'Massive strike shuts down France'

eoinmn wrote:

Hermes, I support the right of people to strike and to join unions.
I have done neither though.

My father was a member of one of those small transport unions for decades, and that union rarely striked, even when the other CIE unions did. And he was happy with that because he felt that the train drivers, etc, were well paid and too quick to strike.

The train driver's unions do turn people like myself off unions. Similarly, the teacher's unions who have hinted recently they will strike over a cut in their pay.. but not over a cut in class sizes.

Look at benchmarking to; a complete farce. I felt public servants, who were earning more than their counterparts in the private sector, were paranoid and bitter.. they foolishly wanted parity with the private sector. So benchmarking was born and the taxpayer was conned. People were given pay rises without any increase in responsibility or productivity and now in a recession what of benchmarking? Parity goes out the window!!! If we had parity then hundreds of public servants would be getting let go every month, to mirror what is happening in Dell and the construction industry, etc. But it turns out the calls for "parity" was just a con job.

When I find a union who I can respect, like one right now that calls for large wage cuts, I'll join, and yes, I'll take the cuts.

Back in the late 80's, when the ESB was on strike, I was a lowly apprentice. I was a member of the trade union. The strike ended with the wage increases that had been demanded and an agreement signed by the union, that its members would not and could not strike again. I left the union that very day and have never joined nor trusted another since.

That being said, two of the people that have influenced my life most were both electricians and both were shop stewards. Both of them, in their own unique ways, set the foundation for what are now my views and beliefs on rights, freedoms, dignity and self respect. They were both between a rock and a hard place with regard to the agreement. They both stayed on as union members and shop stewards. Unions, as an idea and an ideal, are a fine notion and are mostly peopled by decent and caring human beings, who sacrifice much for their fellow workers. It's the shite that floats to the top, that is the absolute ruination of unions in Ireland, and elsewhere.

I hear what you're saying about benchmarking and to a small degree I agree with you. In the early 90's I walked away from a trade that I loved and still miss to this day. I walked away because it was filling up with cretins who didn't have a clue as to what they were doing. The quality of electrical work hit rock bottom and still hasn't even started to recover. Absolute scum organisations like RECI sprung up and began, like the mafia, to strong arm their way into the business. Today, one needs a RECI cert to even get a completion certificate for wiring a house. RECI didn't train me and indeed my training is and was vastly superior to the majority of tools who work for them. So I left and found a new profession but I cannot say that I don't have regrets.

You make a point about teachers - that they'd strike for money but not for the welfare of children. That's a charge I hear often. Methinks that it's become ingrained in this country to believe that only teachers have responsibility for the welfare of children. What other group of caring adults, who are very willing to point an accusing finger, have threatened to withold their labour to ensure the well being of the children that they themselves have created? Much simpler to blame teachers for our collective sin in this instance imo. Sometimes the mirror does not paint a pretty picture.

Often too, we hear that Irish teachers are paid more than teachers in the rest of Europe and indeed the world at large. Nobody answers this with what is the proper and logical answer. Essential services, food and property cost much more here than anywhere else. And when you compare these prices with what Irish teachers earn you see that they are one of the worst paid groups of teachers on the face of the earth. If only these parity studies were conducted for a useful purpose and not worthless propaganda...

Who benchmarks the benchmarkers? And shouldn't they lose their jobs?

Pay cuts? No bloody way. Let's see an end to the extortion practiced by big business instead. Let's see some forced parity in the pricing of essentials, or, fuck it, parity in all pricing. Let's see a cap on profits and profiteering. There'll be no need for paycuts then.

Hermes wrote:

Often too, we hear that Irish teachers are paid more than teachers in the rest of Europe and indeed the world at large. Nobody answers this with what is the proper and logical answer. Essential services, food and property cost much more here than anywhere else. And when you compare these prices with what Irish teachers earn you see that they are one of the worst paid groups of teachers on the face of the earth. If only these parity studies were conducted for a useful purpose and not worthless propaganda....

