Libertas a pan European Project : Read OP Intro Carefully - Mod

Cookiemonster said

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Libertas is a political party, empowered by votes collected democratically.

I thought perhaps you were referring to the process of collecting "signatories" for the EU funding application.

So which policies will you be rooting for in your area Cookiemonster ?

johnfás wrote:

You didn't really, you spoke about a democratic mandate in your initial clarification whereas in your initial response you spoke of the Libertas Party being "empowered", which I assume is different to a mandate, from votes collected democratically, which presumably implies already.

Ok, let me be very clear. Libertas intends to run candidates in the upcoming European elections. Should their candidates be elected they will be empowered to carry out the policies promoted by Libertas prior to the election.

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Right, so the central aim of the candidate must be to ensure greater democracy, accountability and transparency in Europe. However, I would point out that these are structural rather than policy, social or economic based issues. Assuming what you ay above is accurate, is it then the policy of Libertas to allow individual candidates to establish individual and jurisdiction specific policies regarding issues of social and economic concern? This, lack of a whip, for want of a better word, seems to detract from the idea of a Pan European Party. I would have thought that any such undertaking would also have a consolidated direction on issues social, political and economic. No?

Libertas intends to be a pan-European political party with pan-European focus on it's policies which will be revealed in March. Like any party it's candidates or elected reps will have local issues which they will deal with subject to the rules and approval of the rest of their party.

Here's quite a long interview with Ganley which may explain things better than a tried CookieMonster ever could. http://www.euractiv.com/en/eu-elections/ganley-germany-enormous-potential-libertas/article-179367

cactus flower wrote:

Cookiemonster said

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Libertas is a political party, empowered by votes collected democratically.

I thought perhaps you were referring to the process of collecting "signatories" for the EU funding application.

That process has been suspended, Cactus Flower.

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So which policies will you be rooting for in your area Cookiemonster ?

Hopefully none.

cookiemonster wrote:

Libertas intends to be a pan-European political party with pan-European focus on it's policies which will be revealed in March. Like any party it's candidates or elected reps will have local issues which they will deal with subject to the rules and approval of the rest of their party.

Again that slightly dodges the question. You state that Libertas' policies concern democracy, transparency and accountability in the European Union. Each of these issues is structural, they are concerned about the process by which the European Union comes to its decisions and conclusions rather than the decisions themselves. The structure of the Union cannot be an end in itself. Again, will Libertas also have social, political and economic policies or will they be left to individual candidates to decide for themselves? If Libertas has such policies, will they also be released for public consumption in March?

johnfás wrote:

Again, will Libertas also have social, political and economic policies or will they be left to individual candidates to decide for themselves? If Libertas has such policies, will they also be released for public consumption in March?

We'll see in March and/or when candidates are announced.

So Libertas has not decided yet if it is going to have any social or economic policies? Assuming (for a moment) that Libertas were to achieve all the structural agenda, which seems to be the only agenda, according to you anyway, that they have at the moment, where are we supposed to go from there?

johnfás wrote:

So Libertas has not decided yet if it is going to have any social or economic policies? Assuming (for a moment) that Libertas were to achieve all the structural agenda, which seems to be the only agenda, according to you anyway, that they have at the moment, where are we supposed to go from there?

Policy and candidates will be announced in March and Libertas as it intends to put itself to teh electorate will be revealed then.

Right, that is a no comment then. However, the fact remains that you have stated the policy of Libertas is to achieve greater democracy, accountability and transparence in Europe - structural issues. You are happy to discuss this. However, when I challenge you on the additional issues, those which you might term real issues which affect the electorate you shy away from answering the question. In short, from reading this discussion one would have to be of the opinion that Libertas has no policies beyond those concerning structural issues. That is certainly the impression you have given anyway.

johnfás wrote:

Right, that is a no comment then. However, the fact remains that you have stated the policy of Libertas is to achieve greater democracy, accountability and transparence in Europe - structural issues. You are happy to discuss this. However, when I challenge you on the additional issues, those which you might term real issues which affect the electorate you shy away from answering the question. In short, from reading this discussion one would have to be of the opinion that Libertas has no policies beyond those concerning structural issues. That is certainly the impression you have given anyway.

If that's what you take from it then fair enough.

