We need to find some online versions of these and link to them on the portal. Economics is a predominant theme on this website and the fact that some posters here have evidently had experience in the field sometimes obscures the (more important) fact that the language of economics is gibberish to most people. Perhaps I am more ot of touch with the subject than most because I never hear this complaint echoed by others until I mention it to them (at which point they agree), but I find it remarkable that popular magazines and even daily newspapers talk casually about derivative markets, toxic debt and so forth as if readers know what exactly they're on about. Well I don't, for one, and I'm sure I can't be alone (and if I am, I don't know how or why).

I wonder if there is even a link between the Ecomonics you'd study at undergraduate level and all this jargon? The people most comfortable with the jargon all appear to work in the markets as far as I can tell, and I doubt they all have degrees in Economics.

coc wrote:

I wonder if there is even a link between the Ecomonics you'd study at undergraduate level and all this jargon? The people most comfortable with the jargon all appear to work in the markets as far as I can tell, and I doubt they all have degrees in Economics.

A lot of what gets talked about as economics is actually the work jargon of the financial/trading market.

I've been off and on reading and thinking about it for ages and was going to do an undergraduate degree in it but fell asleep in the first lecture. Too much mathematics introduced too quickly whereas learners could be given the mere basics I'd say.

I think you studied it ibis did you ?

Some here seem to be in business, others are interested in it as a subject. Friends of mine who studied it often have a hard time figuring out how to spend their weeks dole - joke - but they certainly don't want to talk about economics anyway. I tried to spark up a conversation recently with someone and got the reply "You want to know how a country works ? Look at this ... " and she shows me an equation in a book

I find reading John Kenneth Galbraith was as stimulating as it gets for economics and I'd recommend his books. We should possibly try to band together and get an Amadán's Guide to Economics here between a few of us. I could archive a few salient points. Now is a very good time to try to imagine and learn about economic systems as so many fans are getting splattered all over the place.

As for jargon, there's no beating opening your mouth and asking someone what the hell they mean. In fact, I think we should get the guy's name on the ad on the bus and call the Guide after him - the fella who said "I don't know what a tracker mortgage is". The "What's a Tracker Mortgage Guide to Economics". And lastly on jargon, I'd recommend looking at the video in the youtube of the day section with the yellow stars and maybe following the links. It's comedy and funny comedy but contains 110% truth.

And there's no beating giving these things some thought yourself if you can afford the time and energy.

Programme on The Great Crash of 1929 on BBC tonight, if anyone interested...

333 banks went in a week, I think they said.

cactus flower wrote:

Programme on The Great Crash of 1929 on BBC tonight, if anyone interested...

333 banks went in a week, I think they said.

What time ?

See that's what we need now, TV notifications ...

Don't get traders and economists confused. Economists are the lads that advise Brian Cowen. Usually they rely on the government so they really are just financial spinners. Some who do not rely on government come our and warn that say the property bubble is unsustainable. The spinner economists will paint them as fools.

Traders are the lads who put their cash on their opinions like Jimmy Rogers. The sucessfull are billionaires.

There are different types of economics. Most believe in the present set-up. Another branch who get little airtime are what is known as The Austrian School. Peter Shiff is one of those and they are ridiculed by the mainstream economists.

Just read the list of people who advise Lenihan - I saw solicitors, bankers and civil servants but none I knew for sure was an economist.

The Crash is on at 9.00 p.m. tonight.

Are you saying that the people at the top of the ministry of finance are not economists. It wouldn't surprise me indeed in the banana republic

Well since economists can't agree on anything it probably wouldn't do much good for "stability" if we were to pack our government with them.

youngdan wrote:

Are you saying that the people at the top of the ministry of finance are not economists. It wouldn't surprise me indeed in the banana republic

Garret Fitzgerald said last week that the numbers of economists employed by Government dropped from 17 in the 1980s to 3 last year.