Not only that, but when you take into account the very low tax teachers (and everyone else) pay here and compare their take home pay and purchasing power with all other teachers on the face of the earth you would find that they are right up there with the very best paid teachers in the world, but as you say, why take everything into account when there is so much propaganda value to be had by taking a selective view.

Hermes wrote:

...
You make a point about teachers - that they'd strike for money but not for the welfare of children. That's a charge I hear often. Methinks that it's become ingrained in this country to believe that only teachers have responsibility for the welfare of children. What other group of caring adults, who are very willing to point an accusing finger, have threatened to withold their labour to ensure the well being of the children that they themselves have created? Much simpler to blame teachers for our collective sin in this instance imo. Sometimes the mirror does not paint a pretty picture. ...

I think I'm closer to eoinmn than to you on this one Hermes. By all means let the teachers strike if they feel their appalling terms and conditions merit such action, but I'd expect them to have the gumption to admit that it is purely their pay packets that interest them. Too often they wrap their issues in a thick blanket of "won''t someone please think of the children" when they have never taken industrial action on any issue other than pay. I've no doubt there are dozens if not hundreds of schools in the country where conditions are so bad as to constitute a health and safety concern (damp, leaky, rat infested portabkabins, mucky fields as playgrounds etc) where they'd be more than justifed to strike to force investment in new buildings and facilities, but this has never happened. But if it is suggested that teachers take a 10% paycut, all of a sudden they start muttering about strikes.

Strike if you like lads, but spare us the crocodile tears about the thrid world conditions our children have endured all through the boom, when yous were queued up at Uncle Joe's ATM.

tonys wrote:

Hermes wrote:

Often too, we hear that Irish teachers are paid more than teachers in the rest of Europe and indeed the world at large. Nobody answers this with what is the proper and logical answer. Essential services, food and property cost much more here than anywhere else. And when you compare these prices with what Irish teachers earn you see that they are one of the worst paid groups of teachers on the face of the earth. If only these parity studies were conducted for a useful purpose and not worthless propaganda....

Not only that, but when you take into account the very low tax teachers (and everyone else) pay here and compare their take home pay and purchasing power with all other teachers on the face of the earth you would find that they are right up there with the very best paid teachers in the world, but as you say, why take everything into account when there is so much propaganda value to be had by taking a selective view.

I totally disagree. And one cannot focus on any particular issue without being selective to some degree. As to whether this selectiveness amounts to false propaganda is entirely another matter.

Let's look at the price of food in Ireland. You can pay close to three times for a piece of meat in the Republic, compared to what you pay in the North. Property's the same. Look at the price of a car, even a second hand one. How much is a bus ticket here, compared to the North. And let's not forget that the North is no angel with regard to its pricing.

Are teachers earning three times more here in the Republic than they are in the North? Are they earning double? Are they fuck...

Comparing wages between countries is a worthless task when one does not even begin to consider the cost of existing. Throw in the shite services that are mostly non existent and you end up with a State that is capable of outputting nothing but cheap and overt propaganda and begging parasites to come and feed off its citizens. I say cut the price comparisons altogether and use profitibility instead as a marker to define fairness. No fat cat bastards are in danger of starving or losing their homes. Let's see some parity on that and then we'll talk about propaganda.

How's that for being selective?

coc wrote:

Hermes wrote:

...
You make a point about teachers - that they'd strike for money but not for the welfare of children. That's a charge I hear often. Methinks that it's become ingrained in this country to believe that only teachers have responsibility for the welfare of children. What other group of caring adults, who are very willing to point an accusing finger, have threatened to withold their labour to ensure the well being of the children that they themselves have created? Much simpler to blame teachers for our collective sin in this instance imo. Sometimes the mirror does not paint a pretty picture. ...

I think I'm closer to eoinmn than to you on this one Hermes. By all means let the teachers strike if they feel their appalling terms and conditions merit such action, but I'd expect them to have the gumption to admit that it is purely their pay packets that interest them. Too often they wrap their issues in a thick blanket of "won''t someone please think of the children" when they have never taken industrial action on any issue other than pay. I've no doubt there are dozens if not hundreds of schools in the country where conditions are so bad as to constitute a health and safety concern (damp, leaky, rat infested portabkabins, mucky fields as playgrounds etc) where they'd be more than justifed to strike to force investment in new buildings and facilities, but this has never happened. But if it is suggested that teachers take a 10% paycut, all of a sudden they start muttering about strikes.