Well to be honest I would rather be enlightened as to what the social, political and economic policies of Libertas are, but you don't leave me with any other option really. The nearest you come to it is an implication that candidates will be able to choose their own policies in this regard. Surely this is of concern given that one candidate might run on a radically different platform to another whilst both seeking the structural changes the organisation wants, which are the only policies you are prepared to discuss or even cite as existing.

johnfás wrote:

Well to be honest I would rather be enlightened as to what the social, political and economic policies of Libertas are, but you don't leave me with any other option really.

Your wish will be granted in March.

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The nearest you come to it is an implication that candidates will be able to choose their own policies in this regard.

I said: "If the candidates are existing political figures (either Local, National or MEP) then it would be unfair to make them cast aside the issues on which they have focused throughout their careers."

Right, so you might have a communist in one country and a lover of the policies of Alan Greenspan in another and that provided each of these had focused their careers on these issues they will be consolidated under the Libertas banner? How then does the Libertas organisation seek to function in a relevant way, assuming (for a moment) that the structural changes they all agree on are implemented. You see it seems to me that the structural changes are the core emphasis of Libertas and that all else is secondary. You have not yet shown any evidence that the contrary is the case. If this is the case I don't see how Libertas would constitute a Pan European Party but rather a lobby group which would outlive its usefulness once the structural agenda is achieved. I would hope that is not the case but you have provided little evidence that the contrary is the case and you have in fact supported the hypothesis, through your statements on policy, that it is.

johnfás wrote:

Right, so you might have a communist in one country and a lover of the policies of Alan Greenspan in another and that provided each of these had focused their careers on these issues they will be consolidated under the Libertas banner? How then does the Libertas organisation seek to function in a relevant way, assuming (for a moment) that the structural changes they all agree on are implemented. You see it seems to me that the structural changes are the core emphasis of Libertas and that all else is secondary. You have not yet shown any evidence that the contrary is the case. If this is the case I don't see how Libertas would constitute a Pan European Party but rather a lobby group which would outlive its usefulness once the structural agenda is achieved. I would hope that is not the case but you have provided little evidence that the contrary is the case and you have in fact supported the hypothesis, through your statements on policy, that it is.

Question: You say Libertas is an anti-Lisbon, yet pro-European party. What are your main policy issues apart from opposition to the Lisbon Treaty?

Answer: We're going to be publishing a detailed policy document in March which will lay out our policies in a very wide range of areas. The issue of democracy is not some small thing – it's huge, it's central, it's pivotal.

That, and this economy: come June, we are facing an economic hurricane across Europe, and people are slowly starting to realise that the very policies and leaders that have got us into this economic mess – which is only going to get worse – are the same leaders who are telling voters that this anti-democratic constitution is something that's good for them.

Stimulating Europe to be the predominant economic leader in the world, second only to nobody, is not going to come by chucking good money after bad, or flogging the taxpayers until they can't breathe anymore.

more: http://www.euractiv.com/en/eu-elections/ganley-germany-enormous-potential-libertas/article-179367

1) I didn't say that issues regarding democracy are small. I didn't say they were not pivotal. I merely stated that you have not stated a policy aside from such issues. There are other areas concerning the polity of equal merit.

2) You initially refused to state that the March document will outline policies on a wide range of areas. In fact you were incredibly reticent to give us any inkling of what would be in it beyond issues of, quote, democracy, transparency and accountability. We have made a start now by your statement that other policies will be outlined, will you give us a broad overview of what sort of issues beyond this will be address in this document.

I'm more than happy to hear of all the policies Libertas has to offer. I am also more than happy to give them consideration because the election of MEPs is radically separate to the Treaty Referendum. However, you have been less than forthcoming, thus far, on any issue beyond, quote, democracy, transparencey and accountability. That concerns me and would draw me away from giving any preference to a Libertas candidate.

Perhaps you might make a fresh start and now outline a broad overview of the political, economic and social policies which will form the basis of the consolidated policies of the Pan European Party that each candidate would be expected to adhere to. I am happy to wait until March to get the nitty gritty details but I don't think it is asking too much to be given a brief overview immediately. I mean, we are to assume that broad policy overviews in each area have been determined, right?

Johnfas, I've been working on what is sure to be a grueling and hopefully (just short of ) hour long presentation tomorrow at which I will be grilled, questioned and no doubt be torn apart by some of the smartest people in the country as far as the subject in which I am speaking is concerned.

