised as a political party against the best efforts
by Brussels”, the group’s founder Declan Ganley has said. He “had been reliably told” that officials in Brussels were instructed to find one comma out of place, one “i” not dotted, he said.

That's very sad - I mean, the EU does that for grant applications. I'm sorry to say it isn't evidence of exciting conspiracies - particularly since many people would consider the withdrawal of two of your required 'supporters' as something more than a 'comma out of place', in spite of which Libertas are still registered. Where, though, would Libertas be without it's exciting narrative of obstacles and elite conspiracies overcome by Action Ganley and his team?

Still, people believe they're not allowed straight bananas either, despite the rather compelling evidence available in every supermarket, so I imagine there's those will swallow this latest.

Frightened Albanian wrote:

/>STATEMENT BY DECLAN GANLEY

"The
Liberal group in the Parliament have apparently, over the past 48
hours, engaged in the most reprehensible bullying and dishonesty.

They
appear to have misled in order to embarrass and discredit an honourable
man, and in order to subvert the very processes that are in place to
protect the people of Europe and their democratic representatives.

Because
they have by all accounts engaged in this behaviour, Libertas has no
option but to publish photos of Mr. Grazin's signature, and a photocopy
of his passport.

If this is true, why doesn't Libertas just publish the document that Grazin is supposed to have signed in Brussels, under the watchful eye of Bonde? The document on the Flickr site appears to have been signed in Tallinn in October last year.

Quote :

Toxic avenger said : I agree with all of that, he's quite right, on
the right to life, on gay marriage (although I don't see him quoted on
it), on moral relativism, and on the Catholic-bashing agenda of the
liberal trendies in Donnybrook. All good. Apart from the 'never become
a Eurosceptic' bit. That was bad advice.

Toxic interesting to see the edifice of nuetrality finally dropping off. You agree with Ganley's moral crusade. That explains your postings however in future the pretence of nuetrality should be dropped when you are defending Libertas spearchuckers like Cochrane and Cookie.


FA you have been warned already to discuss the issues and not individuals. Please do as you're told. Kate P/Mod

The Philosphical Society in TCD has a gig this week featuring "MEP
candidate for Dublin Caroline Simons" and former pres of France Giscard d'Estaing

Simons is not listed as a Libertas hack on the poster> Does D'Estang
who last week said ganley was dishonest know that she is a Libertasista?

Anyway
perhaps we can have a machinenation get together Thursday 7.30pm GMB
Trinity. No doubt Cookie/Cochrane and the gang will be there.

Frightened Albanian wrote:

Quote :

Toxic avenger said : I agree with all of that, he's quite right, on
the right to life, on gay marriage (although I don't see him quoted on
it), on moral relativism, and on the Catholic-bashing agenda of the
liberal trendies in Donnybrook. All good. Apart from the 'never become
a Eurosceptic' bit. That was bad advice.

Toxic interesting to see the edifice of nuetrality finally dropping off. You agree with Ganley's moral crusade. That explains your postings however in future the pretence of nuetrality should be dropped when you are defending Libertas spearchuckers like Cochrane and Cookie.

There's no edifice of neutrality, I've never been neutral. I oppose Lisbon. I'm a practising Catholic. I think Ganley is spot on in his beliefs about relativism and abortion, neither of which has anything to do with religion or Lisbon. I oppose Ganley on federalism and on his stone age beliefs on industrial relations. They would seem to be right wing, I would be regarded as fairly left. I support Kathy Sinnott for the Euros, I'd vote for her over everyone, including Libertas, any day. And I'd vote for UKIP over Libertas in Britain, despite them tending to be further right too. What's new in any of that?

Can you get any facts straight at all?

Frightened Albanian wrote:

The Philosphical Society in TCD has a gig this week featuring "MEP
candidate for Dublin Caroline Simons" and former pres of France Giscard d'Estaing

Caroline Simons is not an MEP Candidate.

Quote :

Simons is not listed as a Libertas hack on the poster> Does D'Estang
who last week said ganley was dishonest know that she is a Libertasista?

Libertas representitive is mentioned on the Phil's official calendar listing here: http://www.tcdphil.com/calendar.php

Well she is listed as an MEP Candidate on the poster and there is no mention of Libertas there.
maybe she is making a solo run and has not told ganley and you?

Will you be there Cookie?

Frightened Albanian wrote:

Well she is listed as an MEP Candidate on the poster and there is no mention of Libertas there.
maybe she is making a solo run and has not told ganley and you?

Will you be there Cookie?

Of course I'll be there.

Should we send along a referee and some heavies?

Seriously, I hope the fuzz have spotted this potential conflict between Albania and Sesame Street. The word "tinderbox" springs to mind:).

Zhou_Enlai wrote:

Should we send along a referee and some heavies?

Seriously, I hope the fuzz have spotted this potential conflict between Albania and Sesame Street. The word "tinderbox" springs to mind:).

There will be security there.

cookiemonster wrote:

Zhou_Enlai wrote:

Should we send along a referee and some heavies?

Seriously, I hope the fuzz have spotted this potential conflict between Albania and Sesame Street. The word "tinderbox" springs to mind:).

There will be security there.

You mean securocrats...

* Runs for cover *