Brian Cowen appointed this guy - he runs the Town Planning Institute in UCD full time as his day job.

http://www.ucd.ie/research/people/geogplanningenvpolicy/professorpeterclinch/

youngdan wrote:

Are you saying that the people at the top of the ministry of finance are not economists. It wouldn't surprise me indeed in the banana republic

Be careful what you wish for youndan, none of your Austrian school chums are going to be getting any government posts any time soon so packing the Ministry of Finance with economists may just result in more ridicule.

This is who is advising Lenihan according to today's IT

Padraig O'Riordan - Partner of Arthur Cox Solicitors

"Mr O'Riordan is the independent chairman of the Government's Advisory Forum on Financial Legislation. He is a Director of Paddy Power (!!!!) and TVC Holdings.

Henrietta Baldock - Merrill Lynch (London based)

"Ms Baldock was a member of the Merrill Lynch team that was involved with the world's biggest bank takeover in 2007, Royal Bank of Scotland, Banco Santander, and Fortis bought ABN Amro for 71.2 million, with Merrill Lynch advising the purchasers" Earlier this week RBS said it would be writing off good will of £15-20 billion arisingfrom its purchase of parts of ABN Amro.

David Doyle - Secretary General of the Department of Finance
John Hurley - Governor of Central Bank (Sec Gen of Dept of Finance and Dept of Health before)
Dr Michael Somers - CEP of the National Treasury Management Agency

The others are - Tony Grimes, DG of the Central Bank and Con Horan from the Regulator's office, John Corrigan of the Pensions Reserve Fund and some other civil servants.

How much are this lot getting paid I wonder, and are any of them economists?

One has got to assume these are capable people and doing a decent job. Hurley advised for the gaurantee and Doyle advised against it I guess. I would assume all to be economists.

The person who should not be there is the Merril Person.

Riordan is a legal advisor and Lenahan would not be looking for financial advice from him but instead how to present the financial solution in the proper legal format

David Doyle did study some economics at third level but is a career civil servant who has had his salary paid by the public since 1975, when he was 26.

Quote :

David Doyle (aged 51) is a Graduate of University College, Dublin where he studied Economics, History and Education.

Mr. Doyle entered the Public Service in 1972 having worked in Texaco from 1967. He joined the Department of Finance in 1975 and has worked in the Public Expenditure Division until 1995. He held the position of Assistant Secretary in the Budget and Economic Division from 1995 to 1998 and in the Banking, Finance and International Division from 1999 to date.

2001 Press Release GoI

I can't recommend the book below enough. You can purchase it on Amazon....or you can fully download it from the link below.

http://onebigtorrent.org/torrents/3802/ABCs-of-Political-Economy-Modern-Primer-Robin-Hahnel-pdf

The Abcs Of Political Economy
A Modern Approach

Robin Hahnel
About the Book

Quote :

The ABCs of Political Economy is an accessible introduction to modern political economy. While informed by the work of Marx, Keynes, Veblen, Kalecki and other great political economists, Robin Hahnel teaches the reader the essential tools necessary to understand economic issues today from a modern perspective, searching for ways to replace the economics of competition and greed with the economics of equitable co-operation.

The ABCs of Political Economy empowers people who are dissatisfied with today's economies but are often intimidated by conventional economic analysis.

No previous economics background is assumed, and everything is explained in verbal form in eight core chapters.

Examining the nature of today's economic market, issues of economic justice, macroeconomics and globalization, Robin Hahnel provides an ideal introduction to key economic ideas, offering a critical perspective on our present system and outlining clear alternatives for the future.

Published by Pluto Press. Distributed in the United States by the University of Michigan Press. To view all Pluto Press titles distributed by UMP, click here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robin_Hahnel

Also, here's an interesting presentation on the simple corn model and it summarizes the other models* in it.

http://ec.boisestate.edu/adalton/RPE_Fall2008/ECON%20325.09_ABC.Political.Economy.I.ppt.

Quote :

* The Public Goods Game
o Markets undersupply public goods
* The Price of Power Game
o If power in a relationship is of high value, then efficient changes that reduce power of the most powerful will be blocked.
* The Conflict Theory of the Firm
o Sraffian Surplus Model
o How changes in power relations affect prices, wages and income distribution

You say civil servant as if it's a bad word there cactus.