I am sorry if my answers here have not been as detailed as you like and I am sorry if I have failed to answer every issue you've brought up. But thankfully this isn't Questions and Answers and nor am I a spokeperson for Libertas. I am a supporter who is not trying to promote Libertas on this website (I'd be shocked if one other poster apart from myself voted for Libertas). I came here to get a break from what I was doing but inevitabally endedup defending Libertas against lies from the likes of Frightened Albanian and the weird east-german fantasy Libertas constructed by Cactus Flower.

It's not my place nor my job to reveal policy here or anywhere. Keep a look out in March when Libertas launches it's policies and it's candidates, all your questions will be answered then.

Cookiemonster, if you want to claim a poster is lying, please have the goodness to substantiate it, or othewise withdraw it.

Heres a whopper Cookie did people korps steal this from your blog?

It seems two nexw websites and two new leaflets appeared at the Caroline simons D'Estaing debate last week. Cookie you never told us about this

People Korps blog links from headline below

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Monday, February 16, 2009

Lisbon 2 campaign begins with dishonest leaflet campaign
The Lisbon 2 campaign was launched on Thursady last in Dublin at a
debate at Trinity College between Valéry Giscard D’Estaing and among
others Libertas's Caroline Simons. One leaflet distribted ion the night
included the same smear that Libertas employed during the Lisbon 1
referendum campaign over which D'Estaing branded Ganley dishonest only

FA, I can see no evidence of any kind to connect this with Libertas.

The same quote Ganley used is on one of the leaflets and the other has direct linbks to COIR. I am sure there will never be a direct link to Libertas established yet it smells of their previous carry on using COIR and this also includes two different wiedo websites..................The duel begins

cookiemonster wrote:

johnfás wrote:

Well to be honest I would rather be enlightened as to what the social, political and economic policies of Libertas are, but you don't leave me with any other option really.

Your wish will be granted in March.

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The nearest you come to it is an implication that candidates will be able to choose their own policies in this regard.

I said: "If the candidates are existing political figures (either Local, National or MEP) then it would be unfair to make them cast aside the issues on which they have focused throughout their careers."

Beware the Ides of march cookie.
are you really saying that loads of people will run on their mad platforms with a nod to a few core Libertas issues (to be announced 25 March in Rome on the 52nd anniversary of the signing of the Treaty of Rome and then after they get elected Grunden Ganley will tell them what to do?

FYI Libertas Nein Danke is asking for Catholics to write to the pope and ask him not to meet Ganley at that time. here

cactus flower wrote:

Cookiemonster, if you want to claim a poster is lying, please have the goodness to substantiate it, or othewise withdraw it.

I did. I replied with the relevant text which clarified the intent of what Frightened Albanian was misquoting,

Frightened Albanian wrote:

Heres a whopper Cookie did people korps steal this from your blog?

It seems two nexw websites and two new leaflets appeared at the Caroline simons D'Estaing debate last week. Cookie you never told us about this

People Korps blog links from headline below

Quote :

Monday, February 16, 2009

Lisbon 2 campaign begins with dishonest leaflet campaign
The Lisbon 2 campaign was launched on Thursady last in Dublin at a
debate at Trinity College between Valéry Giscard D’Estaing and among
others Libertas's Caroline Simons. One leaflet distribted ion the night
included the same smear that Libertas employed during the Lisbon 1
referendum campaign over which D'Estaing branded Ganley dishonest only

That leaflet has nothing to do with Libertas.

Writing to the Pope to ask him not to meet Ganley? Are you a practising Catholic? Do you think that perhaps you are entering the territory labelled borderline stalking? What business is it of yours whether a practising Catholic has a private audience with the Pope?

This thread in itself is becoming something like a harangue of one poster. 'Answer this, NOW, you have no right not to!' seems to be the stock response. What the hell is up with that? Why do certain people seem to become highly agitated in this way, can't we just discuss politics and policies, instead of taking it all so... personally?...

toxic avenger wrote:

Writing to the Pope to ask him not to meet Ganley? Are you a practising Catholic? Do you think that perhaps you are entering the territory labelled borderline stalking? What business is it of yours whether a practising Catholic has a private audience with the Pope?

This thread in itself is becoming something like a harangue of one poster. 'Answer this, NOW, you have no right not to!' seems to be the stock response. What the hell is up with that? Why do certain people seem to become highly agitated in this way, can't we just discuss politics and policies, instead of taking it all so... personally?...

Stalking? Substantiate that harrassment of a poster AT ONCE! Never mind I've just likened you to the Gestapo!

The writing to the pope thing is gas though.

I can't vouch for PK but I am certainly a Catholic.