Strike if you like lads, but spare us the crocodile tears about the thrid world conditions our children have endured all through the boom, when yous were queued up at Uncle Joe's ATM.

I'm not really trying to paint teachers as saints and angels. Self interest is endemic in this country and that's the point I'm looking at, teachers are no more immune to this than any other party. We owe our children much more than this and they are our collective responsibility. Scapegoating a particular group merely puts off dealing with the issue imo.

Having said that, and seeing that unions are the focus, let me say that off all the unions that I think of as being useless, I rank the various teacher's unions up there at the very top. But again, I don't see our problems as being the singular property of any particular union or group of them. They are collective problems and they are the domain that the collective must claim, bear responsibility for, and fix.

Hermes wrote:

tonys wrote:

Hermes wrote:

Often too, we hear that Irish teachers are paid more than teachers in the rest of Europe and indeed the world at large. Nobody answers this with what is the proper and logical answer. Essential services, food and property cost much more here than anywhere else. And when you compare these prices with what Irish teachers earn you see that they are one of the worst paid groups of teachers on the face of the earth. If only these parity studies were conducted for a useful purpose and not worthless propaganda....

Not only that, but when you take into account the very low tax teachers (and everyone else) pay here and compare their take home pay and purchasing power with all other teachers on the face of the earth you would find that they are right up there with the very best paid teachers in the world, but as you say, why take everything into account when there is so much propaganda value to be had by taking a selective view.

I totally disagree. And one cannot focus on any particular issue without being selective to some degree. As to whether this selectiveness amounts to false propaganda is entirely another matter.

Let's look at the price of food in Ireland. You can pay close to three times for a piece of meat in the Republic, compared to what you pay in the North. Property's the same. Look at the price of a car, even a second hand one. How much is a bus ticket here, compared to the North. And let's not forget that the North is no angel with regard to its pricing.

Are teachers earning three times more here in the Republic than they are in the North? Are they earning double? Are they fuck...

Comparing wages between countries is a worthless task when one does not even begin to consider the cost of existing. Throw in the shite services that are mostly non existent and you end up with a State that is capable of outputting nothing but cheap and overt propaganda and begging parasites to come and feed off its citizens. I say cut the price comparisons altogether and use profitibility instead as a marker to define fairness. No fat cat bastards are in danger of starving or losing their homes. Let's see some parity on that and then we'll talk about propaganda.

How's that for being selective?

No worse than your last effort
I prefer facts myself, here’s a few for you.

Republic
Average house price 264,000 Euro
Average teacher pay 47,000 Euro (CSO)
Average take home pay gross less 8% (OECD) 43,200

Average house in the Republic cost 6.1 times teachers average take home salary

NI
Average house price 226,000 Stg.
Average teacher pay 32,200 Stg. (BBC)
Average take home pay gross less 12% (OECD) 28300

Average house in Northern Ireland cost 7.98 times teachers average take home salary

Tonys wrote:

No worse than your last effort
I prefer facts myself, here’s a few for you.

Republic
Average house price 264,000 Euro
Average teacher pay 47,000 Euro (CSO)
Average take home pay gross less 8% (OECD) 43,200

Average house in the Republic cost 6.1 times teachers average take home salary

NI
Average house price 226,000 Stg.
Average teacher pay 32,200 Stg. (BBC)
Average take home pay gross less 12% (OECD) 28300

Average house in Northern Ireland cost 7.98 times teachers average take home salary

You seem to be getting lost within your facts. No fact that you have pointed to has contradicted anything I've said. €264,000 = £238,065 (and that's after Sterling has taken a hammering over the last few months).

The ratios of take home pay and cost of houses have no relationship whatsoever with each other. They simply provide you with a set of figures that makes you feel that you're making a point. They take no consideration whatsoever of the cost of living. Neither do they take into account that the Republic lacks anything that could be described other than as basic, with regard to public services. Furthermore, I picked the North for a reason. Housing in the North, especially Belfast, is more expensive that housing to be found anywhere on mainland Britain, on average.