Good to know that the Secretary General of our Finance Department has a formal education in economics.

That sound interesting Pax. Could I lure you over to take a look at the Book Club thread I just started on Hudson's book? I think it is very accessible too.
His book would be a good read I think, and is there on the thread in pdf.

evercloserunion wrote:

You say civil servant as if it's a bad word there cactus.

Good to know that the Secretary General of our Finance Department has a formal education in economics.

I've been one myself, so I have, I hope a balanced and informed view on what that means.

Someone who has worked for forty years in government departments is maybe a very good person at running government departments and budgeting departmental expenditure, but I see no reason to believe that they would have the breadth of view and experience to be an adviser on the Bank Guarantee and Nationalisation. The Department of Finance is primarily engaged in managing Government spending - "Responsible for the administration of public finance, including, the collection and expenditure of the revenues."

Hopefully, he was not expected to give that kind of advice.

Quote :

John Hurley (aged 54 in 2000) is a Barrister-at-Law and was educated at St Patrick's Academy, Mallow and UCD and Kings Inn.

In 1986 Mr Hurley was appointed Assistant Secretary in the Department of Health and became Secretary General of the Department of Health in January 1990. In 1994 Mr Hurley was appointed Secretary General, Public Service Management and Development, Department of Finance, where he was responsible for all matters relating to the management, organisation, staffing and reform of the public service. Mr Hurley has most recently been involved in detailed negotiations on behalf of the Government on the latest partnership agreement Programme for Prosperity and Fairness.

John Hurley, just reappointed as Governor of the Central Bank, trained as a barrister and is a career civil servant whose main career prior to the Central Bank was the same as Mr.Doyle's - running the budgets of Government Departments.

Where is the experience in global financial systems and the private banking sector?

Cactus, look at the people with experience in the private banking sector. They're all filing for bankruptcy, that is when they're not begging the taxpayer to bail them out. They are the one group worse off and more hated than the government itself. Why on earth you want them calling the shots at a national level is beyond me.

What I said was

Quote :

Where is the experience in global financial systems and the private banking sector

You can read it as "experience of" if you like. The important thing is that the Banks Guarantee had vast highly technical ramifications in terms of international economic and political impacts and national liabilities. There is little sign that Government knew what it was doing that night. I would like to know who advised them to do it and what the advice was based on. They are after all our government: we have a right to know. According to one poster here it was a panic response to the effective bankruptcy of Anglo Irish, which no one believes is a necessary or systemic bank.
I don't know how much John Hurley picked up in his years at the Central Bank. From the Central Bank's performance over the last five years they were no more use in preventing overheating than the Regulator's Office. In that sense the CB is just as tarnished as the private sector.

Economics is as they say an inexact science. This simply means that whatever gibberish they spout is rarely given the chance of being disproved.

The lads with a marxist bent will for example say that Cuba is a success and things are bad because of the US. They have excuses for the Soviet Union collapsing as well and now want to try it again. These are the lads that most posters here like Cactus would listen to.

Then you have the lads preaching the fiat money crony capitalism like now

Then you have the Ausrtrians who are against fiat mone

youngdan wrote:

Economics is as they say an inexact science. This simply means that whatever gibberish they spout is rarely given the chance of being disproved.

The lads with a marxist bent will for example say that Cuba is a success and things are bad because of the US. They have excuses for the Soviet Union collapsing as well and now want to try it again. These are the lads that most posters here like Cactus would listen to.

Then you have the lads preaching the fiat money crony capitalism like now

Then you have the Ausrtrians who are against fiat mone

Jaysus, I would be delighted if "most posters" would like another go at communism: I thought I was the only one.

Economists are poster boys in Ireland these days youngdan. Some of them did quite a bit better than the politicians in spotting that we were the middle of a crash.

All posters except myself, Cookie and maybe Squire are in my view socialists. But we are getting the communism solution here now.

The subsection of economists that understand the markets like Schiff and the Max guy are who needs to be listened to but your method will be tried first