Methinks you need to rethink your points about being selective, in regard to your own views.

These French protest are based on a similar thing as everywhere - there was looting by Bankers now the people are paying.

The London Indo is asking: How serious is the rioting and can it be calmed...

Quote :

Why are we asking this now?

As the economic consequences of the credit crunch rumble across Europe, producing soaring unemployment rates and falling wages, protesters are taking to the streets in more and more countries to voice their anger.

Like where?

Yesterday saw the first mass demonstrations against the government response – or lack of it – to the economic crisis in France, where, in the biggest protests for many years, more than a million demonstrators turned out across the country, demanding that President Sarkozy do more to stanch the economic bloodletting. Public transport was drastically reduced, and one third of teachers stayed away from their schools. Factory, postal, hospital and many other workers struck. Even some staff at the Paris stock exchange joined the protests.

Why did the strike call produce such a response?

Unemployment in France is soaring at the fastest rate for 15 years, consumer spending has plummeted, and the eight unions which combined forces to stage the protest say the €26bn stimulus package that President Sarkozy announced recently is a woefully inadequate response to the crisis. Nearly 70 per cent of the French population was said be in favour of the protests.

Where did all this start?

The shooting dead of a teenager by a policeman in Athens in December unleashed weeks of violently destructive demonstrations, not only in the Greek capital but across the country. Although sparked by the killing, it became clear that what underlay the protests and made them so large and widespread was the country's galloping economic malaise.


UK Independent

Rioting in Paris too now ???

Handycam
http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=jCNHUBI4xOA

Remember the riots of three or four years ago when they burned cars left right and centre.

You'd think it would begin to occur to governments that people do not want them bailing out banks with outrageous sums of money! 'Calming down' indeed. Jesus, the last thing we want now is to be patronised.

We need an injection of French spirit:

"You have to admire the French. The ordinary people there know how to stick up for themselves – instead of meekly bowing down and accepting whatever bitter gruel the elite tries to cram down their throats. And they don't just write a few angry letters (or blog posts!), or send checks to some worthy progressive organization to organize a few mildly admonishing ads or press releases on their behalf. Hell no, they take to the streets, by the millions, they shut things down, they make some noise, they put their time, their jobs, and their bodies on the line. "

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m51378&hd=&size=1&l=e

It's eh, kinda lucky that Europeans don't have access to guns and live in a gun culture the way ... eh ... Americans do.

If this kind of thing happens in America then we're seeing North v. South all over again. I've an awful feeling in my water ...

Don't let your water break, Auditor...

Well, yiz can add our eastern neighbour to the list of countries in red above....some refinery in Lincolnshire brought in 200 Italian workers on a barge to work on something in the refinery and now half of the UKs energy workers (well, 7 odd refineries and power stations are out on strike)

Gord committed another glorious own goal by speechifying about British jobs for British workers (he is only legally empowered to look for EU jobs for EU workers). In another striking example of New Labours incompetence coming back to haunt him, the refinery where all this kicked off was owned by Total. A rally nice example of why, despite Eurocratic legislation, most of the rest of us chose to keep our energy infrastructure in the hands of national companies or semistates, in our case (ESB/Bord Gais). The C4 news was showing a glorious vision of a BNP van patrolling around with "bail out British workers not the banksters" or similar emblazoned on the side. The striking installations include one in NI. The naivete of the C4 presenter (one of the youngwans,not Jon Snow, tonight) was striking (pardon the pun), he seemed to think the images of strikers and police was "reminiscent of a bygone era". Notably, the strikes appear to have been co-ordinated (7 energy installations at once seems like a bit of a coincidence)

And, folks, this is all about to go nuclear... Sellafield workers are balloting on strike action

Now, where did I put Dillie O'Wee's emergency booklet again??

I'd say wee Willie has already left for the shelter and is incommunicado. Hotels going belly up and comrades (Peter Power) making announcements not based on fact etc. must have wee Willie's nerves at him.



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